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Super-resource events.

IronhopeIronhope Member
edited December 2021 in General Discussion
Exploiting resources is generally a pretty boring affair in most mmos.

But what if we took it next level?

What if not all resources were easy to exploit as a solo player?

What if some resources could only be exploited by groups of players working together to run a relatively lentghy opperation which also alters other players of the opperation?

For example, let's say certain segments of random underground tunnels/mountain tunnels could spawn Mines? That could only be exploited, for example, by a team of players each with his own profession?

For example

- 10 miners to actually exploit the precious metals as the event is ongoing
- 2 lumberjacks to clear out the corrupt roots so that the event can go on and time isnt wasted
- 2 builder to reinforce the mine shafts so they dont collapse during the event, killing miners and slowing progress
- 1 scribe belonging to a certain specific religion to make holy scrolls to tormented spirits of dead miners don't spawn to attack miners and slow down progress.
- 1 alchemist to make potions against toxic mold so miners dont get debuffed etc.

And players would have to prepare in advance, to bring the right amount of lumber to reinforce the mine shafts, the right types of ink and paper for the right wards, the correct type of lumberjack to fight a certain type of plant roots, etc

When the event would be initiated by a group of players, an altert would be made by the mine so other groups of players would know about whats going on, leading to fights between groups of friends/allies over the resource point.

At the end of the event, the gathered resources would be put in a large box and will only be collectable after 10 minutes for example. Another area altert would be put out, allerting other groups of players of the status of the event. Anyone who channels the box for 20 seconds without being attacked can claim the box, after said 10 minutes, and take the resources gathered during the event. So it will be a PvEvP event.

Many more examples of such events could exist.

Corrupt Yggdrasil (event where a huge corrupt tree can be cut).

Putrid Dragon (event where a huge dragon died of natural causes and can be skinned)

Astral Event that can only be witnessed from one mountain top (event where scribes can make super-scrolls to help in Sieges, Raids, etc)

Event where a portal to another dimension opens (event where special creatures can be tamed by the group claiming the portal)

etc

I would love such a system implemented into the game becaus it would

1. It would give players another reason to periodically go out there in the world and explore it.
2. It would give players another reason to be more sociable.
3. It would lead to more world pvp.
4. It would make professions more relevant.

etc

As far as I'm aware (haven't played that many mmos to be honest) no other mmo does anything like that.

I would love to see Ashes take old-school mmo elements and take them to the next level, to do well.

What do you guys think ?






Comments

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    Sounds similar to dungeoneering in runescape. Which isn't a bad thing.
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    unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Mines and periodic large resource spawns are already planned. The gathering systems shown in previous alphas were placeholder. The intention is to have resources that appear randomly after depleted. This has various effects on gameplay, one of them to reduce scripted afk/bots. Here is an answer from early in development on their philosophy towards gathering and how it works for large group interaction. A sort of placeable harvester a la SWG has also been mentioned, but never confirmed as making the cut.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=STUmnHRKqNc&t=624s&ab_channel=AshesofCreationWiki
    south-park-rabble-rabble-rabbl-53b58d315aa49.jpg
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    I actually love this idea. Definitely community building and a perfect mechanic to incite conflict between guilds.
    GJjUGHx.gif
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    Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    i like the idea of communal gathering
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    Mines and periodic large resource spawns are already planned. The gathering systems shown in previous alphas were placeholder. The intention is to have resources that appear randomly after depleted. This has various effects on gameplay, one of them to reduce scripted afk/bots. Here is an answer from early in development on their philosophy towards gathering and how it works for large group interaction. A sort of placeable harvester a la SWG has also been mentioned, but never confirmed as making the cut.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=STUmnHRKqNc&t=624s&ab_channel=AshesofCreationWiki

    You're right, sounds like they are planning something like I just suggested but the way they explained is rather vague and it doesn't involve the ''players of different professions'' part for example.

    What do you think about the more detailed system I suggested?
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    I love this idea too! Amazing!
    I like it being an event, but maybe not public event where everyone got a message about it. I would like to find the event randomly and then call out for friends and guildies to help sneak it away or to the town node. Then the pvp encounter would happen; or not happen, depending on anyone seeing it. And they would also have to gather friends on the spot to help pvp. Just a thought. love the idea tho. love it
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    Olli1992 wrote: »
    I like it being an event, but maybe not public event where everyone got a message about it.

    The role of the altert message in my suggestion is that it would lead to pvp battles as the event is ongoing and when the event is over and resources are to be claimed.

    The world is likely going to be massive by mmo-rpg standards (that's a selling point of UE5) and without an altert the chances of groups of players fighting over the event are slim.
    Olli1992 wrote: »
    I would like to find the event randomly and then call out for friends and guildies to help sneak it away or to the town node. Then the pvp encounter would happen; or not happen, depending on anyone seeing it.:.

    I could see a system like that working too.

    For example:

    The event's future spawn location can be seen for several days before the start of the event. So guilds and groups of friends have time to scout for such events and know in advance when they spawn.

    Sure, I could find this second suggestion more than decent as well.



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    tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    L2 used to have something similar undead would spawn in groups of various strengths and could be spoiled and killed for decent rewards. There was a server wide announcement at spawn times.

    I found a spawn location in a remote valley where I could clear them all myself, very enriching.
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I like it. Having to gather the guild or node to collect stuff once in a while seems like a fun way to add group content to the game.
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    Nerror wrote: »
    I like it. Having to gather the guild or node to collect stuff once in a while seems like a fun way to add group content to the game.

    What I would love is to see the world being constantly searched again and again with excitement every time, in this game excitement birthed from the chance of finding such an event.

    Also, I feel like in many mmo-rpgs profesisons just aren't as relevant as they could be as often as they could be and that players no longer interract based on their professions but only based on their classes/specs.

    With this suggested economic-event/pvp-hybrid system, players would not only form groups based on their archetypes but also based on their professions.
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    This is easy and you already have in other mmorpgs, like albion, where you have world bosses that usually spawn randomly on an specific biome, like for example a big tree monster like lord of the rings, that you need a big group to kill to log their wood... Or in ice areas an Mineral golum
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    Ramirez wrote: »
    This is easy and you already have in other mmorpgs, like albion, where you have world bosses that usually spawn randomly on an specific biome, like for example a big tree monster like lord of the rings, that you need a big group to kill to log their wood... Or in ice areas an Mineral golum

    Ramirez, as I said, the point of this system is that grouping is no longer purely about dps + tank + healer but about profesion 1 + profesion 2 + profesion 3 + profesion 4.

    That's the main pillar of this event.

    Colaborating not to heal/dps/tank in unison but use profesions in unison.

    In the example I gave, sure, PvP is a main aspect (AOC is a PvP focused game and I love it) and if some players of a profession don't do their job NPCS spawn to slow down progress requiring combat to remove.

    But the whole thing is about professions more than anything.
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    This is a great idea! My bit to add as it was touched on is about visibility and access to knowledge. Perhaps if you are within a node's boundaries, (Zone of Influence) - then perhaps you then have the "knowledge" of any existing events and can see it on the map. As mines are considered to be "contested" potentially, I would like the value of these to make them more worthwhile to go for, as opposed to sticking to farming routes.

    Events happening in other Nodes might not show unless you enter that node, or perhaps there could be a means to "share knowledge" (think cartography - though I am not sure if this will be a thing of course nothing on the wiki afaik but could be a method of sharing information).

    I think some events should be of "global significance" and so the whole world will be notified and the map can be updated, while others are of "national significance" and will only update when you enter a node, or perhaps if you enter a city, or maybe there could be "news stalls" to add additional points to update your map within a node.

    Or perhaps this is all a bit much, and need not exist, or entering a node could be enough but as we know that we won't have access to all information on the map, I like to think of ways that this information sharing could/will be limited.
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    neuroguyneuroguy Member
    edited January 2022
    Not really sure how the 'now anyone can loot the reward by channeling it for 20s' will play out, it seems a bit strange to have the loot for someone's hard work up for arbitrary grabbing (then it becomes more centered around the PvP and who gets the pot at the end). Otherwise though, I really like it. I do think keeping the announcement more local is a good thing.

    I also am not sure if knowing the requirements for the event beforehand is a good thing. Players will just stockpile and be ready to go way ahead of time removing the 'gold rush' feel a bit. I think having some variability and randomness of what professions are required will be good as guilds and parties scramble to assemble an appropriate group to tackle it quickly. I like the idea of some random woodcutter suddenly being in super high demand because he/she was in the right area and a few groups needed him/her to round out their party for the event (that facilitates community building and meeting new players a bit more too I think). So then this way, the event would be announced, there would be some scouting component where you can identify what professions are needed, then the scout can report to the guild (or put our false information to others) and an appropriate group can be assembled.
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    neuroguy wrote: »
    Not really sure how the 'now anyone can loot the reward by channeling it for 20s' will play out, it seems a bit strange to have the loot for someone's hard work up for arbitrary grabbing (then it becomes more centered around the PvP and who gets the pot at the end).

    Group competitivity is the very nature of the arguably niche game called Ashes of Creation.

    World bosses? One can do the whole hard PvE work but end up being wiped by another group of players who will claim the loot.

    Open World Instances (as I understand many will be)? One can do the whole hard PvE work but end up being wiped by another group of players who will claim the loot.

    Nodes? PvP.

    Caravans? PvP.

    So forth.

    Its a niche game.

    I love it, some won't and I can respect that.

    But there's nothing arbitrary (random, a whim) in it.
    neuroguy wrote: »
    I also am not sure if knowing the requirements for the event beforehand is a good thing. Players will just stockpile and be ready to go way ahead of time removing the 'gold rush' feel a bit. I think having some variability and randomness of what professions are required will be good as guilds and parties scramble to assemble an appropriate group to tackle it quickly.

    I like your suggestion and totally agree with it.

    +1
    neuroguy wrote: »
    So then this way, the event would be announced

    I would prefer if events were not announced and the signs of them spawning several hours/days simply appeared.

    I like the idea of people constantly re-exploring the world in the hopes of treasure again and again.
    It would be a sincere pleasant exploration and not something you are forced to do.

    If you announce it, even if people have to come by to see what it will require, that just dies out.

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    CROW3CROW3 Member
    edited January 2022
    Yes - and (just to be pedantic) everything is PvX. The specific places you note as ‘pvp’ are places where corruption has been suspended, there isn’t a pve box and a pvp box.
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    tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The 'announcement', which may happen or not depending on the event, does not need to be a traditional server group of words flashing across all screens. It could be a more 'in world' happening. Examples could be:

    - All the wildlife fleeing an area prior to the Undead appearing
    - Streams and rivers dropping to trickles before the Fire Giant arrives
    - Lakes and rivers freezing over as the Ice Beast approaches
    - Low ground becoming swampy and frogs swarming when the River Monster nears
    - Tulnar growing even more hair and abscesses appearing on their buttocks as the Rock Monster claws its way to the surface

    So clever players who keep their eyes open will get the 'announcement' while the duller among us might never notice and respond.
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    yeah that's what I meant with ''annoncement'' in the context of events spawning tautau, players having to explor the world to see if they cant spot such signs and then coming back to inform their group that they got a few hours or days to prepare

    however, when it comes to PvP I admit I had somehting like the world chat being alterted in script.... I admit

    I could agree to a far more visual signs in the world in regards to the PvP annoucement tho, but unless they will be very notable it's likely they won't usually have much of an effect as the world of AOC doesn't seem to be a small one at all
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    neuroguyneuroguy Member
    edited January 2022
    Ironhope wrote: »
    Group competitivity is the very nature of the arguably niche game called Ashes of Creation.

    World bosses? One can do the whole hard PvE work but end up being wiped by another group of players who will claim the loot.

    Open World Instances (as I understand many will be)? One can do the whole hard PvE work but end up being wiped by another group of players who will claim the loot.

    Nodes? PvP.

    Caravans? PvP.

    So forth.

    Its a niche game.

    I love it, some won't and I can respect that.

    But there's nothing arbitrary (random, a whim) in it.

    I get that but even looting rights are going to take into account the amount of damage you/your party did. In a lot of the examples you give there is a mutual understanding that damage and combat is how players are being pit against one another. In your proposed mechanic, you ask people for crafting expertise but why would I gather the right crafters instead of a large group of strong combatants and just wait until the work is done? Having the loot be determined at the end from PvP with no regards to the crafting/profession work required to acquire it does not at all incentivize crafters to participate. Then it is just a brawl after some people get together. On the other hand if the reward is based on the profession work done (similar to how dps is used to determine looting rights), people will still utilize PvP to stop others from doing the crafting or defend their teamates so they can do the crafting bit. You can even still have the pot in the middle (although I think I personally prefer not to) but only the players who contributed can loot a significant portion of the resources and random players can only collect a small amount. That way, you will still have your PvP centric brawl but at least those who did the crafting work will have a chance at greater rewards.
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    IronhopeIronhope Member
    edited January 2022
    neuroguy wrote: »
    I get that but even looting rights are going to take into account the amount of damage you/your party did.

    Did they say that explicitly? Because there are a ton of looting systems.
    Even if that's the case if your group was wiped on the boss and another one is camping it I doubt you will be able to even loot the boss unless you got a bubble.

    My point was that this is the way the philosophy of the game is, either way.
    neuroguy wrote: »
    In your proposed mechanic, you ask people for crafting expertise but why would I gather the right crafters instead of a large group of strong combatants and just wait until the work is done?

    For the same reason you will try a caravan transport or to build a civilization (node) even tho a large group of strong combatants could just come and wipe it all and loot it all.

    It's a risk, and it should be.

    It's danger what makes adventure adventure and it's scarcity which makes valuables valuable and it's emotion that makes immersion immersion.

    Yes there would be a lot of competitivity and you can bet the same groups who would come prepared with all the right matterials and professions would be the same who would come with enough ''muscle'' to ward off ''kill thieves'' and griefers.

    At the end of the day tho I agree making the pvp aspect of the game too extreme would be bad but I doub this would fit in the ''too extreme'' as it's nothing above caravan pvp and very far from the level of risk (of losing investment) that nodes are.

    I guess a beta would, however, decide which of us 2 is right on the matter.

    I hope the devs were reading, liked what they read here and that we will see such events in it (the beta).
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    Ironhope wrote: »
    Did they say that explicitly? Because there are a ton of looting systems.
    Even if that's the case if your group was wiped on the boss and another one is camping it I doubt you will be able to even loot the boss unless you got a bubble.

    Directly from the wiki:
    Looting rights (also known as Loot tagging) is based on a tag and DPS (damage) system.
    • The first party to obtain a tag (on a mob or boss) will require approximately 40% or more of the total DPS to be granted looting rights.
    • Parties who do not have the first tag will be required to do more than approximately 60% of the total DPS to quality for looting rights.
    So no actually, you can't camp out a party and just snipe the loot from under them. You can prevent them from looting by killing them and protecting the corpse but your opportunity for getting looting rights was at the beginning/during the fight not after/at the end.
    Ironhope wrote: »
    For the same reason you will try a caravan transport or to build a civilization (node) even tho a large group of strong combatants could just come and wipe it all and loot it all.

    This is not at all the same thing. In your system, there is only 1 outcome outside of failure: someone completes the objective. Transporting goods is something you do for profit, you can choose any node, any resources or even to keep them in that node. Nodes are an even worse example, if you don't build up a node, it may get locked out of progression. Do you see the degrees of freedom that exists with these? Taking risks here makes sense because there are many possible outcomes (even without PvP) so you can try to achieve an outcome that without your risk, may not come about as many other outcomes are possible, and then PvP can come and mess up your plan but you know, AoC and all.
    On the other hand the super resource event only has 1 degree of freedom so as a player, I don't have to worry about trying to push the outcome to my desired one. That means you are asking crafters to take on extra risk relative to vultures who just get a PvP group going, without gaining any increased probability at reward. So based on your own logic, why would you force some to take on more risk with equal chance at reward? Unless you make the super resource event variable also in its outcome (i.e. you get to choose if you mine limited platinum OR gold but not both) but that could cause disagreement with the party that is gathering, and adds a lot of other variables. The more sensible solution is to make the looting similar to the looting rights quoted from the wiki and have people loot whatever % they contribute (so those who take on the risk to do the crafting will get more reward). You do not need to further incentivize PvP by having a pot at the end for people to grab, the desire to contribute more to the crafting IS the incentive for PvP on its own as parties will try to kill each others' crafters and protect their own to get more of the loot at the end.
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    IronhopeIronhope Member
    edited January 2022
    (quotes won't work for me again, I don't know why sometimes they refuse, I guess it might be the device I'm writing this from)

    Okay, fair enough, so you can't come at the last moment to steal the kill but still you could wipe the group and camp the corpse until it disappears to grif the enemy group.

    Looking at how group politics and backstab driven the game will be I'm ready to bet stuff like this will be a common occourance.

    Regarding caravan risk. I mean, with caravans one group does the whole work of going out there in the world, gathering the valuables, putting them in a caravan for transport and then another predatorial group can just come and steal the valuables/part of them.

    It's pretty much the same thing.

    Regarding nodes, I mean, similarly, just as you could ignore a node and not even build it you could ignore a resource event and just not even get involved.

    But that's not what I meant.

    In the case of Nodes it's going to be a pretty huge investment from a group or another.

    And all this investment can just get wiped by another group(s) just like that.
    That's what I meant (sorry if I wasn't clear).

    I agree with the suggestion that the defending group, the one doing all the professions work, should be given extra reward.

    As for the risk involved, any group could just wait as well and see who blinks first.

    I imagine that's how PvX open world instances will look like as well.

    Several groups sitting at the enterance of an open world dungeon/raid waiting to see who risks going in first having the other group(s) behind their back.

    Finally, isn't it the case with Ashes that you can't transport large amounts of materials yourself from A to B but need a caravan?
    That's what I was evoking.

    The event's nature in the given example is that a large amount of resources will be gathered.... so it will need to be transported via caravan/mules anyway (I don't even know why I gave the example with the ''big exposed box that needs defended via pvp for X minutes, since the caravan/multes trip is basically that).

    So yes, I actually want to correct my example as well

    Most events should end with a caravan full of resources claimed by a group leaving towards their node with PvP being a possibility like with all caravans.



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    tldr: I can accept your suggestion at the end.
    Ironhope wrote: »
    Okay, fair enough, so you can't come at the last moment to steal the kill but still you could wipe the group and camp the corpse until it disappears to grif the enemy group.
    Not quite as a corpse run won't work the same as for example WoW (people spawn somewhere else and have to travel to their death location). But yes in principle you could block out an entire raid from looting or more realistically at least prevent the harvesting of the boss.
    Ironhope wrote: »
    Regarding caravan risk. I mean, with caravans one group does the whole work of going out there in the world, gathering the valuables, putting them in a caravan for transport and then another predatorial group can just come and steal the valuables/part of them.

    It's pretty much the same thing.

    Regarding nodes, I mean, similarly, just as you could ignore a node and not even build it you could ignore a resource event and just not even get involved.
    My issue with this is what you address at the end but essentially in both these cases, you still have a default ownership that is earned by some merit but that may change hands through PvP. Critically though, those who earned it by merit don't ever lose 100% of their work, they can be looted for some % of it, never all (unless corruption blah blah). Not that PvP is some underhanded tactic, that's just the game but you know what I mean.
    Ironhope wrote: »
    So yes, I actually want to correct my example as well

    Most events should end with a caravan full of resources claimed by a group leaving towards their node with PvP being a possibility like with all caravans.
    That seems like a reasonable compromise, the caravan is claimed by one party already and the default outcome is they get all that loot. But otherwise, other players can attack and try to take some of that loot (and get bonus looting % if they did some of the crafting themselves or something like that). The original owning party will never lose 100% of their loot (should have some gauranteed reward for doing the most crafting and the PvP that was involved with it). That sounds reasonable and thematically appropriate although again, I think there would be sufficient PvP around the event without it but I wouldn't hate this either.
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    In the end I don't see why events can't be significantly different from eachothers in mechanics too, with the devs finding out what kind of event people like more based on practice, not to mention that diversity is a huge bonus by itself

    Assuming that the devs are even reading this and intend to implement the idea of group-profession based content
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    I think we all would like to see something like this being added in one way or another. And i hope they do, so we can give feedback in A2 or b1
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    daveywaveydaveywavey Member
    edited January 2022
    neuroguy wrote: »
    Directly from the wiki:
    Looting rights (also known as Loot tagging) is based on a tag and DPS (damage) system.
    • The first party to obtain a tag (on a mob or boss) will require approximately 40% or more of the total DPS to be granted looting rights.
    • Parties who do not have the first tag will be required to do more than approximately 60% of the total DPS to quality for looting rights.

    I'd been wondering about this. So, what if there are three parties attacking the boss? The first gets 35%, the second gets 35%, and the third gets 30%. None of them get anything for killing the boss?

    Is the only way to get anything to focus the third party first before killing the boss, and risk the second party leaving you to it to increase their damage percentage?
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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    IronhopeIronhope Member
    edited January 2022
    daveywavey wrote: »
    I'd been wondering about this. So, what if there are three parties attacking the boss? The first gets 35%, the second gets 35%, and the third gets 30%. None of them get anything for killing the boss?

    Is the only way to get anything to focus the third party first before killing the boss, and risk the second party leaving you to it to increase their damage percentage?

    People are going to grief bosses anyway just for the sake of it/for politics, even if they get nothing in terms of loot.

    So the % limit for getting loot is probably not going to even influence things as much.
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