I think an important part of the video is at the start when Steven reiterated this is a systems test and not a content test.
Not crapping on people as we are seeing a large influx of new names (which is amazing and welcome) but a lot of new people see the videos either from Intrepid or someone else. Sometimes people don't clarify this point so first time eyeballs seeing the game think they are further along then they are.
Agree, @bloodprophet, new forum-goers are certainly welcome. But that doesn't mean they're exempt from using the forums search feature every once in awhile ... given the surplus of recent threads on the issue.
Last week in another similar discussion, one of the Ashes Mods said Beta was the appropriate time for review and discussion on animations. We haven't even begun Alpha-2 yet (hopefully the OP is reading the entire thread).
Maybe it´s been a lack of talent/competence in that area or technical stuff compatibility issues with some aspects like IK animations or notifiers
This is entirely possible - but then, why would you hire the people you want for finishing touches before you are ready for those finishing touches?
Regardless of whether they have the ability on staff right now, these are the kinds of things that need to be done near the end of development, not years out.
You work on those finishing touches when you know you have the basic general movements of each animation sorted. Any work done to finish an animation that is then discarded is wasted work.
I love to see people show some passion and speak up about aspects of Ashes that they aren't happy with, especially if they acknowledge that the game is in Alpha. For me, it reads like a list of things they would hope to be addressed by the end of Alpha 2. Sometimes there's a counter opinion, but for the most part
In the December 2021 UE5 walkthrough there's a point where Steven jumps down from an overhang, turns around and looks up briefly to see a visual effect of the triffids (is that their name?) glitching through the solid rock scenery. There's plenty of released games out there with worse visual glitches, but I would hope that kind minor visual infidelity would be removed from Ashes in one of the later passes.
I'd expect that most if not all animations will be improved before and during Alpha2 test phases. @Jahlon mentioned a great idea the other day; when more Archetypes are prepared resurrect Apoc as a testing environment for combat, give players/teams set character builds/load-outs and generate feedback for what works and what doesn't.
Maybe it´s been a lack of talent/competence in that area or technical stuff compatibility issues with some aspects like IK animations or notifiers
This is entirely possible - but then, why would you hire the people you want for finishing touches before you are ready for those finishing touches?
Regardless of whether they have the ability on staff right now, these are the kinds of things that need to be done near the end of development, not years out.
You work on those finishing touches when you know you have the basic general movements of each animation sorted. Any work done to finish an animation that is then discarded is wasted work.
I dont quite where the perspective comes from that combat is about "finishing touches".
Combat is the most central, tactile and time absorbing gameplay loop of any mmo.
You do have to build your entire PvE experience that is by far biggest development batch around your combat system.
And im not talking about add some abilities pre-launch, they are not even close to how the fundament of their combat works.
Prototyping for 1 year with hardly any changes and depth of tools you can utilize is kinda ..?
The assumption you’ve made that has led you astray is that Alpha-1 was their most current build.
As a result, you’ve opened the door for yourself to believe you can deduce the state of combat behind closed doors.
The deduction comes from the my impression that intrepid utilizes any kind of progress to market their project. Which is entirely ok.
They would never have released that alpha combat if the had something better on their hand.
This would mean that Intrepid would have given us a combat system to test thoroughly and then scrap it anyway?
There is a build that they are working on in the last few months, for which i dont have any infos.
This build goes in the right direction as i did show with my 2 clips.
And im not talking about add some abilities pre-launch, they are not even close to how the fundament of their combat works.
Yeah, and they are 3 years or so away from release.
A combat system isn't a thing you just add in one go. You get some basics in game and you refine and expand, then you refine and expand, then you refine and expand.
Intrepid do have the fundamentals. They just need to refine and expand on them.
The problem is not the animations in this stage, the problem is people blindly defending IS and shutting down any kind of questions about it. I asked for someone with knowledge on the subject to explain when is a good time to start working on the animations.
The responses i got were:
"How you dare talk about this?"
"This is alpha"
"Don't talk about this"
"This is alpha"
"Leave it to the professionals"
This forum community always concescending and truly hurtful for the game. Stop shutting down questions and constructive criticism.
The problem is not the animations in this stage, the problem is people blindly defending IS and shutting down any kind of questions about it. I asked for someone with knowledge on the subject to explain when is a good time to start working on the animations.
The responses i got were:
"How you dare talk about this?"
"This is alpha"
"Don't talk about this"
"This is alpha"
"Leave it to the professionals"
This forum community always concescending and truly hurtful for the game. Stop shutting down questions and constructive criticism.
The problem is that what you perceive as "constructive criticism" was actually "You're doing it wrong, Intrepid. I think you should be doing it like this. And, I've absolutely no clue about this and have nothing to back it up."
Your phrase was: "I honestly don't know much about game design"
So, why should your "constructive criticism" be worth anything on this one particular topic? It's as pointless as my idea of what they should work on, cos I've no experience of game design either.
It's absolutely worth something when you're answering their questions in the Dev Discussions and the like, but when you're telling them that they're doing their job wrong, and you have no evidence or experience to back that up, that isn't "constructive criticism". It's just plain unhelpful.
You got plenty of reasonable answers, which you've clearly chosen to ignore since you think you only got the above answers. Your question was even answered before you asked it. It's people like you that have made Steven have to say before every single video: "This is just current alpha animations, it's not the final thing!"
Yes, I said "I don't know much about game design" to make clear my own opinion is based on ignorance, because im asking for answers for everyone! answers from someone who really knows about this stuff.
Not you telling me to shut up for asking something, alright dude?
Yes, I said "I don't know much about game design" to make clear my own opinion is based on ignorance, because im asking for answers for everyone! answers from someone who really knows about this stuff.
Not you telling me to shut up for asking something, alright dude?
Two things…
1) Everyone knows that the animations need to be improved. The developers have said they will be. They’ve explained in the very videos where they are showing progress that the animations are very early and are barely past the defaults that came packaged with UE4. So why talk about something everyone knows and acknowledges, including the developers actually making them?
2) Based on #1, what do you think is the appropriate response to people who insist the game will be a failure because the animations are clunky? Should we support them because we want to be a welcoming community? Nod and play dumb and hand them torches and pitchforks? Or should the facts be explained at the risk of someone thinking that the community is condescending?
Personally, I try not to jump down anyone’s throats but it doesn’t matter. If someone has an opinion and someone else disagrees, then that person is the enemy. That’s the attitude of a lot of people who come to the board and rant out of ignorance.
If you need experience in game design to give constructive criticism, then the vast majority of this forum should stay quiet.
As OP seems to understand it's an alpha, they may criticize as much as they like.
There's a biiiiig difference between giving actual constructive criticism and telling them how to do their jobs.
Saying: "I don't like the fireball animation where the character jumps into the air, because it doesn't feel right" is constructive criticism.
Saying: "You should be working on fluidity of movement before networking, engine migration, prototyping combat, design, render optimization, node simulating, and other core functions" is telling them how to do their job, and is NOT constructive criticism.
AncientIncant's post:
"I don’t think they are at that stage yet my friend.
It appears as Intrepid is working on networking, engine migration, prototyping combat, design, render optimization, node simulating, and other core functions.
We all saw the obvious. As Barrakus said, “There is still a long way to go. I expect they will put some focus on that at some point.”"
Marcet's post in reply:
"AncientIncant
The question is, when its time to work on that?
Everytime someone mentions something about the animations people claim that this is alpha. Well I think the first thing they should work on is fluidity of movement in the game, good gameplay, and then the world. I honestly don't know much about game design but its important to disscus this, and with people that understands what they talk about."
TL:DR
Constructive Criticism = Good
Criticism in general = Can still be good
Telling the development studio what order to plan their workload = Not good.
I feel it's not as well known although the information is publicly available though you wouldn't look for it, but Intrepid are and have been hiring for a Senior Technical Animator for a little while now. I am sure that Steven with his high bar of standard when recruiting for any role is being selective but if he is recruiting for this role, then it tells me that they (Intrepid Studios) are aware of the need for improvement in animations - so much so that they are looking for an experienced Senior to somewhat lead the bridge here. This gives me some hope that we will see improvement once this role is filled and I mean, if you have animators working for 2-3 years before the game releases on just animation, then I am sure that will be a good amount of time to improve the base standard here.
For what it's worth, I thought the vaulting looked pretty good, that being a somewhat new animation that we have seen.
I agree with the consensus that while yes, the game is in Alpha, criticism at this stage can't be helped. I do wish that there were some stickied posts with an FAQ for newcomers in all of the social media platforms, but it is what it is.
Comments
The rest of the game looks incredible though. Better than New World.
Agree, @bloodprophet, new forum-goers are certainly welcome. But that doesn't mean they're exempt from using the forums search feature every once in awhile ... given the surplus of recent threads on the issue.
Last week in another similar discussion, one of the Ashes Mods said Beta was the appropriate time for review and discussion on animations. We haven't even begun Alpha-2 yet (hopefully the OP is reading the entire thread).
Regardless of whether they have the ability on staff right now, these are the kinds of things that need to be done near the end of development, not years out.
You work on those finishing touches when you know you have the basic general movements of each animation sorted. Any work done to finish an animation that is then discarded is wasted work.
In the December 2021 UE5 walkthrough there's a point where Steven jumps down from an overhang, turns around and looks up briefly to see a visual effect of the triffids (is that their name?) glitching through the solid rock scenery. There's plenty of released games out there with worse visual glitches, but I would hope that kind minor visual infidelity would be removed from Ashes in one of the later passes.
I'd expect that most if not all animations will be improved before and during Alpha2 test phases. @Jahlon mentioned a great idea the other day; when more Archetypes are prepared resurrect Apoc as a testing environment for combat, give players/teams set character builds/load-outs and generate feedback for what works and what doesn't.
I dont quite where the perspective comes from that combat is about "finishing touches".
Combat is the most central, tactile and time absorbing gameplay loop of any mmo.
You do have to build your entire PvE experience that is by far biggest development batch around your combat system.
And im not talking about add some abilities pre-launch, they are not even close to how the fundament of their combat works.
The deduction comes from the my impression that intrepid utilizes any kind of progress to market their project. Which is entirely ok.
They would never have released that alpha combat if the had something better on their hand.
This would mean that Intrepid would have given us a combat system to test thoroughly and then scrap it anyway?
There is a build that they are working on in the last few months, for which i dont have any infos.
This build goes in the right direction as i did show with my 2 clips.
A combat system isn't a thing you just add in one go. You get some basics in game and you refine and expand, then you refine and expand, then you refine and expand.
Intrepid do have the fundamentals. They just need to refine and expand on them.
The responses i got were:
"How you dare talk about this?"
"This is alpha"
"Don't talk about this"
"This is alpha"
"Leave it to the professionals"
This forum community always concescending and truly hurtful for the game. Stop shutting down questions and constructive criticism.
The problem is that what you perceive as "constructive criticism" was actually "You're doing it wrong, Intrepid. I think you should be doing it like this. And, I've absolutely no clue about this and have nothing to back it up."
Your phrase was: "I honestly don't know much about game design"
So, why should your "constructive criticism" be worth anything on this one particular topic? It's as pointless as my idea of what they should work on, cos I've no experience of game design either.
It's absolutely worth something when you're answering their questions in the Dev Discussions and the like, but when you're telling them that they're doing their job wrong, and you have no evidence or experience to back that up, that isn't "constructive criticism". It's just plain unhelpful.
You got plenty of reasonable answers, which you've clearly chosen to ignore since you think you only got the above answers. Your question was even answered before you asked it. It's people like you that have made Steven have to say before every single video: "This is just current alpha animations, it's not the final thing!"
Not you telling me to shut up for asking something, alright dude?
As OP seems to understand it's an alpha, they may criticize as much as they like.
Two things…
1) Everyone knows that the animations need to be improved. The developers have said they will be. They’ve explained in the very videos where they are showing progress that the animations are very early and are barely past the defaults that came packaged with UE4. So why talk about something everyone knows and acknowledges, including the developers actually making them?
2) Based on #1, what do you think is the appropriate response to people who insist the game will be a failure because the animations are clunky? Should we support them because we want to be a welcoming community? Nod and play dumb and hand them torches and pitchforks? Or should the facts be explained at the risk of someone thinking that the community is condescending?
Personally, I try not to jump down anyone’s throats but it doesn’t matter. If someone has an opinion and someone else disagrees, then that person is the enemy. That’s the attitude of a lot of people who come to the board and rant out of ignorance.
There's a biiiiig difference between giving actual constructive criticism and telling them how to do their jobs.
Saying: "I don't like the fireball animation where the character jumps into the air, because it doesn't feel right" is constructive criticism.
Saying: "You should be working on fluidity of movement before networking, engine migration, prototyping combat, design, render optimization, node simulating, and other core functions" is telling them how to do their job, and is NOT constructive criticism.
AncientIncant's post:
"I don’t think they are at that stage yet my friend.
It appears as Intrepid is working on networking, engine migration, prototyping combat, design, render optimization, node simulating, and other core functions.
We all saw the obvious. As Barrakus said, “There is still a long way to go. I expect they will put some focus on that at some point.”"
Marcet's post in reply:
"AncientIncant
The question is, when its time to work on that?
Everytime someone mentions something about the animations people claim that this is alpha. Well I think the first thing they should work on is fluidity of movement in the game, good gameplay, and then the world. I honestly don't know much about game design but its important to disscus this, and with people that understands what they talk about."
TL:DR
Constructive Criticism = Good
Criticism in general = Can still be good
Telling the development studio what order to plan their workload = Not good.
For what it's worth, I thought the vaulting looked pretty good, that being a somewhat new animation that we have seen.
I agree with the consensus that while yes, the game is in Alpha, criticism at this stage can't be helped. I do wish that there were some stickied posts with an FAQ for newcomers in all of the social media platforms, but it is what it is.