Why isn't Combat firmly cemented as a feature for Ashes?

Atama

George Black wrote: »

Tera... best mmo combat design

I love TERA Online's combat. It just needs to be better-focused, and it desperately needs rebalancing. There are classes that are objectively good, and others that are objectively bad. I dislike a combat system where I have literally a few dozen active skills I need to juggle. TERA Online helps by allowing combo chains to make some skills automatically trigger others (if you hit the right button at the right time), but if you really have to simplify things that much then just merge them together.

It's a great combat system, but it does have its flaws. I think it would be a great starting point for another MMO.

George_Black

I wasnt crazy about the skill selection or classes. My best mate and I were arguing about it. Didnt care for the races either.
Human
Elf
Satyr looking, without the giat legs
Tall, tough, ugly thing
Racoons, bunnies and squirels.
Childlike female race
There was 1 more that is so forgetable. Kinda like the tall tough ugly thing but instead of tough it was a wise race.

But in terms of design:
Movement
Active block/dodge
Interuptions
Counter attacks
Chained actions
Combo actions
Proper animation cancelling (more like skill cancelling if you blocked or dodged)
Impact/weight of attacks
Strong channeling attacks (that you could miss since it was action combat)
Gap closing/opening balance and fair distrubution
Balance between fantasy and realism in combat. No extreme flashy glitter (before the loly exclusive reaper class)

I am sure I forget points that I want to make, but ye, that 2011 mmo has the best combat ever. I CANNOT BELIEVE that nobody just straight up copies them.

And yes, the combat was the only part I liked in that game. Combat design is less than a third of the total strengths of an mmo, but for an ambitious game like AoC we must have a great combat.

Atama

Yeah the combat system is the only reason I play it at all. I don't play it that often either, but I've put a lot of hours into it over the years. My favorite class is Valkyrie, probably with Warrior second. Valkyrie is probably overpowered though, admittedly.

Jonta

Sounds like playing a fighting game all well and good for melee but casters struggle some what with moving targets(cast fire ball target moves you miss) I want to play an mmo not a street fighter game

George_Black

JONTA wrote: »

Sounds like playing a fighting game all well and good for melee but casters struggle some what with moving targets(cast fire ball target moves you miss) I want to play an mmo not a street fighter game

You want to play an mmo, not an fps

falcorpix

JONTA wrote: »

Sounds like playing a fighting game all well and good for melee but casters struggle some what with moving targets(cast fire ball target moves you miss) I want to play an mmo not a street fighter game

If the combat is good casters are not at a disadvantage, projectiles have decent size and there are target skills.
Melees also have to aim their skills, they can miss and have to get close to ranged classes.
Melees have gap closers, ranged has gap openers, both have to aim their skills, theres balance.

I rather miss a fireball because I missaimed or my target dodged, then miss simply because the target has a 15% dodge chance and got lucky.

The same way I rather be able to actively try to dodge a skill and fail, than hope I get lucky with my 15% dodge chance.

Being a "fighting game" doesnt disqualify it as a MMO

Atama

A big part of an RPG is that your character’s stats matter. If your success is based solely on how well you are aiming a fireball, you’re not playing an RPG anymore. You may want an MMO, but you may not want an MMORPG, in which case Ashes is not the game for you.

That being said, I don’t think that’s really the case. You’ve expressed a fondness for TERA Online on the forums, where success is partially based on twitch skills and partially based on character stats. Ashes might work for you to an extent depending on how the hybrid combat ends up.

falcorpix

Nah, ill be fine with whatever AoC ends up being, combat wise.
Plus I never said stats dont matter, stats always matter, RNG defenses or RNG hit chances on the other hand are BS.
Do i prefer action combat where skills matter more than RNG stats? yes.
Can I enjoy more traditional MMORPGs? also yes.

I mean, I dont really have much of a choice really, theres barely any "action combat" MMORPGs
Tera was once great, but in "recent" years turned into daily chores crap and content recycle bin
BDO has amazing combat, but has no content for me, plus p2w and garbage upgrading system
BnS also had decent combat, I dont even remember why I stopped playing it, probably because more daily chores and p2w crap
Elyon was negative budget Tera with BDO trash upgrading system, and of course, more daily chores.
ESO and gw2 were fun for a bit, but never got me to be super invested in them.

So if want to enjoy MMORPGs i have to deal with whatever combat the good games have. Like im playing FFXIV, i don't really like the combat, but it has good content and side activities, so I just have to deal with not liking the combat.

So yeah, Im just waiting for an MMORPG with good combat, good content and no p2w bs. If AoC is that game, great... if not... whatever, i've been there multiple times already.

truelyyy

I'm not sure why people think their ideas around combat have changed, at the core they are still the same which is a hybrid combat system, it's just the details of how far that line is they want to work out. If you want to know roughly what their combat will be play it will be based heavily on Archeage but with some additional action elements such as dodge rolling taken from Gw2 for example. Having played alpha it is slower than archeage which is extremely quick! Also they are still testing different tech to see what is viable in large-scale pvp.

Jonta

Magic Man

It will take some more time. Don't let anyone fool ya, they still have time. MMORPGers are a thirsty crowd. My guess is combat will be somewhat representative of the final iteration in a year or so

Boanergese

Talents wrote: »

Merek wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

The only combat AoC needs is from Tera Online, a 2011 mmo.
Many abilities on hotbar, possibility for chains, action movement and aiming, AC still maintains good visuals (unlike eso), active block/dodge. Best combat ever.

Why it's not cemented yet? Too early. There are other, more basic systems that they need to cement and combat can wait for a few months. We are on a good track.

That isn't something I'd be interested in. This game needs combat that is fresh, some way or another, without it, it'll be dead within a year and everyone will be flocking back to WoW for their boring grind rotation to get their rocks off.

Not really. The type of person that still plays WoW wouldn't be interested in Ashes in the first place.

I played world of warcraft for 15 years and I am very interested in this game.

Vhaeyne

Boanergese wrote: »

I played world of warcraft for 15 years and I am very interested in this game.

What about Ashes makes a WOW guy very interested, just curious.

Boanergese

Rich Campbell and Asmongold had a 2-hour interview with Steve on Allcraft and talked about the game, nodes, sieges, and a lot more. You should watch it if you haven't yet. It was very informative. They spoke about 250 person sieges and explained how many players they have been able to ramp up to already without having any lag for combat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EFcUY_z3pk

Asmongold also had a chance to play in the Alpha in July and streamed some of his experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6Jbe4x5GyY

Vhaeyne

@Boanergese

I have both seen that Allcraft and participated in some Alpha sieges myself.

I just don't see Asmon or Rick loving Ashes that much. There might be some initial excitement around the fact that it's a new MMORPG for them. I just don't see them liking the long term reality of a game where you have to upkeep your progress, and you can lose progress in PvP. Asmon specifically talks about "games that respect your time" a lot. I don't see that being very compatible with Risk vs Reward and the possibility of losing hours of progress to a zerg.

Boanergese

@Vhaeyne

I believe in the video they talked about playing the game Rust and the fact that you could lose items if you killed or got killed. I think Rich also spoke losing XP to a death in one of the games he played and mentioned how it took a week to catch up that XP. I think they understand risk and reward. We also don't know yet the penalties for having housing destroyed in a siege and the cost of rebuilding property. I think when they are talking about respecting time that they hate in world of warcraft how you have to do the daily quests in order to get an item like Renown Levels in wow or the other crap that wastes your time but is necessary for competitive raiding. Steve also mentioned in the interview how he had earned an item in a game and then a couple weeks later the item was available on the store to purchase. That would be similar to Blizzard selling the 5-million-dollar auction mount on its store for $10.

Vhaeyne

Boanergese wrote: »

@Vhaeyne

I believe in the video they talked about playing the game Rust and the fact that you could lose items if you killed or got killed. I think Rich also spoke losing XP to a death in one of the games he played and mentioned how it took a week to catch up that XP. I think they understand risk and reward. We also don't know yet the penalties for having housing destroyed in a siege and the cost of rebuilding property. I think when they are talking about respecting time that they hate in world of warcraft how you have to do the daily quests in order to get an item like Renown Levels in wow or the other crap that wastes your time but is necessary for competitive raiding. Steve also mentioned in the interview how he had earned an item in a game and then a couple weeks later the item was available on the store to purchase. That would be similar to Blizzard selling the 5-million-dollar auction mount on its store for $10.

Yeah, my memory is not great on that whole video. It's been a while.

I just know there have been many times when Asmon was complaining about things in WOW that Ashes does or does harder. Ultimately, only Asmon and Rich can decide if they like Ashes. I just don't see them being really into it long term. If they asked me, I would recommend ESO or GW2 to them before Ashes and I don't even like those games. They just seem more in line with what Asmon and Rich seem to like in an MMORPG.