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Off Tanking
Nerror
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
In all this talk of augments and secondary archetypes, the tank archetype is brought up quite often. Can xxx/tank classes main tank or only off tank? And similar questions, which leads me to this:
What is the role of an Off Tank in Ashes, and what do you expect them to be capable of?
I am basically curious to see if most people agree on what Off Tanking is and how it ties into the class system in Ashes. A tank in MMOs in general have two things they must be able to do, which is 1. keep the enemies away from the other people in the group as much as possible, and 2. be able to survive long enough for the enemies to die first. That's it. Everything else is fluff.
An Off Tank, to me, is someone who can offload some of the pressure from the main tank. They typically have less damage mitigation than a main tank, but also have either higher DPS or higher self-healing than the main tank, and they have some sort of mechanic to hold the attention of enemies. They are often used to handle adds in boss fights.
In some games I have seen the term "Off Tanking" being used in raid situations, where one main tank takes the aggro from another main tank in order to survive a certain boss mechanic. To me that's just tank swapping, not off tanking.
For Ashes, I expect one of the four schools of augmentation from the secondary tank archetype to add threat generation to a skill. And another school of augmentation will add some damage mitigation to a skill, perhaps through temporarily lowering the damage output of the enemy.
In other words, I think xxx/tank classes can off tank with the right gear and spec.
Can off tanks or xxx/tanks function as main tanks in group content (8 people)? Yes and no. If the group is near the minimum level for the content and don't have really good gear, then no. I think a tank/xxx is needed. If the content is on farm and the group is well geared, then absolutely yes; I think the off tank can handle the group bosses and adds in most cases.
I don't expect them to be able to main tank in raid content (40 people). Nor do I want them to. I can see a well geared off tank handle some raid boss adds perhaps, but not easily. I want the choice to go tank/xxx to be meaningful. I want them to be better tanks than any other class in pretty much all situations.
What is the role of an Off Tank in Ashes, and what do you expect them to be capable of?
I am basically curious to see if most people agree on what Off Tanking is and how it ties into the class system in Ashes. A tank in MMOs in general have two things they must be able to do, which is 1. keep the enemies away from the other people in the group as much as possible, and 2. be able to survive long enough for the enemies to die first. That's it. Everything else is fluff.
An Off Tank, to me, is someone who can offload some of the pressure from the main tank. They typically have less damage mitigation than a main tank, but also have either higher DPS or higher self-healing than the main tank, and they have some sort of mechanic to hold the attention of enemies. They are often used to handle adds in boss fights.
In some games I have seen the term "Off Tanking" being used in raid situations, where one main tank takes the aggro from another main tank in order to survive a certain boss mechanic. To me that's just tank swapping, not off tanking.
For Ashes, I expect one of the four schools of augmentation from the secondary tank archetype to add threat generation to a skill. And another school of augmentation will add some damage mitigation to a skill, perhaps through temporarily lowering the damage output of the enemy.
In other words, I think xxx/tank classes can off tank with the right gear and spec.
Can off tanks or xxx/tanks function as main tanks in group content (8 people)? Yes and no. If the group is near the minimum level for the content and don't have really good gear, then no. I think a tank/xxx is needed. If the content is on farm and the group is well geared, then absolutely yes; I think the off tank can handle the group bosses and adds in most cases.
I don't expect them to be able to main tank in raid content (40 people). Nor do I want them to. I can see a well geared off tank handle some raid boss adds perhaps, but not easily. I want the choice to go tank/xxx to be meaningful. I want them to be better tanks than any other class in pretty much all situations.
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Comments
Usually done by having the tank suffer a debuff.
A good off tank is a build that can tank for the short amount required and then return at full strength being a dps or a healer or a support.
If the above isnt part of the development design/mechanic then off-tanking isn't real. It's just rp.
Expect Tank/x to have the best tool kit for taking compared to any of the other Primary Archetypes.
x/Tanks will also have access to similar tools, to a lesser degree.
Expect x/Tanks to have augments from some type of Threat school, and some type of personal Mitigation school and also from some type of Shield school.
But, those augments won't be as powerful as Active Skills. Expect a Shield Wall from an augment to be less powerful and have a lesser duration than a Shield Wall from an Active Skill.
Expect Threat generated from a Tank augment to be less powerful and have a lesser duration than Threat generated from a Tank Active Skill.
Expect a Rogue/x to be the best at Physical burst damage. Expect a Mage/x to be the best at Magical burst damage. Expect a Bard/x to be the best at buffs. Expect a Cleric/x to be the best at heals/life siphons.
Don't expect an x/Rogue to Rogue better than a Rogue/x in an 8-person group.
Don't expect an x/Mage to Mage better than a Mage/x in an 8-person group.
Don't expect an x/Cleric to Cleric better than a Cleric/x in an 8-person group.
When the devs say they are designing to encounters for 8-person groups with one of each Primary Archetype, that means they are designing with the expectation that there will be a Primary Archetype Tank using Rank 3 or higher Tank Active Skills.
"An Off Tank, to me, is someone who can offload some of the pressure from the main tank. They typically have less damage mitigation than a main tank, but also have either higher DPS or higher self-healing than the main tank, and they have some sort of mechanic to hold the attention of enemies. They are often used to handle adds in boss fights."
----Nerror
I pretty much agree with Nerror.
I think of the off-tank as the person in the group who assists the main tank by doing tanky stuff like maintaining aggro on side mobs, trash mobs and adds while the main tank is focused on maintaining aggro on the boss.
https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Off_tank
I'm not sure what "on-farm" means in Ashes of Creation.
"One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support, and where they're going to be positioned, and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What acolyte skills will be available to them. What is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to use? What mood is he in today?"
---Steve and Jeffrey
If you have two or three x/Tanks in an 8-person group with no Tank/x, you can probably defeat that encounter.
And, sure, one of those might technically be acting as main tank.
But, in a 8-person group with a Tank/x, expect the Tank/x to tank better than the x/Tank.
If it's something like @georgeblack said, that's sounds more like a tank swap boss mechanic. Both tanks still need to be able to take the full brunt of the boss, therefore both need to be the same tier of "tanky'ness"
Now I'll agree in a raid you normally have one tank take lead and the other be second string. This USUALLY isn't determined by class, but by whoever has the better gear or is the better player, class playing into it only when a certain mechanic dictates.
If I have an x/tank filling the tank role, I don't think this would make a tank/x a meaningless choice. As every primary archetype is supposedly getting unique utility abilities. You might still need a tank/fighter to throw down a wall for a fight (or whatever else exclusive they have), even though he has built his character as a beefy DPS. Similar to the idea of I'd rather have a ranger for physical damage dealing, but I will still want a rogue in my group for disarming traps or unlocking doors. In wow, an elemental shaman isn't as strong as a mage, but he has bloodlust, so I still want him in my group.
*Sidenote from that idea*
What if a fighter augment for the charge ability adds a knock back, and if you knock them into terrain it stuns them. Throwing down the tank wall and then charging into it would be a cool combo.
Also I'm use wow as reference because I'm guessing it's the most widely accessed MMO. Most players in the genre have touched it at some point.
Do you have a source for this?
I don't think what you wrote matches the descriptions in the link above.
The two descriptions, there, match what Nerror and georgeblack said.
WoW is not designed around an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype, where one of those is specifically Tank.
WoW is designed to have a 4-person group where several classes can fill the role of main tank.
If you consistently have an x/Tank as main tank in an 8-person group, that means that a Tank/x is not required.
It also means that x/Tank augments are more powerful than Rank 3+ Tank Active Skills - which is absurd and basically makes Rank 3+ Tank Active Skills meaningless.
A Rogue disarming traps and unlocking doors is icing on the cake. Those activities are not required.
Tank/x already has Onslaught Rank 3 which is a charge Active Skill that includes a knock down.
Seems like a Tank/x could probably already accomplish that feat without needing a Fighter augment.
We'll have to see if Fighter still has a Charge Active Skill and what types of effects are added with each Rank. Could be that Fighter/x could also set-up that scenario.
Should especially be possible with Tank/Fighter and Fighter/Tank synergizing their attacks.
The problem with the way you use examples from WoW is that Ashes classes and groups are designed and balanced significantly differently than WoW.
If the content does not have the need for an off tank, the group or raid does not have an off tank.
If the content does require an off tank, the group or raid brings two tanks.
Groups or raids that bring off tanks as standard are chumps.
I would like to know that too, but specifically to the point of off tanks and the trinity, then yes, it's still within the trinity spectrum. The Trinity isn't only about the 3 extreme points in the triangle, there is room for some movement within that triangle too.
That's why I don't understand why there are people who act as though not being the main tank in an 8-person group means that you can't tank at all.
Any x/Tank is a Tank and will be able to tank to some degree.
Expect a Cleric/x or Fighter/x - maybe even a Rogue/x - to be able to tank some.
Just don't expect them to be able to main tank as well as a Tank/x in encounters designed for an 8-person group.
I'd say Off-Tank is tanking - just not as well as the main tank. So, yes, as part of the Trinity, it's either Tank or dialing closer to Tank with their customizations.
They pretty much say that tank/xxx are for the most difficult content like raids, where xxx/tanks can handle easier content. Well, there is more nuance to what they say, so watch the clip. Might be of interest to you @SirChancelot
So this all but confirms that you will require a primary tank archetype to main tank. Assuming they can design the game the way that they want it to be. Any fringe cases where a non-Primary tank class can main tank the "end game content" is not intended and subject to balance tuning.
The way we balance content is around an 8-person party.
Your best position... Essentially, the best balance you can have as a party is incorporating all 8 base Archetypes into your party. So, that's going to be you best bet for completing content.
When we say Archetype, we're really talking mostly about roles. So essentially, you'll first choose one of the 8 Archetypes and that's going to be the Archetype that you can't change. So, that's Tank, Ranger, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Bard and Summoner. When you hit halfway point, up to Level 50, when you hit Level 25, you're going to select your Secondary Archetype which will combine with your Primary to create your class. That Secondary Archetype isn't going to give you new Active Skills. You're only going to get Active Skills from your base, Primary Archetype.
However, what it's going to do is give you augment abilities.
Summit1G:So, you can combine abilities a little bit. An augment ability essentially just changes one ability a little bit.
Steven:Right.
Mark: 1:04:22
There's more in the video, so I encourage people to watch the video.
The relevant key points here are that any time Steven mentions Primary and Secondary Archetypes, he stresses that you only get Active Skills from the Primary Archetype.
When you combine that with balancing around 8-person groups with one of each Primary Archetype, that means the way they will do that is with the expectation of an 8-person party with one of each Primary Archetype using Rank 3+ Active Skills.
"We're not really talking about 64 true classes, we're talking about eight classes with 64 variants, and again how you build those variants depends on how you spend your skill points. you can lean more into your subclass or less into your subclass depending on where you spend your points. There isn't as much variance between the 64 classes as you might expect. It's not like there are you know 64 different versions of... radically different classes. there are 8 archetypes 8 classes that all have the same chassis but they have different augments put on tto of that to change the performance of that chassis.
---Jeffrey
The dev quote above is telling us that they are not balancing around augments.
They are balancing around the Active Skills of the Primary Archetypes.
They are not balancing around the augments of the Secondary Archetypes.
It's not necessarily impossible for a Fighter/Tank to main tank in an 8-person group that doesn't have a Tank/x.
But, in an 8-person group with a Tank/x, don't expect the x/Tank to main tank better than the Tank/x.
Steven: To be clear, it's not just the Tank Archetype that can tank. It's just likely that they will be the most effective at tanking.
Which is why I keep saying... x/Tanks can tank.
Just don't expect them to be main tank in an 8-person group with a Tank/x.
Again, I don't understand why that gets any push-back.
What you are you basing the part about Rank 3+ Active Skills on? Could you give me a timestamp for that? The video is pretty long.
Yeah that works for me.
I have said a tank/tank should probably be the easiest tank to play. Having the lowest barrier to entry to learn and use, because he is the tankiest tank to tank with. But that should also have the lowest skill cap ceiling, the lowest damage output, and lowest raid support functions. If you're going to all in on being a tank, then that's all you should have.
I have said I'm all for some tanks being more difficult to use, having that barrier to entry (not for new to tanking players), but allowing for a higher skill cap ceiling (able to pull off more creative plays), more utility to offer the group, better DPS.
Just my two coppers.
Indeed, this is a problem that comes up in competitive games really often, and the solution to it is often difficult to handle, but given the design philosophy of Ashes I'm not terribly worried. My understanding was that Jeff intended people to adjust strategy based on enemy, so there will probably be things that the Tank/Tank is best at Tanking outright, where the simplistic 'all-in' form works optimally, and then there will be other things where that's not the case.
That fight with It Who Sunders the Land and It Which Rends The Sky (I might have the names wrong) was a pretty good indicator of that sort of thing, I think. I can see multiple ways to tank those, but I feel that a Spellshield of a certain build would have the 'easiest' time of it (think Teleportation Augment on something).
That fight might not be the simplest thing for a Tank/Tank to do, but in terms of actually 'just tanking' and protecting their group, I feel like they would still do the best, whereas the Spellshield would do things 'differently' and be able to do more overall.
It's hard to stop people from going 'well if you're not doing the most DPS while tanking and also protecting everyone perfectly, clearly you're not pulling your weight'. At least with the 'all classes use Mana' decision, the overall 'how good you are' effect may not be so hard to balance.
Keep in mind I'm not saying the content is easy, or makes the raid easy to tank for. I'm saying the easiest build to pick up, and learn to use... I totally see it being the easiest to use.
Because onslaught, resounding smash myrmidon's fury, and then lacerate to death, with ultimate defense where applicable, doesn't look like that difficult of a rotation to master.
Maybe so, but remember that no matter what, what is true is what people have been saying all this time about relying on Primary abilities. In other words, all Tanks will do all of those things. The main benefit a Guardian gets over anyone else is PROBABLY that they generate more hate and mitigate more damage when they do those things.
Maybe this might let them spend Skill Points in another different ability, so I actually see it in the opposite way. I expect Tank/X to need to take more different abilities in order to maintain the same level of Threat and get more use out of their augments, whereas Tank/Tank could focus more strongly in other ways, perhaps improving DPS, or similar.
I wouldn't call that 'easier', at all, actually, except in the 'number of actions or decisions you have to make within the battle'. It might just shift your strain to 'decisions in kit'.
Oh
My example there I meant as in using tank augments on those tank primary abilities. Potentially adding threat to abilities that don't already have it, or mitigation on to his damage abilities. I meant literally a double down on those 'tanky' characteristics. If they do that, then yes it should be the tankiest thing in the game. As in best and holding aggro, and hardest thing to kill. And, in my opinion, that would make him easier to use for a beginner. But if a player does that then he wouldn't have access to certain toys and effects that a tank/rogue does for example. Maybe he would have an augment that says when he charges he drops a smoke bomb, and no one outside of the smoke bomb area of effect can Target the tank so they all have to come to him and get close. That would be more tactical play than the tank/tank could do.
I'm moreso theorycrafting that while it would be easy to pick up and get used to tanking this way, the 'top level of skill' might be those Tank/Tank that know exactly how much threat and mitigation they need, and therefore skip certain ability upgrades entirely in favor of additional passives or Weapon Skill options. Basically, using the fact that their Secondary allows them to strengthen their Tankiness, to then 'not upgrade all of the abilities as much', or not unlock any abilities that don't suit their Node's enemies.
That just sounds like player skill and experience to me. All of that optimizing could apply to every class.
That's the point I'm making actually. That the skill required to play Tank/Bard might involve all that optimization from the beginning because without it, one might fail at Tanking, but Tank/Tank would not fail at Tanking as most people understand it, either way. They would actually 'Tank way harder than they need to' if they just took all abilities to max rank the way a Tank/Bard MIGHT need to do.
And then as they gained experience with Tanking, would be able to learn where they could cut back to get other things.
That would give the 'Guardian is easy to Tank with, but to be most effective at doing other things beyond a basic rotation, you have to learn something and improve' that I would expect most people would hope for, while still not making them suboptimal compared to Tank/X, once the player did improve.
They are balancing for the Primary Archetypes to be viable; not the Secondary Archetypes.
It's the Active Skills that count most.
The take I had on this is that summoner/tank is able to tank, to a degree. This is something we had been talking about around this time, so was on their mind at least a little.
What this statement did indeed confirm at the time is that for any hard content, tank/* is required.
Now, if people want to go on about */tank being viable as tanks because they are able to tank trash mobs in a dungeon, have at it. I don't consider that to be how you define a class or character as being a viable tank or not.
To me, your class is viable in a role if it is capable of taking on all content in the game in that role. If it is not, then your class is not viable in that role.
What I got from watching the clip is it depends on your gear and the type of content. So, I think that a X/tank might be able to do a dungeon or even off tank, but it depends on the difficulty level of the tank. To go back to World of Warcraft, with a normal raid you might be able to use X/Tank if the tank is well geared and knows how to tank. I saw that even in Heroics raids where a well geared tank was able to live long enough to solo tank a raid when the second tank died early in the fight. However, with a mythic raid you are going to need Tank/X or maybe two Tank/X to get by the hardest stuff. The same would be that X/tank can do a dungeon run but wouldn't be able to do a +27 mythic key. I think @Noaani is right in that groups will bring archetypes to raid, sieges, and dungeons based on how they are designed. I would like to see some raids where you need four tanks like the four horsemen fight.
Mentioning gear in no way stated that an x/Tank , with proper gear, could main tank better than the Tank/x in an 8-person encounter.
He straight up states: "To be clear, it's not just the Tank Archetype that can tank. It's just likely that they will be the most effective at tanking."
What Steven says about gear is, "Gear can bridge the gap between most efficient as well sometimes."
And, that "sometimes" leaves us with a qualifier of rare, rather than an unqualified generalization.
Steven did not make a definitive statement like, "If you use the proper gear, an x/Tank will be able to main tank in an 8-person group."
You can always try to make that kind of build and see how far you get.
You might be able to succeed - just don't go in with the expectation that it's designed for you to succeed at that. Because the devs aren't balancing to ensure that can happen.
I fully expect that groups will bring Primary Archetypes based on how they're designed. I expect it to be very rare that they choose an x/Tank as main tank for 8-person group encounters... especially not over a Tank/x.
Expect that to be similar to Steven's reply:
Q: " If i use secondary cleric can i heal others?"
A: "indirectly there are some augments when applied to certain skills that can do this. But it would not replace a cleric archetype"