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Weapon types that feel misplaced. Wands and Potion Launchers.

SqueezySqueezy Member, Alpha Two
TLDR: Wands seem misplaced in the world of Ashes of Creation because there are no links between Tolkien-Like fantasy and "Harry Potter Style" wands. Please read the whole post for a more sound argument and let me know how you feel about wands in Ashes.

I was watching the Unreal Engine 5 reveal which looked really promising overall. I'm very happy with the new lighting systems and how many potential textures have. I also appreciated the locomotion improvements which made the game feel more immersive, even if I was just watching.

I also noticed Steven's wand. I know that there are a lot of weapon types coming up in Ashes of Creation, which I think overall is great. However, the wand seemed misplaced with the rest of the gorgeous snowy biome. So I took a look at all of the potential weapon types that Ashes of Creation will have.

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Maybe it's just my point of view, but hear me out. Ashes seem to follow a classic, Tolkien-Like, fantasy world. Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Orcs. Obviously, things aren't one for one because this isn't a LOTR IP, but from the weapon list here, potion launchers and wands feel misplaced. Now I can't make a REALLY make a good argument on why wands feel wrong, it's more of a feeling, but I will try my best.

I won't focus on the potion launcher very much because the Intrepid Team is tentative about putting it into the game, and rightfully so.

Wands, on the other hand, we have all seen in Alpha 1 and of course in the Unreal Engine 5 migration reveal.
In fantasy, wands appear very rarely. Most famously there is of course the Harry Potter series which is completely separate from standard high fantasy. Historically, a quick search says that the first mention of wands was in Homer's Odyssey and Illiad. Some gods used them as well as a witch named Cerce who turned Odysseus's men into pigs. There was also some writing of wand usage in old grimoires like The Oathbound Book of Honorius and The Key of Solomon.

In more modern and pop culture we see several stories with wands in them:
C.S Lewis' The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe
MGM's - The Wizard of Oz
Disney's - Pinnochio
Disney's - Cinderella
Disney's - Sleeping Beauty
Blizzard's - World of Warcraft, (Magic Casters, Autofire Weapon)

Now I know, if World of Warcraft did it, why shouldn't Ashes of Creation. I think the reason the wand seems so much more immersion breaking in Ashes is that it is used as an active weapon unlike World of Warcraft where it's just ur right-click, ranged attack. Usually, you would see, Mages, Warlocks, and Priests stand around with their staffs, swords, daggers, books, and orbs and look very very cool. So when Steven is swinging his wand around shooting spells at the flower monsters, it looks a lot more like a Harry Potter game than fantasy or high fantasy.

There just isn't a lot of references in movies, art, and books that link Tolkien-Like fantasy worlds with wands. Maybe if Gandalf had a wand instead of a staff I wouldn't want to write this post, but let me know what you guys think. Am I the only one who thinks that the wands seem like they fit with the other weapons or is it just me? Let me know!
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Comments

  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2022
    If it helps, potion launchers were in apocalypse, but shouldn't be in the game as it was back then. They were pretty busted.

    Edit (clarification): potion launchers won't be in the game like they were in APOC, but we have heard they could be used in naval warfare in leu of black powder weapons like cannons.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2022
    Verra lore is whatever Steven wants it to be.
    Steven is not trying to make Verra exactly like Tolkien or Harry Potter.
    D&D has wands. Pathfinder has wands. He's basing Verra off of his home brew Pathfinder game.
    And then, Steven is adding what he wants to create his own world.

    I'm not aware of Tolkien or Harry Potter having Warforged, but Eberron has them because that's what the creator of Eberron chose to add to his game world.
    Steven has chosen to add potion launchers, so....that's what fits in Verra lore.
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    Well if tolken staffs are big magic-crystal infused catalysts that let you focus and control magic better, what's wrong with a smaller, hand-held version that is easier to walk around with? Maybe Staves can help with powerful, slow magic and wands are for finesse and precision? We don't know yet but I can completely see how they could be used as an alternative to a Staff or Arcane Orb.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    I don't get why wants would be a problem, seems to me the OP has a WoW or nothing mindset in relation to them.

    Other games use wands as well, it's fine.
  • BoanergeseBoanergese Member, Alpha Two
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  • SqueezySqueezy Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    I don't get why wants would be a problem, seems to me the OP has a WoW or nothing mindset in relation to them.

    Other games use wands as well, it's fine.

    Not at all, I don't want another WoW. I was just making an example of a fantasy game. I want Ashes to be Ashes, and I have a lot of trust in what Steven and the rest of Intrepid are making. I'm just saying wands feel out of place in a high fantasy setting. Could just be me idk.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Squeezy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I don't get why wants would be a problem, seems to me the OP has a WoW or nothing mindset in relation to them.

    Other games use wands as well, it's fine.

    Not at all, I don't want another WoW. I was just making an example of a fantasy game. I want Ashes to be Ashes, and I have a lot of trust in what Steven and the rest of Intrepid are making. I'm just saying wands feel out of place in a high fantasy setting. Could just be me idk.

    Coming from a decade of an MMO that has wands as a mage weapon (EQ2), and having played an online ARPG for about 5 years now that also uses wands (Path of Exile), I see no issue with wands at all.
  • Honestly I'm kind of mad they don't have guns and cannons but hey, I do on the other hand really love the Tolkein style they got going.

    i would say that the wand thing looks kinda cringe. I feel like WoW Vanilla did a better job.

    I don't have any problem with the potion launches, I actually like to see inovation like that.

    I hope they will also add stuff like glavies, chakrams, cleavers, etc too.

  • CawwCaww Member, Alpha Two
    Wands are just short Staffs.... if that helps
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Caww wrote: »
    Wands are just short Staffs.... if that helps

    It's not the size of the staff
    It's how you use it
  • I have to say I really love the fact they have 1h and 2h staffs.

    I'm not a mage at all but I really like the fact they're going to let us go Gandalf style B)
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited January 2022
    Wands look weird, the attacks look too fast and annoying. The characters using them look unimpressive.
    They do seem out of place.

    Scepters and different hand waves/motions for attacking would be better instead.
  • BoanergeseBoanergese Member, Alpha Two
    Look, my black wand is shooting blue and red magical spells.

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  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Kinda surprised Harry Potter didn't get brought up as an example of wands in pop culture. It's also where we have a good example of light, medium and heavy wand attacks in cinematography. You can make wands a little more technical than what we saw in Alpha 1.
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  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Wands are pretty common in Dungeons and Dragons, going back to the very beginning in the 70s when the original books were published. Harry Potter didn't invent the idea of them. If you want an example of a very common Tolkienish RPG experience that embraces wands for mages, look no further than D&D.

    The idea of wands being associated with the occult and magic goes all the way back to the 13th century. Magical wands begin to appear in fictional stories in the 18th century. The concept predates all of the OP's examples by centuries.

    I think this is being viewed through an extremely narrow viewpoint. It doesn't seem as weird if you become familiar with more fantasy culture and role-playing games than movies and MMOs from the last 20 years.
     
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  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    While I agree with all your points, I wasn't saying hp invented wands in pop culture. I was only pointing out it was weird it didn't come out as an example in pop culture despite it being even more pop and modern than some of the other examples they listed.
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  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2022
    JustVine wrote: »
    While I agree with all your points, I wasn't saying hp invented wands in pop culture. I was only pointing out it was weird it didn't come out as an example in pop culture despite it being even more pop and modern than some of the other examples they listed.

    Maybe because it was mentioned in the first sentence of the OP and it would be redundant to mention it again? (Just guessing, I'm not a mind reader. ;))

    ETA: Also, my post was a response to the OP, not anyone else in the thread.
     
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  • SqueezySqueezy Member, Alpha Two
    JustVine wrote: »
    Kinda surprised Harry Potter didn't get brought up as an example of wands in pop culture. It's also where we have a good example of light, medium and heavy wand attacks in cinematography. You can make wands a little more technical than what we saw in Alpha 1.

    I mentioned it in the paragraph above. Didn't want to mention it twice.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited January 2022
    Atama wrote: »
    I think this is being viewed through an extremely narrow viewpoint. It doesn't seem as weird if you become familiar with more fantasy culture and role-playing games than movies and MMOs from the last 20 years.

    This is essentially my take on it as well. You just worded it significantly better than I could have.
  • pyrealpyreal Member, Warrior of Old, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2022
    Its a true you don't see a lot of Wands in Fantasy games. THe first MMO I played was Asheron's Call and they had Wands and Staffs that were not only required to cast but also could be activated if they had a spell.

    edi: https://asheron.fandom.com/wiki/White_Virindi_Wand
  • VoidwalkersVoidwalkers Member
    edited January 2022
    I've always had the impression that a staff is just a 2-handed superwand that can double as a melee weapon.

    Wand - you point it at things, shoot things, things die.
    Staff - you raise it, chant some spells, point it at things, shoot things, things die.
    Also staff - you are Gandalf the Grey wizard, you are facing a balrog. Somehow you believe meleeing it with your staff is the best idea. You both fall.

    Jokes aside, in general in most fantasies wands & staves are treated as a tool to focus a mage's power, and the general impression seems to be wands are often used to cast small but quick spells, while staves are often seen when a mage's casting some high-power aoe epic spells.

    So if I'm implementing the staves & wands in a game, my take would be either have them come with different sets of weapon-skills (like GW2), or have them act as amplifiers for different spells - wands amplify the shorter-cast, lower power spells, while staves would amplify the longer-cast, high power or aoe spells. Or may be just have wands focus on reducing cast time of all spells, while staves focus on increasing raw damage.

    Not sure how Intrepid's gonna implement them in Ashes, but at least please make wands & staves play differently.
    The last thing I'd like to see are stat-sticks like the staves/wands in wow.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    I used a Wand in Guild Wars, and it never felt out of place. I don't see the problem.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • OrymOrym Member, Alpha Two
    Yeah wands are pathetic looking lol
    Hopefully there will be some nice options for healers/casters or whichever class would use it.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Orym wrote: »
    Yeah wands are pathetic looking lol
    Hopefully there will be some nice options for healers/casters or whichever class would use it.

    All classes use all weapons. Clerics and Mages can also use swords, or axes, or bows.

    There are other ranged magical weapons. Books, orbs, and scepters. If you don't like the look of wands, use one of those.

    I tried a book in Alpha 1 and it was extremely slow and awkward, so I went back to my wand as my preferred ranged weapon. The animations were a bit Harry Potter-ish, when animations are redone hopefully they'll improve on it.

    I never got a chance to try an orb and I never even saw a scepter, so I don't know what they were like.
     
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  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yeah I wish they gave the book a better casting speed in A-1. I really preffered it a lot more over the wand, but they didn't even give it better over all damage! It was just objectively worse. Book animation was great. It's one of the things I am looking forward to in A-2
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  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    JustVine wrote: »
    Yeah I wish they gave the book a better casting speed in A-1. I really preffered it a lot more over the wand, but they didn't even give it better over all damage! It was just objectively worse. Book animation was great. It's one of the things I am looking forward to in A-2

    Yeah it looked good. I really liked the page movement. But it was a garbage weapon. :(
     
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  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2022
    JustVine wrote: »
    Kinda surprised Harry Potter didn't get brought up as an example of wands in pop culture. It's also where we have a good example of light, medium and heavy wand attacks in cinematography. You can make wands a little more technical than what we saw in Alpha 1.

    I was debating whether I should make a thread specifically addressing the wand's rigging.
    It's being wielded like a tennis racket.
    It needs to be wielded like a badminton racket. (it's all in the wrist)

    The Harry Potter movies put a lot of thought and talent into how wand combat should look and it paid off.
    I think it's at least good source material.
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  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm kinda surprised it wasn't their immediate instinct to go to that material given how much more realistic wand duels feel in those movies. Especially when they are going for a proc combo style of weapon combat.
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  • BoanergeseBoanergese Member, Alpha Two
    maouw wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    Kinda surprised Harry Potter didn't get brought up as an example of wands in pop culture. It's also where we have a good example of light, medium and heavy wand attacks in cinematography. You can make wands a little more technical than what we saw in Alpha 1.

    I was debating whether I should make a thread specifically addressing the wand's rigging.
    It's being wielded like a tennis racket.
    It needs to be wielded like a badminton racket. (it's all in the wrist)

    The Harry Potter movies put a lot of thought and talent into how wand combat should look and it paid off.
    I think it's at least good source material.

    Yes, but you also had to clearly enunciate your words as you were casting the spell. It wasn't simply the flick and swoosh motion.
  • EloElo Member, Alpha Two
    I remember in D&D and Pathfinder, because wands had charges, they were most often saved for those special occasions "when needed", rather than being a primary weapon.
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