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Dev Discussion #39 - Griefing

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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Maezriel wrote: »
    @Wandering Mist I think it's this part "Spawn camping? Not griefing."

    Most would likely agree that being camped in one spot until you're only option is to log off would be griefing. WoW has been spectacularly bad about not realizing that there shouldn't be anytime where another player can shut down your experience in the game so hard that you literally have to leave for a few hours just for a chance to return to playing.

    Especially in regards to a game that you pay monthly for.

    See, I don't see it that way. To me, spawn camping is an opportunity. If you find yourself being targeted by someone, you call for help from your friends/guild/random passers-by. So your allies appear to help you and drive away your attackers. Those players then call for backup from their own friends/guilds and suddenly you have a full on PvP battle. Some of the greatest open-world PvP moments start this way.

    That's why I don't consider spawn-camping to be griefing.
    Wandering Mist

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  • If you find yourself being targeted by someone, you call for help from your friends/guild/random passers-by. So your allies appear to help you and drive away your attackers.

    That's all very well with fast travel systems, but how fast will they get to you in AoC?
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ask 100 people what griefing is and get 100 different definitions.

    In a PvX game what is griefing, for me it would probably be limited to killing low levels near the starting areas. The rest is pretty much fair game in AOC. If PvX worries people make some friends join a guild don't be a victim.
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    Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
  • ChimeChime Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Maezriel wrote: »
    @Wandering Mist I think it's this part "Spawn camping? Not griefing."

    Most would likely agree that being camped in one spot until you're only option is to log off would be griefing. WoW has been spectacularly bad about not realizing that there shouldn't be anytime where another player can shut down your experience in the game so hard that you literally have to leave for a few hours just for a chance to return to playing.

    Especially in regards to a game that you pay monthly for.

    Agreed. I've had this happen to me in WoW when you have max characters constantly ganking you until you log off (or in my case I just switched servers) Not everyone has a guild or friends to call on. If you're going to PvP do it with someone more on par with your level.
    "Bravery only means something to those who are afraid of death."
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited November 2020
    Maezriel wrote: »
    @Wandering Mist I think it's this part "Spawn camping? Not griefing."

    Most would likely agree that being camped in one spot until you're only option is to log off would be griefing. WoW has been spectacularly bad about not realizing that there shouldn't be anytime where another player can shut down your experience in the game so hard that you literally have to leave for a few hours just for a chance to return to playing.

    Especially in regards to a game that you pay monthly for.

    See, I don't see it that way. To me, spawn camping is an opportunity. If you find yourself being targeted by someone, you call for help from your friends/guild/random passers-by. So your allies appear to help you and drive away your attackers. Those players then call for backup from their own friends/guilds and suddenly you have a full on PvP battle. Some of the greatest open-world PvP moments start this way.

    That's why I don't consider spawn-camping to be griefing.

    My problem is that you are saying "All acts of provocation are acceptable unless it's against an in-game ally".

    Why are you not allowed to grief an ally? In-fighting is part of the fall of an empire. Which includes backstabbing, pretending to be friends, and deception.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    See, I don't see it that way. To me, spawn camping is an opportunity.

    To me, any action against another player that can cause that player to need to spend time has the potential to be taken to the level of griefing.

    This includes spawn camping.

    Obviously, spawn camping isn't always griefing. However, if you know someone is in a guild that isn't online at the time, or indeed isn't even in a guild, and you start spawn camping them for an extended period of time - that can't really be looked at as anything other than griefing.

    If it is someone in a guild you are familiar with, and that you know will come out to support that player, then a little bit of spawn camping isn't griefing at all.

    Griefing isn't a specific act, it is an intent. If you are spawn camping someone with the intent to just piss them off knowing they can't do anything about it, there is no defense of that kind of action.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Fast travel spawn location camping was quite common in pvp in L2.
    So were leaving scouts at fast travel spawn locations.

    For the unfortunate sole that landed unknowingly into a trap often led them to either try again later, go fast travel else where or as Wanderingmist suggested bring their own support.

    It was quite intense to camp a spot to have an unknown number of enemy return the jump..In reverse it required timing and coordination to ensure all pvp`ing clan members sync`d their teleports at the same time so as to be effective rather than slaughtered.

    All in a days fun.. But perhaps other games did not give some the same experience!

    But alas with limited fast travel within game, the only spawning I can see happing more commonly will probably be respawning back into a safe zone after a death. So part of this conversion is probably a lot of fluff over nothing
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    I use gank and grief interchangeably because they only way I ever feel griefed in MMORPGs is by being forced into PvP combat when I'm not in the mood for PvP combat. As in jumped while I'm out harvesting and not being left alone when I say I'm just harvesting and not in the mood for PvP combat.
    Especially when corpse camping is possible.
    When I play on PvE-only servers, it is not possible for me to be griefed.

    So, the only way I can imagine griefing to be a thing in Ashes is if the Corruption mechanic does not work to my satisfaction to deter ganking.
    Spawns cannot be owned, in my view, so... if spawns I wanted are being camped too hard, I'm happy to go hunt elsewhere or go explore elsewhere.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited November 2020
    Dygz wrote: »
    I use gank and grief interchangeably because they only way I ever feel griefed in MMORPGs is by being forced into PvP combat when I'm not in the mood for PvP combat. As in jumped while I'm out harvesting and not being left alone when I say I'm just harvesting and not in the mood for PvP combat.
    Especially when corpse camping is possible.
    When I play on PvE-only servers, it is not possible for me to be griefed.

    So, the only way I can imagine griefing to be a thing in Ashes is if the Corruption mechanic does not work to my satisfaction to deter ganking.

    A non open world mmorpg would be more to your satisfaction.
    Plenty around. I cant imagine how they have failed to satisfy you.
    So many games that you can harvest thousands of gatherables that you can sell for 1 gold cheaper than the cheapest previous post at the auction houses.
    All while you win over the npcs.
    And when it is to your satisfaction you can play a BG match, or Q for a raid.

    I hope that being ganged by a random PKer once a blue moon wont be a reason to feel dissatisfied with the system.

    And I do hope that you wont claim that you are being harassed when other players push you out of a corridor on some ruins, while you farm something.

    But then again, even if you do, youll be told this is the game you chose to play and it wont change.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    PvP in EQ and WoW was always bad.
    My Activision buddies would entice me to join PvP-Optional servers so we could play together, but I was the Localizations manager, so I spent a lot of time working while they were playing and playing when they were sleeping. Meaning, I spent a lot of time playing solo.

    I am mostly a carebear anyways. Even in tabletop D&D, I typically use Charisma skills to flirt or intimidate to avoid combat as much as possible. I enjoy PvP combat sometimes. If I stumble across a town under attack, I sometimes like to help defend it. But, an hour per plays session is about the most PvP combat I can stomach. After that, I want to be left alone to explore or harvest or craft or quest on my own.
    Eventually, I get ganked often enough for me to rage quit and jump to a PvE-Only server.
    I'm dubious that Corruption will be enough of a gank deterrent to suit my needs but...doesn't really hurt to give it a shot. And I am very curious to see if it's possible to have hardcore PvPers, casual PvPers and PvE-Only players all thriving on the same server.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    This question is weird if you hold it beside the corruption system.

    As I understand it, the corruption system is designed specifically around consent:
    non consensual PvP is punished - but possible.

    So are we talking about behaviour that is unacceptable beyond the corruption system?
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • Dygz wrote: »
    I use gank and grief interchangeably because they only way I ever feel griefed in MMORPGs is by being forced into PvP combat when I'm not in the mood for PvP combat. As in jumped while I'm out harvesting and not being left alone when I say I'm just harvesting and not in the mood for PvP combat.
    Especially when corpse camping is possible.
    When I play on PvE-only servers, it is not possible for me to be griefed.

    So, the only way I can imagine griefing to be a thing in Ashes is if the Corruption mechanic does not work to my satisfaction to deter ganking.
    Spawns cannot be owned, in my view, so... if spawns I wanted are being camped too hard, I'm happy to go hunt elsewhere or go explore elsewhere.

    Hahaha. "Please leave me alone I'm gathering".

    Ah man, excited to play thanks for the post.
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  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited November 2020
    maouw wrote: »
    So are we talking about behaviour that is unacceptable beyond the corruption system?

    Yes. Unless you for some reason find behaviour within the corruption system to be griefing, then I'd like to hear that as well :smile:
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Spawn/Corpse camping.
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  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    And I am very curious to see if it's possible to have hardcore PvPers, casual PvPers and PvE-Only players all thriving on the same server.

    I think the PvE-only players will be far and few between. Maybe you can run across some in bigger guilds that can protect them, who rarely venture out. Like crafters.

  • TyrantorTyrantor Member
    edited November 2020
    maouw wrote: »

    My problem is that you are saying "All acts of provocation are acceptable unless it's against an in-game ally".

    Why are you not allowed to grief an ally? In-fighting is part of the fall of an empire. Which includes backstabbing, pretending to be friends, and deception.

    I agree with the concept of not liking that the game restricts us being able to attack our ally not for any empire aspect but just the general gist of it. Functionally it seems important that you can't attack your ally from large scale combat situation, with that said I would much prefer this have a toggle similar to the combat healing as well. Stupidity should not have a safe guard and it would play a role in group pvp if people forgot to toggle it in addition sometimes killing someone on your team is a nice reprisal.

    If the game had a toggle for this we wouldn't need to resort to intentionally training mobs on our party lol.

    I also agree that spawn camping has resulted in great pvp from past games, I would have a hard time arguing that it's not considered griefing from a pvp perspective. I would also argue spawn camping someone isn't much fun even from the killing side if they provide such a little challenge that it can be done easily, and if they're getting further death penalties for it that has a negative impact on their ability to fight back it reduces the chances of it remaining competitive for long in the event it started that way. Lastly if the end result is them logging out that further reduces the enjoyment for the killing side as now they have one less target readily available in game to kill again outside of the respawn point.

    I will add that the spawn camping I've been a part of was different than just camping some random respawn point in the open world. We would camp cities in Shadowbane which was both the respawn point and recall point of all bound guild members, so it was in my opinion more justified than not.
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Stupidity should not have a safe guard
    This comment is gold, worthy of being in a signature.
     
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    A non open world mmorpg would be more to your satisfaction.
    Plenty around. I cant imagine how they have failed to satisfy you.
    So many games that you can harvest thousands of gatherables that you can sell for 1 gold cheaper than the cheapest previous post at the auction houses.
    All while you win over the npcs.
    And when it is to your satisfaction you can play a BG match, or Q for a raid.
    1: Easy enough to play on PvE-Only servers.
    2: NWO was fine in terms of PvP, but, I need something that is a WoW 2.0 rather than a WoW 1.x. Or an EQNext.
    Ashes is basically the successor to the EQNext game design, so I'm waiting to see whether it's possible to have hardcore PvPers, casual PvPers and PvE-only folk happily playing on the same server.
    We'll have to see how well the Corruption mechanic works to everyone's satisfaction.


  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    I will add that the spawn camping I've been a part of was different than just camping some random respawn point in the open world. We would camp cities in Shadowbane which was both the respawn point and recall point of all bound guild members, so it was in my opinion more justified than not.
    LMFAO
    Shadowbane was such a monumental failure the designers moved on to create Wizard101.


  • BricktopBricktop Member
    edited November 2020
    Dygz wrote: »
    A non open world mmorpg would be more to your satisfaction.
    Plenty around. I cant imagine how they have failed to satisfy you.
    So many games that you can harvest thousands of gatherables that you can sell for 1 gold cheaper than the cheapest previous post at the auction houses.
    All while you win over the npcs.
    And when it is to your satisfaction you can play a BG match, or Q for a raid.
    1: Easy enough to play on PvE-Only servers.
    2: NWO was fine in terms of PvP, but, I need something that is a WoW 2.0 rather than a WoW 1.x. Or and EQNext. Ashes is basically the successor to the EQNext game design, so I'm waiting to see whether it's possible to have hardcore PvPers, casual PvPers and PvE-only folk happily playing on the same server.
    We'll have to see how well the Corruption mechanic works to everyone's satisfaction.


    Corruption worked fine in Lineage and it'll work fine in Ashes. People also coexisted on the same server in Lineage. Though there weren't many "PvE only" focused players. Very difficult to do so, just like it'll be very difficult to do so in Ashes. There will just be people who are playing the game since you kinda need to do it all.
    brickSIG.png
  • Dygz wrote: »
    LMFAO
    Shadowbane was just a monumental failure the designers moved on to create Wizard101.


    Is this relevant?
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    LMFAO
    Shadowbane was just a monumental failure the designers moved on to create Wizard101.


    Is this relevant?
    Bad/unsuccessful games could have good ideas in them. There’s a huge difference between saying “Shadowbane did this” and “let’s turn Ashes into Shadowbane”.
     
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Corruption worked fine in Lineage and it'll work fine in Ashes. People also coexisted on the same server in Lineage. Though there weren't many "PvE only" focused players. Very difficult to do so, just like it'll be very difficult to do so in Ashes. There will just be people who are playing the game since you kinda need to do it all.
    Karma...
    And significantly different game...so...we shall have to see.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Atama wrote: »
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    LMFAO
    Shadowbane was just a monumental failure the designers moved on to create Wizard101.


    Is this relevant?
    Bad/unsuccessful games could have good ideas in them. There’s a huge difference between saying “Shadowbane did this” and “let’s turn Ashes into Shadowbane”.
    Specifically, Shadowbane failed because the PvP combat was too hardcore - so...not a good example at all.
    That is the relevance.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    You underestimate the number of PvE-Only EQ fans who are interested in Ashes of Creation due to all the EQ designers on the Ashes dev team.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    You underestimate the number of PvE-Only EQ fans who are interested in the game due to all the EQ designers on the Ashes dev team.

    It's totally fine for them to be interested in the game and I hope they love it. How are they planning on getting any gear if they aren't ready to EVER PvP over grind spots or caravans though?
    brickSIG.png
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    LMFAO
    Shadowbane was just a monumental failure the designers moved on to create Wizard101.


    Is this relevant?
    Bad/unsuccessful games could have good ideas in them. There’s a huge difference between saying “Shadowbane did this” and “let’s turn Ashes into Shadowbane”.
    Specifically, Shadowbane failed because the PvP combat was too hardcore - so...not a good example at all.
    That is the relevance.

    I'm not exactly sure where I suggested anything related to Shadowbane be used in AoC or turning it into AoC. I simply stated my experience with "spawn camping" was from the perspective of Shadowbane. So then saying it's not a good example because the pvp is "hardcare" has absolutely zero relevance does it not?
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • Bricktop wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    You underestimate the number of PvE-Only EQ fans who are interested in the game due to all the EQ designers on the Ashes dev team.

    It's totally fine for them to be interested in the game and I hope they love it. How are they planning on getting any gear if they aren't ready to EVER PvP over grind spots or caravans though?

    They can buy it?
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Dygz wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    LMFAO
    Shadowbane was just a monumental failure the designers moved on to create Wizard101.


    Is this relevant?
    Bad/unsuccessful games could have good ideas in them. There’s a huge difference between saying “Shadowbane did this” and “let’s turn Ashes into Shadowbane”.
    Specifically, Shadowbane failed because the PvP combat was too hardcore - so...not a good example at all.
    That is the relevance.
    That’s fair. That context was missing in your original reply but that makes sense.

    There are definitely comparisons you can make between the games; Shadowbane was largely open world PvP, it allowed players to own cities and property, and it had a dynamic world shaped by the players. Those are all features that Ashes will also have. But it also had no quests, practically no PvE, and it is not listed as an inspiration for Ashes. (Lineage 2 and Archeage are the primary inspirations to my knowledge.)

    I’m not sure about “PvP being too hardcore” having anything to do with its failure. I’ve read quite a bit about the game, it was definitely unique when it came out and got a lot of attention so while I never played it I always found it interesting. Everything I’ve read indicated that the main problem with the game stemmed from technical failures. It was full of bugs and the servers were unstable, and that led to a terrible launch they never recovered from. They had a small but dedicated community, yet they had too small of a population to generate enough revenue to be financially viable for a long time. They switched to F2P in a desperate attempt to keep going but it didn’t work. They sold the IP to a Chinese company (Changyou) that declared it would reboot the game with a new engine and everything, but that never happened.
     
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  • BricktopBricktop Member
    edited November 2020
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    You underestimate the number of PvE-Only EQ fans who are interested in the game due to all the EQ designers on the Ashes dev team.

    It's totally fine for them to be interested in the game and I hope they love it. How are they planning on getting any gear if they aren't ready to EVER PvP over grind spots or caravans though?

    They can buy it?

    I mean possibly they could. Doesn't sound like they make solid money if they aren't defending anything they gather or moving resources or certificates through caravans due to the possibility of PvP. Sounds like a very slow process to me.
    brickSIG.png
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