DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Chess is competitive - that is not a sport. Not all competitions are sports.
So, sure. Sports are a subset of games. Games are a subset of competitions.
What makes you think that PvEers want static worlds??
Chess is competitive - that is not a sport. Not all competitions are sports.
So, sure. Sports are a subset of games. Games are a subset of competitions.
Google says that even the Olympic Committee recognizes Chess as a sport.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2022
I dunno that that matters. You can find some people that will call the Earth flat.
I'm pretty sure we don't want people playing chess on the football field while we are trying to play football.
And I'm certain we don't want people trying to play football among the chess tables while we are trying to play chess.
I dunno that that matters. You can find some people that will call the Earth flat.
I'm pretty sure we don't want people playing chess on the football field while we are trying to play football.
And I'm certain we don't want people trying to play football among the chess tables while we are trying to play chess.
I mean, official Olympic Committee is a fair bit better than people who believe in flat earth, but whatever really. You exert yourself in both football and chess. You use your brain in both and you use your body in both. To different extent in either of those, but the usage is still there. Yes, you don't cross them together by playing football on chess boards or chess on the football field, but both of them can be sports because they make use of your body to, sometimes, extreme extents. And they can appeal to the same people for maybe even same reasons.
The same could be said about fps and mmo genres. A long hardcore raid could be similar in feel to an fps tournament bracket, because in both situations you need to exert yourself to the max across several hours of peak concentration and precise actions. And most of the time both of those are done in a team of people, so there's that similarity too. And obviously there's the competitive side to it as @Percimes mentioned. World first raid runs or top 1 on the pvp ladder could be as alluring to an fps player as a tournament win or their own rank ladder. So I can definitely see why fps players would be interested in mmos and especially pvp mmos that Ashes promises to be.
I would expect FPS folk to not enjoy Atlas or New World.
If you're talking about the stereotypical hardcore fps player who's all about hitting "sick flick shotz bRo," I get what you're saying. I was talking more about just the average fps player.
My fps friends enjoyed Atlas and New World, as much as those games could be enjoyed lol. But no, the average fps player tends not to understand mmos as much and what they're supposed to be.
Just take this conversation I had with a friend about New World dated 9/27/21. New World released on 9/28.
They had no idea. But they were still interested and played it. So did I, hoping for a miracle.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2022
The average MMOFPS players understand MMOFPSs just fine. And enjoy them.
New World is not an MMOFPS. That conversation doesn't tell me anythingabout what changes would be needed to make New World enjoyable for FPS players.
But, more importantly, it going to be disastrous to have bunch of FPS players trying to have FPS fun in an MMORPG just because they want a new "MMO". They need to be players who enjoy playing RPGs like RPGs.
And if they are, there's not much point in referring to them as FPS players.
New World was supposed to be a hardcore PvP game.
The devs then decided they wanted to entice PvE players.
By doing so, they watered down the PvP so much that they alienated the core PvP community.
And, since PvE was an afterthought, the PvE also wasn't all that great.
Devs need to know who their primary audience and focus the marketing towards them.
That new golf course just needs to focus on golfers and also do some general marketing. There will be some football players who also like to play golf.
But you don't try to entice footbal teams to come play on the golf course just because they are disillusioned with their current footbal field. And you shouldn't be expecting the golf course to end their desire for a proper football field.
That conversation doesn't tell me anythingabout what changes would be needed to make New World enjoyable for FPS players.
I didn't post that convo to explain what changes New World needed. I posted it as a nod to your suggestion that fps players and mmo players are different beasts. He couldn't see something that I as an mmo player could see, in how New World would turn out. Flat out told me I was wrong lol, that the game was gonna be fine. I had already previously told him all the problems and flaws the game had.
Anyway, I think we mostly agree. Fps players are different beasts than mmo players. But it is my opinion that there's a good bit of fps primary players who are looking for a good mmo, and I think Ashes will draw some of them in.
But it is my opinion that there's a good bit of fps primary players who are looking for a good mmo, and I think Ashes will draw some of them in.
While fine as an opinion, I am of the opinion that this game will be too punitive to people playing it as a second or third game for any competitive person (all FPS players I know are very competitive) to stand playing.
In my experience, FPS first players love the idea of having an MMO as a second or third game to play - but only because they don't consider the time and effort needed in an MMO in order to stay at the top.
I'm not talking about people that will play it as a second or third game. I'm talking about the ones that try it and end up liking it and maining it for some time. Not talking about the hardcore super competitive fps players either. Just the average fps main gamer, of which there are hundreds of millions worldwide.
Some small percentage of them who have an mmo itch will try it. And some percentage of those who try it, will main it for some time. It's not going to be some crazy amount. But relative to many other mmos, I think Ashes has a better chance of drawing some of these people in because of it's pvp systems, among other reasons.
I'm fully aware that for a lot of fps players, mmos are like their kryptonite. Grinding? Leveling? Pve? 20 keybinds? Yeah right, they want nothing to do with it. But the group isn't a monolith. There's variation in their gaming needs and desires, because they're human lol. Not robots.
Works the other way too, where mmo mains decide to main an fps for awhile because it suits what they're looking for at the time.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm not talking about people that will play it as a second or third game. I'm talking about the ones that try it and end up liking it and maining it for some time. Not talking about the hardcore super competitive fps players either. Just the average fps main gamer, of which there are hundreds of millions worldwide.
Some small percentage of them who have an mmo itch will try it. And some percentage of those who try it, will main it for some time. It's not going to be some crazy amount. But relative to many other mmos, I think Ashes has a better chance of drawing some of these people in because of it's pvp systems, among other reasons.
I'm fully aware that for a lot of fps players, mmos are like their kryptonite. Grinding? Leveling? Pve? 20 keybinds? Yeah right, they want nothing to do with it. But the group isn't a monolith. There's variation in their gaming needs and desires, because they're human lol. Not robots.
Works the other way too, where mmo mains decide to main an fps for awhile because it suits what they're looking for at the time.
In my experience (yours may differ, but I can't speak to your experience), people that come from either FPS backgrounds never tend to stick to one game for long. They don't even stick to one FPS game for long.
BR and MOBA first players tend to stick to the one game much longer, even when they shift genres.
Since an MMORPG wants a lifespan that is measured in decades, not weeks or months, making changes specifically to appeal to FPS players seems like a really bad, somewhat desperate move.
This isn't to say that there aren't long lived FPS games out there (I believe CS;GO is still around), just that players of FPS games tend to hop around the specific game they are playing at what is - to an MMO player - frankly an alarming speed.
Yeah definitely, they're a more fickle bunch. I know the general stereotype you're referring to, and it's accurate. I wasn't trying to give an "omg the FPSers are coming!!" impression with what I said. Like hordes of fps players will descend upon Ashes or something lol. More so just that I think there will be a higher rate of crossover in Ashes compared to other mmos.
And no I don't think changes should be made specifically to appeal to FPS players. Not sure if I said something to give that impression. But no absolutely not. Not every fps player needs an mmo to specifically appeal to them anyway. Some of them just want to play a good mmo.
I REALLY dislike how you guys are basically saying an mmo is a set static like games such as WoW or G2W, where things like lore and the like are too special to leave out of the core reason as to why people should be playing (ie making the seperation of mmo players and FPS players).
Lineage 2, is the perfect example of an mmo that people are still massively fond of that barely any dungeoning or lore, it's all about what a lot of people can accomplish and fight for. For the modern era of gaming, a game like this can be improved upon massively be enriching gameplay and reworking, smartly certain features that could lose a lot of progress, as to accommodate players like Asmongold (such things as, Korean enchanting systems where you win big or lose it all).
I completely disagree with the premise with making mmo's strictly for mmo players, an mmo has the potential to be deep enough to be all encompassing and accommodating for a wide variety of players, from your competitive FPS players to players/girlfriends who partake in a bit of time on The Sims. Otherwise like all mmo's of this past decade, your world isn't going to be populated enough.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2022
Um. Planetside was an MMOFPS.
So I have no clue what you mean when you contrast MMO players with FPS players.
Also, no, there's not a lot of potential to have disparate playstyles all playing on the same servers.
There's a reason why MMORPGs typically have separate servers for PvP, PvE and RP.
And, why it's typical for the PvE servers to have the highest populations.
It's not like the PvP-Optional servers have the highest populations.
There's a reason why the people who were looking forward to having New World be a PvP-centric game became irate when the gameplay changed to focus on PvE. They didn't just say, "Yay. Cool. More people to populate the world."
An RPG where people ignore dungeons and lore is not a good thing. And that is pretty much my point.
If Ashes becomes a game where most players ignore dungeons and lore due to an indundation of FPS players, that's a disaster.
Because sure, that's an MMO. But, RPG players want to be playing an RPG with other RPG players; not just an MMO with decent combat.
Lineage 2, is the perfect example of an mmo that people are still massively fond of that barely any dungeoning or lore, it's all about what a lot of people can accomplish and fight for.
I'm sure the dozens of people that still play L2 agree with you.
Because sure, that's an MMO. But, RPG players want to be playing an RPG with other RPG players; not just an MMO with decent combat.
And the game should try to have that decent combat on top of good lore. That way the mmo players can fight each other with decent combat, while the rpg players concentrate on the lore of the places where the mmo players are fighting. That's the whole point of an mmorpg imo. You combine the two, otherwise you just have a multiplayer game and a separate rpg game, of which we have many.
And allegedly that's exactly what Steven is trying to do. Have some deep lore, while the nodes/castles/guilds wage war around lore bosses and dungeons.
new world stopped making the game pvp only, because they realised they will loose a lot of money if their game caters for niche gamers in the count of hundreds, maybe breaking even breaking the 4 digit mark
After all a lot of those people are just nostalgic about a time when they "pwnd n00bs" on their local realms
I understand even though you omit your requirements for the game - which I suppose is character progression-centric, because otherwise you would have most likely sated your pvp improvement nostalgia in other genres - most likely MOBA's
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Because sure, that's an MMO. But, RPG players want to be playing an RPG with other RPG players; not just an MMO with decent combat.
And the game should try to have that decent combat on top of good lore. That way the mmo players can fight each other with decent combat, while the rpg players concentrate on the lore of the places where the mmo players are fighting. That's the whole point of an mmorpg imo. You combine the two, otherwise you just have a multiplayer game and a separate rpg game, of which we have many.
And allegedly that's exactly what Steven is trying to do. Have some deep lore, while the nodes/castles/guilds wage war around lore bosses and dungeons.
Decent combat is part of RPG gameplay.
But, combat that is great for an FPS is not necessarily great for an RPG.
Again...I don't understand why you try to separate MMO from FPS.
An MMO player enjoys multiple types of MMOs. Probably more than two types. Probably many types of MMOs.
An FPS player prefers to play First Person Shooters. MMOFPS included.
An RPG player prefers to play Rolelaying Games. MMOPRGs included. MMORPG players typically hope to RP to some degree while playing, even during combat.
So...no. In an MMORPG, RP should not be separated from the combat.
In the past decade or so, we've been getting MMORPGs where people rarely RP. Which is why Steven wants Ashes to bring the RPG back to MMORPG.
I understand even though you omit your requirements for the game - which I suppose is character progression-centric, because otherwise you would have most likely sated your pvp improvement nostalgia in other genres - most likely MOBA's
I played some dota 2 back in the day, but it's not as interesting as pvp mmos. Mainly for, yes, the character progression. I'm completely fine with dying in pvp for a few months at the hands of stronger players if I know for sure that I can become one of those stronger players later on and win against them and others. And then get people who outprogress me. Rinse and repeat.
Screw the old monikers! Cut the ties with "established" genre! AoC should leave them behind and label itself a MMEOW: massively multiplayer evolving online world.
Cats would love it! And since the internet loves cats... All win.
Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
LMFAO
Let's see if Ombwah can convince Steven to go there.
Screw the old monikers! Cut the ties with "established" genre! AoC should leave them behind and label itself a MMEOW: massively multiplayer evolving online world.
Cats would love it! And since the internet loves cats... All win.
I REALLY dislike how you guys are basically saying an mmo is a set static like games such as WoW or G2W, where things like lore and the like are too special to leave out of the core reason as to why people should be playing (ie making the seperation of mmo players and FPS players).
I hear ya man. Can't say I agree with everything line by line. But yeah I mean I've played mmos for 25 years. Do not care about lore in any substantial way. Almost never read it. Nevertheless, the mmo that I may play is a world, and preferably I'd like there to be some kind of story behind it, what the world is, why it's here, why it's the way it is.
But is it a requirement to be a lore junkie or dungeon fiend to play/enjoy mmos? Absolutely not.
In the past decade or so, we've been getting MMORPGs where people rarely RP. Which is why Steven wants Ashes to bring the RPG back to MMORPG.
"Roleplaying" is not anywhere close to a large audience until at least, potentially, the introduction of almost virtual reality worlds where people can convey and actually see each other properly and that won't be prioritising much gameplay most likely. D&D (cam+mic) already meets all roleplaying needs, the only thing introducing a game prioritizing a RP experience would do is give access to a % userbase that is socially inept, unable to make much human connections, just to be in an "over the net" d&d experience...
'MMORPG' is just an old and gold plated term, Story driven game 'SDG' 'MMOSDG' (<defo in FF14's case...) would be something way more accurate for quite a few popular cases.
MMO'ers want to "RP a bit" during battle? I've gone through mmo's since 1999 and I've barely experienced this.
MMO'ers want a class that fits their personality, they will continue to portray their real life persona's, without nearly as much discipline tho ;p
Steven is trying to build a close to perfect mmo, it's really as simple as that, every mmo in history has had a huge flaw or caters only to one particular audience.
Also, from an earlier post, I'm sorry but 'PVE/PVP/RP' servers are, ridiculous!
PvP is obv the main culprit as to why some mmo's did this but it's only because the game system rewards PvP too heavily, quick examples - you die and return to town, you die and you lose something (durability, gear, items), you have no chance of pvping for zones vs hardcore and there is no alternative to high money/item acquiring.
If you separate the playerbases, you're practically cementing that your MMO will only be 3rd rate (lower pop, less social, less "healthy" drama's/competition), unless ofc...you bin most mmo elements and create a whole game inside an "mmo" like FF14.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2022
No. Steven is specifically trying to put the RPG back into MMORPG, rather than provide a generic MMO.
I don't think I have suggested segregating playerbases.
Comments
So, sure. Sports are a subset of games. Games are a subset of competitions.
What makes you think that PvEers want static worlds??
I'm pretty sure we don't want people playing chess on the football field while we are trying to play football.
And I'm certain we don't want people trying to play football among the chess tables while we are trying to play chess.
The same could be said about fps and mmo genres. A long hardcore raid could be similar in feel to an fps tournament bracket, because in both situations you need to exert yourself to the max across several hours of peak concentration and precise actions. And most of the time both of those are done in a team of people, so there's that similarity too. And obviously there's the competitive side to it as @Percimes mentioned. World first raid runs or top 1 on the pvp ladder could be as alluring to an fps player as a tournament win or their own rank ladder. So I can definitely see why fps players would be interested in mmos and especially pvp mmos that Ashes promises to be.
If you're talking about the stereotypical hardcore fps player who's all about hitting "sick flick shotz bRo," I get what you're saying. I was talking more about just the average fps player.
My fps friends enjoyed Atlas and New World, as much as those games could be enjoyed lol. But no, the average fps player tends not to understand mmos as much and what they're supposed to be.
Just take this conversation I had with a friend about New World dated 9/27/21. New World released on 9/28.
They had no idea. But they were still interested and played it. So did I, hoping for a miracle.
New World is not an MMOFPS. That conversation doesn't tell me anythingabout what changes would be needed to make New World enjoyable for FPS players.
But, more importantly, it going to be disastrous to have bunch of FPS players trying to have FPS fun in an MMORPG just because they want a new "MMO". They need to be players who enjoy playing RPGs like RPGs.
And if they are, there's not much point in referring to them as FPS players.
New World was supposed to be a hardcore PvP game.
The devs then decided they wanted to entice PvE players.
By doing so, they watered down the PvP so much that they alienated the core PvP community.
And, since PvE was an afterthought, the PvE also wasn't all that great.
Devs need to know who their primary audience and focus the marketing towards them.
That new golf course just needs to focus on golfers and also do some general marketing. There will be some football players who also like to play golf.
But you don't try to entice footbal teams to come play on the golf course just because they are disillusioned with their current footbal field. And you shouldn't be expecting the golf course to end their desire for a proper football field.
I didn't post that convo to explain what changes New World needed. I posted it as a nod to your suggestion that fps players and mmo players are different beasts. He couldn't see something that I as an mmo player could see, in how New World would turn out. Flat out told me I was wrong lol, that the game was gonna be fine. I had already previously told him all the problems and flaws the game had.
Anyway, I think we mostly agree. Fps players are different beasts than mmo players. But it is my opinion that there's a good bit of fps primary players who are looking for a good mmo, and I think Ashes will draw some of them in.
In my experience, FPS first players love the idea of having an MMO as a second or third game to play - but only because they don't consider the time and effort needed in an MMO in order to stay at the top.
Some small percentage of them who have an mmo itch will try it. And some percentage of those who try it, will main it for some time. It's not going to be some crazy amount. But relative to many other mmos, I think Ashes has a better chance of drawing some of these people in because of it's pvp systems, among other reasons.
I'm fully aware that for a lot of fps players, mmos are like their kryptonite. Grinding? Leveling? Pve? 20 keybinds? Yeah right, they want nothing to do with it. But the group isn't a monolith. There's variation in their gaming needs and desires, because they're human lol. Not robots.
Works the other way too, where mmo mains decide to main an fps for awhile because it suits what they're looking for at the time.
In my experience (yours may differ, but I can't speak to your experience), people that come from either FPS backgrounds never tend to stick to one game for long. They don't even stick to one FPS game for long.
BR and MOBA first players tend to stick to the one game much longer, even when they shift genres.
Since an MMORPG wants a lifespan that is measured in decades, not weeks or months, making changes specifically to appeal to FPS players seems like a really bad, somewhat desperate move.
This isn't to say that there aren't long lived FPS games out there (I believe CS;GO is still around), just that players of FPS games tend to hop around the specific game they are playing at what is - to an MMO player - frankly an alarming speed.
And no I don't think changes should be made specifically to appeal to FPS players. Not sure if I said something to give that impression. But no absolutely not. Not every fps player needs an mmo to specifically appeal to them anyway. Some of them just want to play a good mmo.
Lineage 2, is the perfect example of an mmo that people are still massively fond of that barely any dungeoning or lore, it's all about what a lot of people can accomplish and fight for. For the modern era of gaming, a game like this can be improved upon massively be enriching gameplay and reworking, smartly certain features that could lose a lot of progress, as to accommodate players like Asmongold (such things as, Korean enchanting systems where you win big or lose it all).
I completely disagree with the premise with making mmo's strictly for mmo players, an mmo has the potential to be deep enough to be all encompassing and accommodating for a wide variety of players, from your competitive FPS players to players/girlfriends who partake in a bit of time on The Sims. Otherwise like all mmo's of this past decade, your world isn't going to be populated enough.
So I have no clue what you mean when you contrast MMO players with FPS players.
Also, no, there's not a lot of potential to have disparate playstyles all playing on the same servers.
There's a reason why MMORPGs typically have separate servers for PvP, PvE and RP.
And, why it's typical for the PvE servers to have the highest populations.
It's not like the PvP-Optional servers have the highest populations.
There's a reason why the people who were looking forward to having New World be a PvP-centric game became irate when the gameplay changed to focus on PvE. They didn't just say, "Yay. Cool. More people to populate the world."
An RPG where people ignore dungeons and lore is not a good thing. And that is pretty much my point.
If Ashes becomes a game where most players ignore dungeons and lore due to an indundation of FPS players, that's a disaster.
Because sure, that's an MMO. But, RPG players want to be playing an RPG with other RPG players; not just an MMO with decent combat.
And allegedly that's exactly what Steven is trying to do. Have some deep lore, while the nodes/castles/guilds wage war around lore bosses and dungeons.
After all a lot of those people are just nostalgic about a time when they "pwnd n00bs" on their local realms
― Plato
― Plato
But, combat that is great for an FPS is not necessarily great for an RPG.
Again...I don't understand why you try to separate MMO from FPS.
An MMO player enjoys multiple types of MMOs. Probably more than two types. Probably many types of MMOs.
An FPS player prefers to play First Person Shooters. MMOFPS included.
An RPG player prefers to play Rolelaying Games. MMOPRGs included. MMORPG players typically hope to RP to some degree while playing, even during combat.
So...no. In an MMORPG, RP should not be separated from the combat.
In the past decade or so, we've been getting MMORPGs where people rarely RP. Which is why Steven wants Ashes to bring the RPG back to MMORPG.
Cats would love it! And since the internet loves cats... All win.
Let's see if Ombwah can convince Steven to go there.
I see no issues here
I hear ya man. Can't say I agree with everything line by line. But yeah I mean I've played mmos for 25 years. Do not care about lore in any substantial way. Almost never read it. Nevertheless, the mmo that I may play is a world, and preferably I'd like there to be some kind of story behind it, what the world is, why it's here, why it's the way it is.
But is it a requirement to be a lore junkie or dungeon fiend to play/enjoy mmos? Absolutely not.
"Roleplaying" is not anywhere close to a large audience until at least, potentially, the introduction of almost virtual reality worlds where people can convey and actually see each other properly and that won't be prioritising much gameplay most likely. D&D (cam+mic) already meets all roleplaying needs, the only thing introducing a game prioritizing a RP experience would do is give access to a % userbase that is socially inept, unable to make much human connections, just to be in an "over the net" d&d experience...
'MMORPG' is just an old and gold plated term, Story driven game 'SDG' 'MMOSDG' (<defo in FF14's case...) would be something way more accurate for quite a few popular cases.
MMO'ers want to "RP a bit" during battle? I've gone through mmo's since 1999 and I've barely experienced this.
MMO'ers want a class that fits their personality, they will continue to portray their real life persona's, without nearly as much discipline tho ;p
Steven is trying to build a close to perfect mmo, it's really as simple as that, every mmo in history has had a huge flaw or caters only to one particular audience.
Also, from an earlier post, I'm sorry but 'PVE/PVP/RP' servers are, ridiculous!
PvP is obv the main culprit as to why some mmo's did this but it's only because the game system rewards PvP too heavily, quick examples - you die and return to town, you die and you lose something (durability, gear, items), you have no chance of pvping for zones vs hardcore and there is no alternative to high money/item acquiring.
If you separate the playerbases, you're practically cementing that your MMO will only be 3rd rate (lower pop, less social, less "healthy" drama's/competition), unless ofc...you bin most mmo elements and create a whole game inside an "mmo" like FF14.
I don't think I have suggested segregating playerbases.