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PvP aspect and the likely effect to casual players

Ladies and Gentlemen,

referring to the thread “Dev Discussion #39 – Griefing”, there is a question arising in my mind that is difficult for me to be answered and I would like to see the different opinions around the fanbase.
As the thread mentioned above is more intended to griefing commonly, I’d like to focus on the PvP aspect and the most likely leading effect to casual players.

I wonder if Ashes of Creation is intended to attract the so called casual PvE players in the same way as the PvP’ers. If the answer is: “Yes!”, then I fear that the actual planned open world PvP ruleset will not contribute to keep those players playing AoC in long term. Once the casual gamer is killed the fifth time while he tries to gather a material, it is most likely, that he will turn his back to the game and leave. The actual planned corruption system will neither prevent that griefer, ganker and/or corpse camper to continuously ruin the casual gamers gaming experience, nor would it the bounty hunter system. Please remember: I only mention Open World, not caravans, sieges, etc. which are intended to be heavily PvP.
I also believe that the main problem is not the kill itself, but the loss of some (up to 40% if I memorize correctly ?) of the gathered/carried material. I can imagine that somebody who spent just two hours with gathering materials, is not very happy to loose quiet a batch of his ore. … or more, if his corpse is camped for a while …

This having said, maybe it would be an idea, to really re-think about different server types. I know Stephen rejected this idea earlier, but a separated PvX-Server with OPTIONAL PvP (on/off function) in Open World, only (this is important) would do the job and attract the casual player by far more, I assume.
Server types could be like:

PvP-FL (Full Loot) That’s really something for those who grew up with Ultima Online 😉 Additionally, this server could have an increased drop-rate of materials and loot, etc.

PvX-PL (Partial Loot) As intended right now

PVX-OF (Optional Flagged) This server might face a reduced material drop from all resources …

Of course more details could be elaborated on demand ...

The resulting question to be answered - if it keeps as it is - would be: Is the highly PvP oriented fanbase big enough to keep the game running profitable in long term ? Or would it be better for Intrepid Studios to have speculative 100K – 300K monthly paying accounts more on their finance base …? One little flag could probably do the job …

Again, please don’t get me wrong: I actually think about getting an Alpha-, and Betakey to get a deeper picture of the game, but when I join once it’s released, I should prefer it, to play on a animate world and not on desert where I meet other players one in an hour of playtime …
I really love Stephen’s and his team idealism and I believe in AoC, but Intrepid Studios is unfortunately not a charitable trust … They need to look for some profit … and profit needs paying customers …

This thread is NOT related to my personal preferred playstyle, it focusses to the view to the impact of the casual player and discuss the question, if they can be ignored from financial and server population point of view ...

Thanks for reading my humble opinions
Looking forward reading yours

Kind regards and have a nice weekend *waves*

P.S. If the Mods prefer it this thread to be moved to the Dev-discussion please feel free to do so :)

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Comments

  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 14
    Silberwolf wrote: »
    I wonder if Ashes of Creation is intended to attract the so called casual PvE players in the same way as the PvP’ers.

    It isn't :smile: Not if you mean hardline casual PvE-only players at least. This game is very unlikely to be for them, and I have not seen Intrepid say anything to the contrary.

    My hope is it will attract people who think they are PvE-only players perhaps, and then they find out PvP is really awesome and not all that scary. The absolute best and memorable MMORPG gameplay comes from PvP related things. Not necessarily 100% PvP, but events where PvP is a part of the equation somehow. It speaks to the tribal nature in us. Us vs. Them.

  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Just because there is open pvp doesn't mean casual pve players can't enjoy the game. The corruption system will curve the behavior towards certain areas. Combine this with the size of the world, there will be plenty of room for less combative players to find a place in the world.

    If it's a person who flips their table because they get killed every once in a while, then sure, they might not have the best time but the average casual shouldn't have a problem doing their own thing.
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  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member
    edited January 14
    Silberwolf wrote: »
    I wonder if Ashes of Creation is intended to attract the so called casual PvE players in the same way as the PvP’ers.

    Indeed it isn't. They've made it clear from the outset that Ashes isn't going to be everyone's thing. It's PvX. You'll need to do both PvE and PvP in order to play the game, and that's a core concept that's highly unlikely to change.
  • You are supposed to interact with players (unbelievable I know) if someone is getting the better of you to the point of griefing then have your guildies come save you.

    As for the corruption/bounty hunters not helping. How can anyone possibly know that yet? The game is in Alpha, we haven’t even seen all the races and classes yet. If being a bounty Hunter is rewarding people will do it.
    Example: Blades of the Darkmoon/covenant of the meek in the Dark Souls series.

  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack
    No.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    There are events that are happening in the world in the game that you won't need to be a hardcore player to impact and join. For example, the triggered events from the PvE standpoint against the cities; the trades of the caravans; those natural battlegrounds that exist; the castle sieges you can login for. There is a lot of systems that are at play where a person can simply log in, participate, have fun, be impactful and then log out.
    ---Steven

    Traditionally in MMORPGs you're going to see a larger population of casual players than you do of hardcore players; and that's just the way the cookie crumbles from a population standpoint. And because of that and the way that nodes collect experience and advance as a result of player activity, those casual players will actually have more impact on node progression than the hardcore players will: at least as I predict, because of the sheer quantity disproportionate between the two different groups of people... You may see in Ashes the smaller hardcore group of players progress further into the late-game content, right. But they don't have the numbers to influence the nodes in those locations as quickly as the more casual... larger population has near the outskirts.
    ---Steven
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 14
    Flagging for PvP isn't the answer. The answer is simpler, but I won't ask Intrepid to even consider implementing it, if the far off day comes when I'm in the position to, I'll do that myself.

    The answer is to make it so that some random 'divine protection' kicks in when you don't fight back, that makes it harder and harder to actually damage a player who isn't fighting back (my full system for this is much more expansive but this is the core).

    You can still kill them, but they have a much much better chance of either dealing with the situation, fleeing, 'watching how you attack them' to learn things rather than just dying, or 'being willing to engage or agree to fight you on some potentially more even terms'.

    Flagging for PvP stops the game from being PvX and all the great things that come with PvX. The thing one needs to 'get rid of' is that constant stupid 'I didn't choose to attack first so now I've possibly lost the fight simply by that disadvantage'.

    That's not good for even PvP. I'm not incentivized at all to fight back if I have lost over 30% of my health against an attacker before I realize what's going on. But similarly, the attacker shouldn't have to 'negotiate with me about whether or not I'm willing to flag up so they can kill me' if they don't want to.

    I'm not talking like 'you have zero chance of actually killing me once I get low enough' or even 'yeah I've been at 10% health for the last 60 seconds and you're still whacking away, you do you, friend' (though it might get close against certain classes obviously, without proper additional balance).

    There's too much important in the PvX space to add flagging, and too much important in goal of getting the PvE player space to be wililng to engage with PvP eventually, to just 'let people die completely normally when a serious PvP player jumps them'.

    Skill gaps in games are huge, and they don't close via just time put in, in competitive games, since your opponent's goal is to prevent you from getting to fight back as quickly as possible.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited January 14
    I see a few people saying this game is not designed to invite casual pve players and Im honestly shocked. There are so many tools like corruption, bounty hunters, in-depth crafting/gathering, plenty of out-door and dungeon content, quests, social organizations, monster tokens, house building/customization, etc. From the intent I gather and the direction things are going all of these will be a treasure trove to the casual pver.

    They have so many things to sink their teeth into that does not involve pvp and there are systems that aim to reduce griefing said casual pvers. Is it perfect to the point that they will never encounter pvp? Nope, but thats why its a PvX game, they can however avoid it mostly if they really try.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Sathrago wrote: »
    I see a few people saying this game is not designed to invite casual pve players and Im honestly shocked. There are so many tools like corruption, bounty hunters, in-depth crafting/gathering, plenty of out-door and dungeon content, quests, social organizations, monster tokens, house building/customization, etc. From the intent I gather and the direction things are going all of these will be a treasure trove to the casual pver.

    They have so many things to sink their teeth into that does not involve pvp and there are systems that aim to reduce griefing said casual pvers. Is it perfect to the point that they will never encounter pvp? Nope, but thats why its a PvX game, they can however avoid it mostly if they really try.

    As a PvX-er, I disagree with all of this. The annoying and painful parts of PvP are never mitigated by 'oh I could do so many other things'. So I'm honestly shocked that you think having a lot of things one could do, but having no restrictions on whether or not you can be repeatedly murdered one day while trying to do one of those things when none of your friends are on, is a 'treasure trove'.

    People have limited playtime. Casual players in particular.

    There are such a thing as 'Casual PvX players'. People who don't mind PvP in a game but will still be annoyed by any scenario where their ability to progress EITHER in their PvP skill OR their PvE activity is negated by some player who decides to make their life hard.

    The fact that one doesn't get corruption until the player falls, and apparently only last hitter gains corruption, means that this is an easy situation to get onto the table.

    Quests? Can be killed during for someone else's fun and no other reason. Dungeon content? Good luck getting past the guild who put their PvPers at the front door to control access to a drop inside it. House building?

    "Oh wait I logged on after having to work a shift and not being able to attend the Node war and now my house is in ruins and I have to do it all again elsewhere', but I can't play more now so I guess I'll have to devote some of my playtime tomorrow that I planned to spend on rearranging my new furniture 'finding a new place to live entirely'.

    Limited. Playtime.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • I don't know why people always associate casual PvE players with gathering or crafting. For me, being casual was always either having limited time or not taking the game seriously enough to aim for the difficult challenges.

    And not all PvE players are against all form of PvP. The problem is often that objective centred PvP is cloistered into battlegrounds or arenas and open world PvP is only an opportunistic gankfest where the attackers are greatly favoured by the simple virtues of choosing who and when it's best for them to act.

    But AoC brings objective PvP in the open world. And we should not neglect how having no fixed factions changes the open world dynamic, no one is branded as the enemy. Also, nodes and their zone of influence could be bubbles of relative safety.

    So it's hard to say how friendly the game will be to the more PvE casual, but no one should come to AoC and expect to be shielded from PvP.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • Sathrago wrote: »
    I see a few people saying this game is not designed to invite casual pve players and Im honestly shocked. There are so many tools like corruption, bounty hunters, in-depth crafting/gathering, plenty of out-door and dungeon content, quests, social organizations, monster tokens, house building/customization, etc. From the intent I gather and the direction things are going all of these will be a treasure trove to the casual pver.

    They have so many things to sink their teeth into that does not involve pvp and there are systems that aim to reduce griefing said casual pvers. Is it perfect to the point that they will never encounter pvp? Nope, but thats why its a PvX game, they can however avoid it mostly if they really try.
    I agree, I think casual players have their place in this game and if they can get over their initial fear of being ganked they will even like this game.
    What I disagree with is casual players trying to change the very core systems of AoC to accommodate all of their fears. They should at least try the game as the devs imagined it before they say it should be like WoW or whatever game they think they like. And if after trying it they prefer another game, it’s ok for them to go play that game instead.

    But changing the very core systems of AoC would be a mistake. Most people hardcore and not are hyped for this game because of the vision and systems that Steven/Intrepid have been talking about.
  • CawwCaww Member
    I'm a PvP-lite player and am willing to give AoC a chance at this model since I do enjoy the big epic fights, not the 1vX that manages to find you out in the open. As long as the loss of harvestables is the only penalty for playing green then I can live with that. If gear damage, loss of xp or other penalties occur then as a casual I'm less inclined to pay a monthly fee for the indignity.

    I am hoping to develop better PvP skills since there will probably be plenty of times I will just say damn it and go ahead and defend. I don't plan on initiating attacks outside of the big events since there seems to be plenty of peaceful PvE game play to be had.

    This is just one casuals' thoughts on pre-play speculation.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    You know, because people only go play on the servers they want to engage in. PVPers never go to RP servers to PVP, and PVE players never play on a PVP server and complain about getting ganked while doing PVE content....

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  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 14
    Most hardcore players that I've ever engaged with in my time on games like Lineage 2 and Archeage are PvX (or aiming to be richest/most geared), I really don't see enough evidence that there is in fact a sizeable amount of any playerbase that are only concerned with PvP.

    I feel if systems are spot on then players with less time or who are inexperienced with competitive gaming aspects will warm to the idea of being involved in a World that incorporates all forms of competition (not just combat too!), that's infact how content and the multiplayer aspect becomes ultimately rewarding and where you rely on allies and friends the most.


    I'm not convinced in the slightest that mainstream "mmo" practices such as WoW and FF14 are the correct way to go about creating and engaging a world that players properly interact and rely on eachother, these instanced/solo based games have just showcased how the easy business of enticing players with too much B grade content and lore are successful + they get an online chat space while doing /dance in town.
    Those games hold a fair amount of people who spend too much time indoors/on the internet but don't like any form of conflict (reasons too personal)(heavily PvE/Quest/Lore orientated) but I feel Ashe's can do better and stretch out to the wider audience of people currently locked in MOBA's/FPS/Sports games, essentially evolving the genre.
  • JahlonJahlon Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
    edited January 14
    So a few things.

    1: Guy's name is Steven.
    2: There are no corpse runs. You respawn at a spawn point
    3: There is no official drop rate percentage. I don't know where you got 40% but you need to do your homework.
    4: Corruption WILL stop ganking. The penalty is harsh. Will it stop ALL ganking? No. Then again, its not intended to.

    hpsmlCJ.jpg
    Make sure to check out Ashes 101
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 14
    @Jahlon I'm also pretty thrilled for the Bounty Hunting system as an added solution.

    Tbh I feel more sorry for the people who enjoy a bit of PvP than the casuals :D (Going away from the topic) My only concern is with the severity of reduced combat effectiveness with higher levels of corruption, from a theme perspective it's good that a character would start to get exhausted but if they are going to be potentially hunted down + randomer's attacking surely if they find somewhere quiet they could potentially rest/camp their combat debuff away but not their corruption score.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Azherae wrote: »
    but I can't play more now so I guess I'll have to devote some of my playtime tomorrow that I planned to spend on rearranging my new furniture 'finding a new place to live entirely'.

    I can't wait until someone loots my house. I can't wait until someone stops me from rearranging my furniture because they're brutally murdering me and bathing in my blood, sitting in my lazyboy and eating my doritos.

    I know you have deeper points with what you were saying Azherae, I'm just making my point lol.

    To the OP, that's why were here and not on Pantheon Rise of the Fallens forums. For the possibility that these things can happen. Most of us want it controlled, and for there to be consequences for continual murdering of players, to keep it in check. But we want that possibility. I don't agree with your ideas and think they would be horrible for the game. I think your impression of how griefy the game is going to be is wrong.

    There's a lot of specifics we don't know yet. But Intrepid has said their goal is for the game to not become a gankbox.

  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    While certainly not a clear prediction of what things will be like when the game is released, our Alpha 1 experience may shed some light on what to expect. I can only describe my own experience, which may not be typical.

    I spent most of my time on PvE, though I did participate in sieges. I was attacked in non-consensual PvP, but not very often, perhaps a dozen times. I usually fought back and lost, occasionally I won. A few times I didn't fight back and let the attacker go red, then I would come back and try to hunt them down.

    Since someone in Alpha 1 (I think) is more likely to be a hard-core gamer then will be the general population after release, I likely saw more attacks than the normal player will see. Overall, my PvE was able to proceed without serious interruption. Also, when I died, I was often able to come back and pick up what I dropped, meaning I only lost a little bit of time. Remember that the attackers were playing with low level disposable (non-permeant) toons which they could throw away easier than a higher-level post release character.

    My limited experience leads me to believe that griefing will not be a constant problem after release.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sawtooth wrote: »
    What I disagree with is casual players trying to change the very core systems of AoC to accommodate all of their fears. They should at least try the game as the devs imagined it before they say it should be like WoW or whatever game they think they like. And if after trying it they prefer another game, it’s ok for them to go play that game instead.

    But changing the very core systems of AoC would be a mistake. Most people hardcore and not are hyped for this game because of the vision and systems that Steven/Intrepid have been talking about.
    I think there are just as many hardcore people "trying to change the very core systems of AoC to accommodate all of their fears" by asking for Corruption mechanics to not be so harsh.
    We will always have people asking for stuff to change before we test it, but...
    Yeah, we should test it first before expecting the devs to drastically change their designs.
  • Ladies and Gentlemen,

    maybe I have been misunderstood. I am not asking for changing the setup of the game.
    I am interested in the question, IF potential customers (casuals?) dislike the game too
    much due to it's setup, can it keep being running profitable without them ?

    As I mentioned before: I would expect to join an animate and challenging world but that
    requires unfortunately money and players ...

    Kind regards
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Silberwolf wrote: »
    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    maybe I have been misunderstood. I am not asking for changing the setup of the game.
    I am interested in the question, IF potential customers (casuals?) dislike the game too
    much due to it's setup, can it keep being running profitable without them ?

    As I mentioned before: I would expect to join an animate and challenging world but that
    requires unfortunately money and players ...

    Kind regards

    I'd say the answer is 'obviously' no, but not just because it would be niche.

    The problem with a PvP game that is niche, especially an MMO, is that server geographical location matters. You can't just 'drop people all on the same server and hope'. A western MMO has it even worse.

    I absolutely wouldn't want it to die, but I think it would, or become oddly skewed, given the number of players it takes for the underlying systems to work.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Of course if not enough people like and play a game, it will die. To cut to the chase, there's instantly going to be two groups who don't like the game. People who only like games where they can turn pvp off. And people who only like hardcore pvp games where they can kill whoever they want with no consequences and fully loot all gear and items from their kills.

    Neither one of those groups are getting what they want. The goal of the system is to attract enough people in the middle of those two positions to sustain the game. The owner of the game has bet millions of dollars on the idea that he can create a game that will appeal to enough people in the middle.

    We will of course have to wait and see how it all ends up. But I think he's right in his bet.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 15
    There will also almost certainly be "unofficial" pve and roleplay servers that the community designates. (Official pve/roleplay servers have already been ruled out, rulesets will be the same across servers.) But just follow the forums and reddit come launch time, find out those servers and you'll end up on a server with a lot more likeminded people as you.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 15
    NishUK wrote: »
    I feel if systems are spot on then players with less time or who are inexperienced with competitive gaming aspects will warm to the idea of being involved in a World that incorporates all forms of competition (not just combat too!), that's in fact how content and the multiplayer aspect becomes ultimately rewarding and where you rely on allies and friends the most.
    I don't play RPGs for competition. I play RPGs for cooperation.
    It's the cooperation with other players that makes the multiplayer aspect rewarding in an RPG; not the competition.
    If I wanted competition, I play a MOBA or an Esports game.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 15
    Dygz wrote: »
    It's the cooperation with other players that makes the multiplayer aspect rewarding in an RPG; not the competition.

    Nearly everything is at least a subtle form of competition, you as a person might be completely void of the need for any competitive aspects and just simply want to hang with and help others, fine enough.

    Most gamer's in the world are attached to games that sing "get stronger, win", it's unavoidable , most people are equipped in striving to get stronger, it's part of survival. They win the brain juices kick in and they feel great, they lose and they get super salty and don't want to feel like that again, both help make people try harder.

    Subtle competition or actual competition imo isn't anything that skews an MMO to be something that it's not (moba or a sport), it's just natural for an online game where many players live, co-exist and have a many, broad range of activities to accomplish to have those elements:
    - Economy wise, In Ultima Online there were guys competing to make the most popular shop. Lineage 2 you had cheeky private stall buy and sell contests. Money in MMO's with a serious economy (via v.expensive item goals) displays the best and worst in people, it's a great competitive aspect.
    - Gear and cosmetics people get competitive over, obviously people don't say and shout to others without "haha you lost" but that person inside is feeling like a winner because they have something others don't. For the people that don't have that, they are fighting for it.

    I feel with the MMO genre as it's currently stood for the past 5 years, probably more, we're left at the bottom of the barrel in regards to player demographics. "People" say that FF14 is one of the greatest of the genre, well I know plenty who aren't impressed by it and it's a fact that collectively the mmo genre makes only for a very small pie of the online space.

    Ashe's have a chance to promote the game to a wider audience...from the mainstream genre's that have squashed the mmo genre, I don't mind if my "mindless winning means everything" brothers might have some form of heavy influence on the world but I feel you would.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited January 15
    I agree that gamers typically crave competition.
    RPers probably have competition down much lower in their hierarchy of motivations for playing an RPG.
    Same with explorers, crafters and decorators, etc.

    Also, I'm finding that a lot of people who were hardcore gamers in their teens and 20s are becoming much more casual (caring less about competition) as they move into their 40s and 50s.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Also, I'm finding that a lot of people who were hardcore gamers in their teens and 20s are becoming much more casual (caring less about competition) as they move into their 40s and 50s.

    This is so very true ... at least for the majorirty of those players :)
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 15
    Dygz wrote: »
    Also, I'm finding that a lot of people who were hardcore gamers in their teens and 20s are becoming much more casual (caring less about competition) as they move into their 40s and 50s.

    I'm moving toward the latter, I haven't changed.

    I get the thrill of a much more refined co-op experience from the likes of a once a week d&d session. It's also clear to me that someone like Steven is still hyped and ready for a much better thought out Archeage-esk experience. Most games that have ever existed in the world focus on an experience that can be played and enjoyed at their own leisure, I don't know why a game like AoC has to mold to precisely that category.
    I feel people should be more excited about the possibility of a game world that actually has much more function and meaning.
    Silberwolf wrote: »
    This is so very true ... at least for the majorirty of those players :)

    Assumption :/
  • There are no Carebear servers. You can't turn your PVP flag off. There is a corruption system which may discourage "senseless" killing of players which we don't have the full details yet. Casual players can still play the game. A player could join a guild. The guild may offer the player protection. Like in Eve Online there could be gathering runs where a group of gathers go for materials and are escorted by other players. Steven has said that a person could be a merchant. So, a player could work on their processing and crafting skills focusing on being an artisan. Perhaps, they hire guards to protect their wares from city to city. If a person quits after dying 5 times, then they have never played an MMO before or maybe video games aren't for them. I hear CSPAN runs 24 hours a day for riveting political discussion.

    carebear-carebears.gif
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member
    edited January 15
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    Of course if not enough people like and play a game, it will die. To cut to the chase, there's instantly going to be two groups who don't like the game. People who only like games where they can turn pvp off. And people who only like hardcore pvp games where they can kill whoever they want with no consequences and fully loot all gear and items from their kills.

    You're right, @Okeydoke ... and it's surprising how many players of those subsets have already been clamoring for game changes in the Forums.

    From multiple players in one "seafaring" PK guild that wanted a safe haven from corruption ... to recent threads from PvE carebears asking for a PvP flagging opt-out.
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