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Dev Discussion #39 - Griefing

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  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dygz wrote: »
    And here is where players like you are wrong.
    It's the players problem, not the games problem.
    LMFAO

    I didn't say anything like "it's the game's problem".
    I also didn't even think anything like "it's the game's problem".
    Stop making shit up in your feeble mind.

    Take a chill pill
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    @maouw Just reading some of these opinions on what people consider griefing. Some of it falls under then intended Risk Vs Reward structure, but people still think it is griefing.

    Your example of camping new players for example. Unless I am wrong, Killing new players and spawn camping would offer little to no reward for the risk of damaging your reputation or possibly going red.

    I think I personally could live in the game with the corruption system as is and not call anything griefing. I have been PKed my share of times in L2 back in the day. I don't even think we had the word griefing back then.
    The Corruption mechanic is in place to minimize ganking. For me that is synonymous with minimizing griefing.
    For people who can be griefed in other ways besides ganking, Corruption won't affect griefing.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    akabear wrote: »
    I have a less is more leaning; the fewer rules the more the onus is on the player base collective to determine what are the acceptable norms and create the justice system. A scaled response, be that through friends, clans, alliances and hopefully somehow even nodes!
    Gamers cannot be trusted to be arbiters of justice.
    That's the nicest way I can phrase that.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    Gamers cannot be trusted to be arbiters of justice.
    That's the nicest way I can phrase that.

    Big true, I wish we had a statement from intrepid of what they see as acceptable "bad" behavior.
    Like how EVE allows scamming. I feel like just the fact that they allow players to scam each other in game sets the bar in a position where people are less likely to have a problem with most behaviors.

    Right now with AOC some people have a false expectation that world PvP is not going to be something they have to deal with constantly. Having a list of behaviors that are acceptable that some would consider to be harsh might help to bring us to a more common definition of what is griefing for AOC.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ah, the needle of the political compass shakes back and forth; almost like the divide in viewpoint is a representation of those who would approach the game from as libertarian or as authoritarian!




  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    akabear wrote: »
    Ah, the needle of the political compass shakes back and forth; almost like the divide in viewpoint is a representation of those who would approach the game from as libertarian or as authoritarian!
    The needle is quivering in fear.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • I've been reading all these answers closely, cos I'm interested to see how the community feels about this.

    I'd suggest that the "griefing" act is dependent on the griefed party rather than the griefer. If the action causes upset or annoyance, then it could be considered griefing.

    From the sounds of it, if someone kills Vhaeyne six or seven times while they're out gathering, they're not going to be too bothered about it. If someone kills Dygz six or seven times while they're out gathering, they're going to be a little annoyed.

    As Varkun said, different people have different opinions of it, and will have different tolerances of it. I don't see there'll be any agreement coming out of this thread!
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    maouw Just reading some of these opinions on what people consider griefing. Some of it falls under then intended Risk Vs Reward structure, but people still think it is griefing.

    Your example of camping new players for example. Unless I am wrong, Killing new players and spawn camping would offer little to no reward for the risk of damaging your reputation or possibly going red.

    I think I personally could live in the game with the corruption system as is and not call anything griefing. I have been PKed my share of times in L2 back in the day. I don't even think we had the word griefing back then.
    Griefing as the term is used in an MMO context was around in the late 90's. It may not have made it to L2, but it was around in western MMO's (EQ, for example).

    I can't think of any specific act of killing a player in Ashes that could be considered griefing - as players always have an action they can take (simply not flagging as a combatant). That said, I have never played a game where killing another player would be considered in the top 10 ways to grief another player.

    Honestly, all this talk about killing players just seems out of context in a discussion on griefing.
  • ValicValic Member
    edited November 2020
    Griefing to me is anything that involves you not being rewarded and stopping someone else's progression on purpose. Foul language and etc comes hand in hand with this of course but killing for "luls" or spawning bosses or leashing them in areas that normally shouldn't be allowed are things that would tie into this.
    Dygz wrote: »
    I use gank and grief interchangeably because they only way I ever feel griefed in MMORPGs is by being forced into PvP combat when I'm not in the mood for PvP combat. As in jumped while I'm out harvesting and not being left alone when I say I'm just harvesting and not in the mood for PvP combat.
    Especially when corpse camping is possible.
    When I play on PvE-only servers, it is not possible for me to be griefed.

    So, the only way I can imagine griefing to be a thing in Ashes is if the Corruption mechanic does not work to my satisfaction to deter ganking.
    Spawns cannot be owned, in my view, so... if spawns I wanted are being camped too hard, I'm happy to go hunt elsewhere or go explore elsewhere.

    Not trying to say I don't understand your point here... I do, but it's not griefing if the zone is designated for pvp and those illustrious crafting materials your soul is set after are gated in it. You don't have to engage in the pvp of course... but that just means you can be killed as easily. You could consider getting someone to go with you to guard or bring your guild etc.

    This single player mindset is why people are craving a game like AoC. Everyone just wants to "be left alone" and do things as if they're an all powerful god that doesn't need help and can get away by doing whatever in an ever-growing world. That's not to be the case this time. If I find you in the field of pvp and you're gathering, maybe I want to gather those items? Maybe I just need a kill for an achievement or daily. Frankly, maybe I just don't like the guild you're in and really wanna spite them... whatever the case ends up being, it's a free for all. Come prepared or be strategic in how you gather, because it's all fair game where designated.
    Future mercenary guild owner in Ashes of Creation
    “The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”
    ― G.K. Chesterton
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Right now with AOC some people have a false expectation that world PvP is not going to be something they have to deal with constantly. Having a list of behaviors that are acceptable that some would consider to be harsh might help to bring us to a more common definition of what is griefing for AOC.
    It's not a false expectation about "world PvP".
    Steven says Ashes is a PvX game rather than a PvP game.
    Steven says that Corruption should be enough of a deterrent for forced PvP combat in the open-world that there is no need for PvE-Only servers.
    If that isn't true, PvE-Only and casual PvP characters won't play the game.
    Then we will see if Ashes is a Shadowbane or a New World.
    It's really as simple as that.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Noaani wrote: »
    I can't think of any specific act of killing a player in Ashes that could be considered griefing - as players always have an action they can take (simply not flagging as a combatant). That said, I have never played a game where killing another player would be considered in the top 10 ways to grief another player.

    Honestly, all this talk about killing players just seems out of context in a discussion on griefing.
    It's a non-action that people can take.
    Corruption is a mechanic that hardcore PvPers, like Steven, think is a great deterrent because there is a penalty for forcing other players to be a participant in PvP combat against their will.
    Not understanding that casual PvPers and PvE-only players don't really care about what happens to the perpetrators after they've been forced into that activity against their will.

    We will just have to see if it actually acts as enough of a deterrent that casual PvPers and PvE-Only players don't feel griefed. If they feel griefed enough that they don't play, we will then have to see if there is enough of a playerbase remaining to support the servers for more than 5 years.
    And if there is - great!!
  • @Tyrantor

    I'd also prefer the Friendly-Fire-Safeguard for Guilds to be removed.
    This would be an effective counter measure against zerging with more than 1 raids.

    I don't see much point to have this system. I'd even go the opposite direction. Some sort of penalty towards the guild for guildmembers killing each other.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Steven says Ashes is a PvX game rather than a PvP game.

    He says it's a PvX game rather than a PvE game, too. Just saying...

    Assuming that you can get away without either one of the sides of the PvX system seems a little naïve.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Bricktop wrote: »
    No but you need to be ready to PvP in order to play the game.
    According to Steven, Corruption is intended to be enough of a deterrent that being forced into PvP combat when you're not in the mood is rare enough that casual PvPers will play. He's also hoping that PvE-Only people will be interested in playing Ashes in order to support the PvPers.
    The focus of Ashes is on objective-based PvP combat - so, to be precise, the PvP-Only folk really have a problem with direct PvP combat and tolerate indirect, objective-based PvP combat...like sieges.


    I think it's wishful thinking to believe NPCs are gonna save your caravans but we will see. And I highly doubt a PvE player will be getting the will to be doing a whole lot of gathering if they routinely lose it all to someone who PvPs. When I say grind spots I mean your room in a dungeon, your area that has a really high earning potential through AoE pulls, etc. You will probably have to defend your harvesting areas often too though.
    NPC defenders are part of the design. How good NPCs are at defense will depend on the how sturdy/fast the caravan has been built, how powerful the NPCs are and how many players are able to find the caravan.

    If casual PvPers are routinely losing all their resources due to open-world PvP, the Corruption mechanic will be a failure - and likely Ashes will not last longer than 5 years.


    What exactly is the benefit of defending a caravan for random people? Genuine question here. I can't think of a single scenario where it wouldn't be more lucrative to kill everybody and take whatevers in the caravan unless you are like a RPer or something who's interested in defending the common man.
    Um. Caravans are part of the meaningful conflict and meaningful PvP the dev team touts.
    You defend caravans because those caravans have resources that will benefit the progression of your Node.
    You attack caravans to help prevent progression of rival Nodes.
    You could also attack caravans because you love PvP combat and want to steal resources, too. Sure.


    I suppose someone could possibly etch out a PvE only existence if they are ready to lose 80+% of what they earn because they won't defend it and they are prepared to progress much slower than the rest of the server. Oh they are also probably gonna need to find a guild who doesn't mind carrying someone who sucks at or flat out refuses to PvP in a PvP-centric game as well for all the group content.
    It's not really about eking out a PvE-Only existence. It's about minimizing forced, direct PvP combat enough that PvE-Only players (players who typically play on PvE-Ony servers when they play MMORPGs) are willing to tolerate the PvP combat going on around them in Ashes.
    The populations of PvE-Only servers on EQ and WoW are large enough that the Ashes devs want those players playing Ashes. And the devs think that the Ashes design will entice those players in addition to enticing the hardcore PvP crowd.
    Which is why the devs promote Ashes as a PvX game rather than as a hardcore PvP game.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    It's not a false expectation about "world PvP".
    Steven says Ashes is a PvX game rather than a PvP game.
    Steven says that Corruption should be enough of a deterrent for forced PvP combat in the open-world that there is no need for PvE-Only servers.
    If that isn't true, PvE-Only and casual PvP characters won't play the game.
    Then we will see if Ashes is a Shadowbane or a New World.
    It's really as simple as that.
    You quoted @akabear for something I said.

    PvX rather than PvP? I am very skeptical.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Hunting_grounds
    "Hunting grounds are open-world PvP corruption-enabled areas that encompass most of the map"
    I would say at a minimum it is a PvP leaning game. You can't just call it PvX because it has Mobs in it. The game barely has safe zones.

    PvE-only and casual PvP players should see that and not want to play the game. If you play EVE expecting it to be masseffect... you are gonna have a bad time.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member
    edited November 2020
    Dygz wrote: »
    He's also hoping that PvE-Only people will be interested in playing Ashes in order to support the PvPers.

    Really? I've only ever heard him push the PvX aspect of AoC.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    PvE-only and casual PvP players should see that and not want to play the game.

    Just like most things in life, I think there's a balance. I'm expecting that players will be able to lean in favour of their preferred side, but will have to be involved in both. As a Casual PvP player, there's nothing here that I've seen that would deter me.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Bricktop wrote: »
    I think it may be harder than people would think due to the localization of banks, resources, and economies. People are gonna have to go to certain parts of the map to gather certain things to my understanding, so there's a chance for PvP right there. They are just gonna use the their mount and transfer small amounts back and forth the whole time across extremely large distances? They are only going to stick by themselves in extremely subpar gathering and grinding areas to avoid PvP? I even wonder will they be shunned by the server community as a whole because everybody knows they won't defend the group and now they can't pug? Will they able able to find a decent guild to help them if the guild knows they refuse to PvP? Sure these things are possible but my whole argument is that while PvE only MAY be possible it'll be extremely difficult and time consuming compared to what everybody else is doing.

    I think PvE only players would much sooner quit the game before they start jumping through these hoops left and right only to progress very slowly while still losing progress all along the way because they refuse to PvP.
    I think you haven't listened very well to how Steven describes Ashes gameplay.
    Steven wants those players who typically play on PvE only servers to play Ashes of Creation.
    And he does not want the open world PvP combat to be so rampant that the players who typically play on PvE-Only servers feel harassed enough to rage quit.

    In Steven's vision, PvEers will be Master Crafters supporting the combat of the PvPers. Which entices the PvPers to protect the PvEers. So, PvE-Only Crafters out gathering resources are expected to have PvP guards with them. Because getting the best resources for the Node safely to the Node is desirable to Node citizens.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Just like most things in life, I think there's a balance. I'm expecting that players will be able to lean in favour of their preferred side, but will have to be involved in both. As a Casual PvP player, there's nothing here that I've seen that would deter me.
    If players are going to be able to "Lean" in favor of the activity they like best as you put it. I think the PvE players are all gonna be limbo champs.
    I don't consider myself to be a hardcore PvP player, but I also don't consider myself to be a Casual at anything.
    The game looks great to me, I expect to have to fight for my life daily to get anything done.
    If you are saying that you are a Casual PvPer and the fact that there are: no safe zones, and large areas of the map that will flag you for PvP. That is great.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • I love these "It's a PvX game not a PvP game" arguments that pop up every so often they really tickle me.

    Sure of course its PvX. But if you break things down you can easily see the writing on the wall. Raids? Open world, players will need to possibly PvP to gain control of them. Dungeons? Open world, players will need to possibly PvP to maintain their room. Opening new dungeons and raids? Also through PvP in the form of node sieges. Materials are lootable off corpses after PvP (Encourages ganking gatherers). Crafting will require you to move caravans around (Also PvP). Grind spots to farm gold/mats? You guessed it, you are gonna have to defend those from other players. So in order to PvE you need to PvP, and in order to craft you need to PvP.

    Ashes of Creation isn't a Hardcore-PvP game.

    But is it a PvP-centric PvX game? Yes absolutely. You will most likely be PvPing every single day you log in. A lot of PvPers in my experience have no issues crafting, killing bosses and grinding out mobs to progress. A lot of PvE only players in my experience have a massive issue with PvPing of any kind, even comparing being killed by a player in a video game to being a victim of IRL crime like we have seen on these very forums.
    brickSIG.png
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    If you are saying that you are a Casual PvPer and the fact that there are: no safe zones, and large areas of the map that will flag you for PvP. That is great.

    I'm expecting to be running for my life each time I log in. But it's not enough to put me off the game! Hahaha

    And the Group-PvP looks like great fun.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    He says it's a PvX game rather than a PvE game, too. Just saying...
    Assuming that you can get away without either one of the sides of the PvX system seems a little naïve.
    Yep. But, again... at that point we have to split PvP into direct PvP combat and indirect PvP support.


  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    This will be me when the game starts:
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=iLwn37ev1Wo
  • BricktopBricktop Member
    edited November 2020
    Dygz wrote: »
    Bricktop wrote: »
    I think it may be harder than people would think due to the localization of banks, resources, and economies. People are gonna have to go to certain parts of the map to gather certain things to my understanding, so there's a chance for PvP right there. They are just gonna use the their mount and transfer small amounts back and forth the whole time across extremely large distances? They are only going to stick by themselves in extremely subpar gathering and grinding areas to avoid PvP? I even wonder will they be shunned by the server community as a whole because everybody knows they won't defend the group and now they can't pug? Will they able able to find a decent guild to help them if the guild knows they refuse to PvP? Sure these things are possible but my whole argument is that while PvE only MAY be possible it'll be extremely difficult and time consuming compared to what everybody else is doing.

    I think PvE only players would much sooner quit the game before they start jumping through these hoops left and right only to progress very slowly while still losing progress all along the way because they refuse to PvP.
    I think you haven't listened very well to how Steven describes Ashes gameplay.
    Steven wants those players who typically play on PvE only servers to play Ashes of Creation.
    And he does not want the open world PvP combat to be so rampant that the players who typically play on PvE-Only servers feel harassed enough to rage quit.

    In Steven's vision, PvEers will be Master Crafters supporting the combat of the PvPers. Which entices the PvPers to protect the PvEers. So, PvE-Only Crafters out gathering resources are expected to have PvP guards with them. Because getting the best resources for the Node safely to the Node is desirable to Node citizens.

    I think you are being a little silly if you believe actual PvP guilds are gonna carry PvE only players to be their crafters and gatherers instead of just easily doing it themselves. PvP guilds craft, gather and kill bosses in a game like this as well. I can tell you my guild isn't recruiting any crafters, gatherers, and PvE only players. We are recruiting players who will do what they need to do in order to progress their chars. Whether that's PKing 50 people who won't flag up at a world boss with the guild, or grinding mobs for 5 hours to get materials, or reading up on boss fights, or whatever it takes to succeed.

    I don't believe open world combat will be "rampant", but I also don't believe legitimate actual PvE only players will enjoy a game that is going to have you PvPing in it probably every day.
    brickSIG.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Bricktop wrote: »
    Sure of course its PvX. But if you break things down you can easily see the writing on the wall. Raids? Open world, players will need to possibly PvP to gain control of them. Dungeons? Open world, players will need to possibly PvP to maintain their room. Opening new dungeons and raids? Also through PvP in the form of node sieges. Materials are lootable off corpses after PvP (Encourages ganking gatherers). Crafting will require you to move caravans around (Also PvP). Grind spots to farm gold/mats? You guessed it, you are gonna have to defend those from other players. So in order to PvE you need to PvP, and in order to craft you need to PvP.
    Steven typically speaks of PvE-Only players as Crafters. In his vision, those Crafters don't seem to be Raiders.
    And, their role if they did join a raid would primarily be Crafter support, rather than Adventurer support.


    Bricktop wrote: »
    But is it a PvP-centric PvX game? Yes absolutely. You will most likely be PvPing every single day you log in. A lot of PvPers in my experience have no issues crafting, killing bosses and grinding out mobs to progress. A lot of PvE only players in my experience have a massive issue with PvPing of any kind, even comparing being killed by a player in a video game to being a victim of IRL crime like we have seen on these very forums.
    Steven will tell you it is a PvX game; not a PvP-centric game.
    People will be "PvPing every single day" but the focus of the game is on objective-based PvP, so while everyone will be indirectly supporting PvP competition everyday, many people will not be engaging in PvP combat every day.
    Crafting doesn't require actively moving caravans around. Crafting requires having access to resources. All kinds of ways to do that without escorting caravans.

    I frequently farm in MMORPGs in places where no one else is anywhere near me.
    It will be possible to PvE for days without encountering PvP combat at all.
    Especially in the beginning months.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member
    edited November 2020
    Dygz wrote: »
    Steven typically speaks of PvE-Only players as Crafters. In his vision, those Crafters don't seem to be Raiders.
    And, their role if they did join a raid would primarily be Crafter support, rather than Adventurer support.

    What do you see the role of "Crafting Support" as within a raid? Everyone's got their gear ready to go do the raid, so it's not like they need a pure Crafter to go with them into the dungeon. "There's the boss, go back to your freehold to craft us some swords, and we'll just wait here for you to bring them back to us!"

    I think we're getting too buried in the traditional "Pv..." mentality. I don't see that we'll be having "PvPers" or "PvEers". We're going to have "Players" that do both in varying degrees.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Valic wrote: »
    Not trying to say I don't understand your point here... I do, but it's not griefing if the zone is designated for pvp and those illustrious crafting materials your soul is set after are gated in it. You don't have to engage in the pvp of course... but that just means you can be killed as easily. You could consider getting someone to go with you to guard or bring your guild etc.
    If I'm attacked by another player, that's being forced into non-consensual PvP...which is griefing.
    I am a casual PvPer.
    In EQ and WoW, zones dedicated for PvP would not have anything that would entice me to visit unless I'm interested in PvP combat.

    Having spent years on the EQNext Forums discussing how to design gameplay so that hardcore PvPers, casual PvPers and PvE-Only players would happily play on the same server, I can tell you that it's only the hardcore PvPers who think it's OK to bait people into PvP designated zones with illustrious crafting materials.

    In Ashes, you are correct: We don't have to engage when attacked by another player. The attacker then can choose whether our resources are worth the Corruption penalties. And we will assess whether Corruption is enough of a deterrent to make playing Ashes tolerable.
    Steven envisions Crafters bringing PvPer guards.


    Valic wrote: »
    This single player mindset is why people are craving a game like AoC. Everyone just wants to "be left alone" and do things as if they're an all powerful god that doesn't need help and can get away by doing whatever in an ever-growing world. That's not to be the case this time. If I find you in the field of pvp and you're gathering, maybe I want to gather those items? Maybe I just need a kill for an achievement or daily. Frankly, maybe I just don't like the guild you're in and really wanna spite them... whatever the case ends up being, it's a free for all. Come prepared or be strategic in how you gather, because it's all fair game where designated.
    This has absolutely nothing to do with a single-player mindset. Also, "left alone" is not a literal phrase, it is a metaphorical request to not be molested (as in the verb molestar).
    The PvE-Only playstyle is cooperative, carebear and pacifist.
    My playstyle comes from PvP not being a thing in table-top games like D&D. I play MMORPGs to explore a virtual world and socialize and cooperate with fellow players against challenges from NPCs and monsters. I am non-competitive. And, even in D&D, I use Charisma skills to avoid combat as much as possible.

    I'm not aware of Ashes having open-world-PvP kill achievements or dailies. I highly doubt it will, but maybe.
    But, if that's want you want, the PvP combat should be consensual. You should not get to force me to participate in something you want to do just because it benefits you. Which is why, in Ashes, doing so without my consent will penalize you. And, you will have to decide if my resources or your kill count (if Ashes has such a thing) is worth the Corruption. And if Corruption is so mambly pambly that it is more common for people to choose Corruption rather than not kill me...I simply won't play this game.
    And then we'll see if there are enough people who enjoy the game to keep the servers active for more than five years.
    Again, if there are...great.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    You quoted @akabear for something I said.
    Yep. I caught that shortly after I posted.


    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    PvX rather than PvP? I am very skeptical.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Hunting_grounds
    "Hunting grounds are open-world PvP corruption-enabled areas that encompass most of the map"
    I would say at a minimum it is a PvP leaning game. You can't just call it PvX because it has Mobs in it. The game barely has safe zones.

    PvE-only and casual PvP players should see that and not want to play the game. If you play EVE expecting it to be masseffect... you are gonna have a bad time.
    The hunting in Hunting Grounds does not refer to players hunting other players, rather it refers to players hunting mobs and resources.
    As opposed to Battlegrounds - Caravans and Sieges - PvP combat with no Corruption mechanic.
    In Steven's vision, Corruption will be enough of a deterrent for non-consensual PvP combat that safe zones won't be required.

    Steven and the devs call the game PvX.
    And specifically state it is a PvX game and not a PvP game.
    (Obviously it's not a PvE game since there won't even be any PvE-Only servers)
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    You are the one with the delusion that there will only be "PvP Guilds" in Ashes.
    Steven does not say that everyone in Ashes will probably be PvPing everyday.
    You can believe the Earth is the center of the solar system if you want to.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Steven and the devs call the game PvX.
    And specifically state it is a PvX game and not a PvP game.
    (Obviously it's not a PvE game since there won't even be any PvE-Only servers)

    Sorry, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from a little better:

    Whenever anyone mentions PvP, you tell them that Steven says it's a PvX game.
    And you then go on to say that you want to PvE without being attacked, seemingly having forgotten that you've just said it's a PvX game?
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