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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Dude stop it.
Tank/x, healer/x, bard/x cant beat DPSmain/x in a pure PvE scenario that requires high DamagePerSecond.
You say cleric/rogue is a dps? Would the cleric/rogue take a dps spot over:
Fighter/rogue
Rogue/rogue
Ranger/rogue
Mage/rogue?
Sure, your cleric/rogue will have it's usefulness in the OVERALL game of AoC, but we are talking about high DPS. Not burst, not sustain, not accessory to the group. DPS.
I shouldnt be surprised that people speak so looselly about archetypes and classes, or the scenario for which a group is formed...
After all, the topic was off-tank, the gameplay design of off-tanking, yet half the people started talking about the viability of x/tank to be the main tank of the group in a topic discussing the need to HELP THE MAIN TANK, in other words, the main tank STRUGGLES. (off-tanking.....)
And the other half took the bait, responding that a tank/x in a raid situation will /partykick any x/tank for the role of main tank (which isnt the topic.. off-tanking).
Just like dps/x will /partykick any tank/dps, healer/dps, bard/dps for the role of pure, high DPS.
If the cleric/rogue is fully built to be a DPS.
All active skills deal damage.
All skill points geared towards bringing DMG
All gear stats are for DPS
That should be a DPS character.
If a player builds his character to be a DPS, then yes, that should be a DPS.
That's what player choice means to me.
What do you think the difference between mages and clerics skills should be?
Because you are talking crazy.
Mages use elemental and spacial magic
Clerics have life and death, de/buff, probably more dot oriented, maybe a life drain approach
And all of that is in an un'augmented state.
You're the one sounding crazy to me...
You are saying that a cleric/mage will be as good as a.... let's say mage/cleric in order for both of them to fulfill the specific need of HIGH DPS?
Are you also saying that a mage/cleric will heal as good as a cleric/mage in a scenario that needs STRONG HEALING?
Because elemental and life/death will be just visuals ye?
Just a re-colouring of the same performance?
Can you reword this? Because the question I'm getting out of this is "why would I want a DoT character when a burst character exists?"
Which is basically the same as asking "Why would I want a fighter, I have a rogue"
Again, I agree they would be two totally different characters, playstyles, using very different abilities. But if they were both designed for being a DPS, then sure why not.
In wow terms, one is a mage one is a shadow priest. S.Priest isn't useless because a mage exists...
I never said that, but it would be interesting to see how cleric augments work on a mage. ( Since we haven't gotten to play with it yet.)
In my 'world view' if the cleric/mage went full DPS with the desire to run as a DPS, then he probably won't be very good at healing. All of his skill points were put into offensive abilities instead of healing ones, and his passive choices were probably damage and crit chance instead of bonus healing and mana regen.
If you want to over simplify it like that, then yes. But that's also like you being able to claim that LITERALLY EVERY DAMAGE SPELL is just a visual difference.
😂😂😂
But, no... This is why I said one would probably be more of a
So mage full into mage wild be a bursty caster, where as a DPS cleric would be a debuff DoT style.
In WoW you could say one is an affliction lock, one is a destruction lock. Both are ranged casters, but different playstyles.
Honestly I don't understand your confusion...
What role would these people fill?
DPS, Tank? Healer?
The bottom of the line is that people need to understand that this is an mmo, and that classess fill absolute roles, even more so when talking about raiding.
A vast majority of people posting here or in discord basically say "I will build my character however I want and beat the game, as if I play a singleplayer like dark souls, completelly ignoring the fact that there are other players, more competitive, that will make meaningful choices and sacrifices thus creating effective builds"
Your dps cleric/mage will go as far as killing overland mobs, solo or in group until lv10 at most.
Then you can either be carried by friends, knowingly or not, that your spec isnt 100% effective for ANY task, or you will be left aside, return to the forums and complain about class balance, while in truth advocating for class homogenization.
Ashes classes are not designed like WoW. The Ashes devs are not going to try to balance the classes in the same manner that WoW devs balance WoW classes.
Again, Steven would say that Mage augments allow a Cleric Primary Archetype to move the dial closer to the Mage role and closer to the (magical) DPS Trinity spot... a little bit.
Don't expect a Cleric/Mage to be a better Mage than Mage/x. And...Cleric/Mage is also unlikely to be better at (magical) DPS than a Mage/x.
But, sure, Cleric/Mage could use Critical Hit gear and Passive Skills, like Critical Hit Rate, to maximize their DPS. Could be that a Py'Rai would have some Racial augments that would increase (magical) DPS...along with Mage DPS augments.
You could create what amounts to a DPS Cleric - just as you could create and Evasion Tank... but...
Still don't expect that Cleric/Mage to (magical) DPS better than a Mage/x.
(I think George Black is asking how a DoT is going to be better at DPS than burst damage.)
Anyway, in PvP or even non raiding PvE, experimenting with builds (as long as you dont make a wand wielding heavy armor rogue/x) will be more forgiving than raiding, so let's finish this discussion and go back to off-tanking.
It really falls with the devs to create PvE scenarios that an off-tank is needed, to endure the damage, while also effectivelly returning to other duties, like dealing good dmg or supporting. It falls to the devs to create scenarios where more than 1 tank is needed, real tanks and scenarios, many scenarios that the off-tanks can bring in flavour. Meaningful. Different encounters should require an off-tank dps, different encounters for an off-tank support.
And in the open world it is up to the groups to find the best way to be effective at different tasks.
In L2 for example many times we would use our bard as the tank and our bases as the damage dealers. The bard would kite and provide support buffs and there would be NO NEED for a healer for that day.
Other times we'd go with melee AoE settup and drain-health buffs. Another example that the tank and healer could take a day off.
Other times we would raid, in which case my melee fighter would be just a bodyguard incase of PvP. The mages and archers would kill the RB faster than me.
Lets say I am a mage, and I take mage as my secondary. Each of my augments from my secondary are going to add damage to my abilities. Those abilities that I don't add augments to are still going to be damaging abilities, and will cost me fewer skill points.
Now, if I take cleric for a primary and still mage secondary, my abilities that I start off with are not damaging abilities (mostly). This means that if my mage augments are going to turn them in to abilities that are comparable to my mage/mage, the augments from my mage secondary need to be significantly better. They need to change my cleric abilities from healing or protection abilities over to DPS, and then ALSO need to boost that damage to match that of an ability that is dealing damage as it's base, and gaining damage as it's augment.
I know you can see how this isn't reasonable.
Even for a clerics abilities that do deal damage already, that damage will be less than half as much as a mages base damage (as is generally standard). In order to turn this cleric/mage in to a DPS class, that augment would need to add a ridiculous amount of damage to the ability.
What this would also then mean is that we would have clerics that take all the cleric heals (which they get for cheap), and then take a few cleric damage abilities, and augment the damage abilities with mage augments. It would mean we have clerics fully able to heal, that are able to dish out fairly substantial amounts of damage.
What you are talking about here is what you want to see, not what is reasonable or probable in Ashes - because what you are talking about is neither reasonable nor probable in Ashes.
Indeed.
It is also worth pointing out, Intrepid have basically said that players will be able to build near worthless characters - basically a broken character.
It is entirely possible (probable, I would say), that the heavy armor wearing mage with the two handed sword really can't do anything. Can't solo, won't be bought along on groups, dies easily in PvP.
George_Black: "So you are saying that -even according to your theory- the dot and debuff based class (damage over tiiiiiimeeee....) will have high enough DPS, in order to compete with a mage?"
They would probably be filling a mix of roles. Even Cleric/Cleric is designed to be a mix of Damage and Healing in Ashes of Creation. Similar to D&D and Pathfinder.
"Clerics keep their team in the fight by bolstering their combat abilities and cursing their enemies. Far from simply supporting their allies through healing, a Cleric is also capable of wielding destructive force in the face of danger."
Even a DPS Cleric would probably be doing some group healing in an 8-person group - especially AoEs. But, those healing Active Skills would also have some DPS augments on them.
In Ashes, a DPS Cleric doesn't have to be primarily devoted to heals if there are multiple x/Clerics and x/Bards in the group. The encounter will still be designed expecting Rank 3+ Cleric Active Skills. But, the DPS Cleric will still be using Rank 3+ Active Skills.
Ashes is being designed with significant differences from previous MMORPGs. Class design is one of those areas with key differences.
Secondary Archetypes allow people to not have to conform to absolute roles.
"Again, the purpose of Secondary Archetypes and the augment system is to blur the line a little bit with the class roles. So, while we're following a traditional Trinity role class system in class roles, we are utilizing the Secondary augment system to move the dial a little bit in one direction with the augments."
---Steven
We have our 8 Base Archetypes, and the Trinity is a pretty strong influence with regards to the 8 Base Classes. However, the area in which we actually begin to play with that line between the Trinity is in the Secondary Classes that you can pick. That's where we begin to blend those spaces and allow people a little bit of influence over their role and whether or not they fit perfectly within a particular category within the Trinity.
---Steven
I'm not aware of anyone posting here saying, "I will build my character however I want and beat the game, as if I play a single-player, like Dark Souls."
A DPS Cleric/Mage will synergize their Active Skills and augments with the Active Skills and augments of the other players in the group. And vice versa.
There's a plethora of ways for an 8-person group to adjust to having a DPS Cleric and still complete the encounter(s).
It's highly unlikely that every Cleric/x in a raid is going to be a DPS Cleric, but even that can accommodated.
The base spells are going to be stronger than the augments to those base spells.
If you have a heal and then add a damage component to it via augment, it is still primarily a heal.
Expect people to still be synergizing their Active Skills and augments with their allies.
PC rivals will basically be treated like NPC adds.
Unecessary.
You'll just need to learn to play to each classes strengths and weaknesses.
I can't wait for them to show how abilities work and such, plus some of the balance xD. Literally anything is possible since we know nothing. In certain instances Cleric/rogue might be able to out dmg certain dps. Perhaps they build in a certain way having few more defined and augmented skills over having a bunch. Those skills cause aoe Dps dots with special effects which also weaken enemies. So in large groups they have slightly more dmg potential over a rogue/rogue that might only focus on single target dmg.
Saying that anything is impossible without knowing how things work is kind of pointless. I could be a cabalist in rift and out dmg everyone in the arena by x10. And that was a cleric class lmao.
That is the fun of it and why people are like its boring if your only tank can be one thing and you need to use that in that way with certain items and skills to be effective etc. People want to build cool fun stuff, and then some people only have the mind set of the less than 1% of content and aren't thinking of the whole game in general. We have no clue till more information is out on the game so we should just be open to more cases, for all we know a very good summoner tank might be able to tank most the content in the game in the right party.
In an attempt to stay on-topic to the main question, I'll just answer the OP directly with my thoughts:
An off-tank is a role that supports the main tank in several ways.
I define a main tank as the role of protecting the rest of the party from becoming the target of the primary objective. This is generally achieved by having a toolset that includes the most superior forms of damage mitigation attainable as well as high levels of near-constant damage mitigation coupled with the most superior forms of threat generation and threat maintenance.
An off-tank is not a second main tank. An off-tank has a toolset that allows them to fill several roles that, when taken individually are not the best in slot, but when taken as a total toolset are capable of full-filling their role better than anyone else.
Necessary roles/attributes of an off-tank (in my opinion!):
Superb burst duration damage mitigation. Not the best necessarily, and definitely not indefinitely; however, an off-tank must be capable of surviving long enough for a main tank to re-establish the hate control of the primary objective if it has been lost (intentionally or unintentionally) or to recover from a scenario where they would otherwise die. Abilities are usually tied to this in some way.
This ties into the second role/attribute of an off-tank which is the ability to peel hate off of other party members, or even the main tank through a combination of mechanics. For example: riding the hate line generated by DPS and then using a threat generation ability. Another way would be to ride the hate line through healing the main tank or party members and then using a threat generation ability. The key here is that they need to be able to ride a hate line through a combination of actions outside of their threat generation ability(s)... or perhaps in combination with even a lesser hate generation ability - but not all! If an off-tank goes all out with all abilities and role toolset components, they should be able to pull hate off of a main tank because with everything else being equal, the main tank should be losing hate generation through the concept of hate decay*.
The third key component to being an off-tank is the ability to manage a secondary objective for a brief duration of time. In this case, a brief duration could be 30seconds to several minutes (it all depends on the type of off-tank and role they need to fill). Either an expected or unexpected situation, this could be a spawn or trigger of an additional target from a main objective, an add (additional mob) from proximity aggro range, or the management of multiple additional targets that would otherwise overwhelm the party. Often the off-tank would need assistance with this role from either an off-healer, dps, or CC support of some kind - on harder content perhaps even 2 or 3 of these supports.
The final role of an off-tank is to be able to provide meaningful impact to the party without outshining a specialist in that role. This means that an off-tank should be able to do some version of at least one of the following as well as full-filling the above: provide solid dps (but not as much as a specialist), provide solid healing (but not as much as a specialist), provide solid cc (but not as much as a specialist), provide solid party buffs (but not as much as a specialist).
So, could 2 or 3 off-tanks in a party be able to make up for the lack of a main tank? Sure, in some situations like regular partying or perhaps specific dungeons/group content. But that requires superb teamwork, communication, and a great grasp of your class/job's abilities.
Should 2-3 off-tanks be able to tank a raid boss? I would argue that their toolset shouldn't allow the rest of the party to maximize their long term hate line ride and that their damage mitigation shouldn't be good enough to be able to handle a significant enough duration of time to make it work regularly. Raids are where in most games you'd have at least 2 main tanks in a tank focused party that is specifically designed to maximize the main tanks survivability. Off-tanks are usually relegated to a second party built around adds/phase control to allow the rest of the raid to focus on the primary objective.
*hate decay is the idea that all actions that do not generate hate will instead diminish hate. Examples are a mob damaging a character, cc'ing a character, removing a buff, as well as the character standing idle and not attacking or causing a form of threat towards the target etc.
It's possible that a summoner/tank and tank/summoner have the same passive skill options (max HP, HP Regen, DMG mitigation, etc)
You might enjoy this read
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/51718/archetype-roles-i-swear-im-not-crazy/p1
We beat the hell out of this topic a few months back...