Yay/Nay: Whaling in Naval Content?

For the record, I'm *WAY* against whaling in *real life*. It may have fit humanity in the past, but it's an out-dated and un-needed practice in the modern world. Perhaps an exception for some indigenous tribes - but only because they literally use so much of a whale.

In the game, though?

I think it could fit, for the time-period/technological level of Verra. With resettlement, we're not really looking at a highly-industrialized civilization, and the amount of whaling Verra's to-be population would do would realistically be sustainable, and probably culturally appropriate. Whale blubber and caviar sound like appropriate crafting ingredients for things like food processing/crafting. Maybe I'm wrong, though....

Maybe we could just have whale-like creatures and call them something else? Would it be sending the wrong message?

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JustVine

India on the other hand recognizes whales and dolphins as people due to their intelligence levels. Not just because 'its been illegal to hunt them all their lives.'

We generally, as a species, feel ok killing other intelligent species as a means of survival. I personally dislike games where I have to kill intelligent things that aren't a threat to myself or my community. At the same time I can stomach games with huge populations of apex, because realistically speaking too many apex collapse their own population.

Whales generally help fishing, not inhibit. They are as beneficial to marine ecology as wolves are to terrestrial. The culture among Japanese fisheries is a false tribal aggression as they feel whales and dolphins compete for their fish.

So yeah, I have a bunch of reasons why I wouldn't be ok with attacking a whale for 'fun'. It'd be weird if they attack first, they just don't tend to in the wild. And even if they did, sharks and sea monsters have way more avenues for making them interesting to fight.

I could get behind a full pod adventuring party of whales trying to sack boats for the loot though. Whales/dolphins are thematically the closest thing in water to having bard abilities and bubble shaping summons. Whaling individual whales though... no thanks. It's like murdering a puppy to me, except its a multi-ton puppy that has the intelligence of a teenager.

Bring on the giant squid, pleisiosaurs, and icythiosaurs baby.

JustVine

If the squid are attacking the ship it is the same to me as a dragon or whale attacking my ship. Krakens attacking your ship is just a trope I am used to. You as usual missed a lot of nuance.

As someone who studied extensively to become a marine biologist you are just flatly wrong irt the squid being more social than literal podding organisms... They dont generally coordinate hunts or coordinate defenses unlike the large majority of dolphins and whale species. The most you'll get is territory disputes (something many animals of various intelligence exhibit.)

Your notes about counting and problem solving are either reffering to octopuses or cuttlefish btw which is not the same as a giant squid. If you have the study on hand for giant squid behavior and intelligence please do forward that to me. That would be a breakthrough read. You might be getting the communication capacity of squid confused with cuttlefish and octopuses, which as a whole are about as solitary as a generality as it gets. There are exceptions, such as the Humboldt squid (who's communication we understand very little about) but the exceptions are about as prevalent as the solitariness of whales. Meanwhile bottlenose dolphins and orcas have literal subcultures for different bubble blowing techniques and hunting strategies.

Also... did you just literally attack Indian culture as a whole based off some ignorant people? You might wanna check introspectively why you felt the need to do that. I know you like arguing with me but there is no need to drag the good people of India into your attempts to pick at my arguments.

Samson1

I'm all for killing anything and everything. It's a frickin' video game.

JustVine

Samson wrote: »

I'm all for killing anything and everything. It's a frickin' video game.

I like playing a bit more seriously when it comes to morality considerations in video games. It's part of the fun for me. But I can respect your perspective of wanting to just turn off your brain and mindlessly hit some pixels.

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

If the squid are attacking the ship it is the same to me as a dragon or whale attacking my ship. Krakens attacking your ship is just a trope I am used to. You as usual missed a lot of nuance.

Squid don't attack ships.

Basically, what I take from what you are saying is that you are OK with attacking and killing one intelligent sea creature, because you are used to see it happening in fiction - yet you are not OK with fiction depicting the attack of another intelligent sea creature.

If that is incorrect, all you need to post in a reply is which part of it is incorrect.

While it is true that both cuttlefish and octopi are smarter than squid, it is not by much, and my comments were specific to squid.

All of them.

Not giant squid - there isn't any kind of research body on them as they were only first observed in the wild in 2004. However, since we are talkingabout all whales, I see no reason why we can't talk a out all squid.

In fact, since you wanted to lump dolphins in with whales and talk about cetaceans as a whole, I see no reason why I couldn't have talked about all cepholopods as a whole. I didn't, I was only talking about squid - but you are the one that wants to expand the groups we are talking about.

Seemingly, you want to either expand or shrink as you see fit, in fact. We are talking about whales, you want to include dolphins to further your point. Then we talk about the comparison to squid (all squid being analogous to all whales), and rather than expanding the group as you did with whales by adding dolphins, you want to shrink it.

I'm not sure how me pointing out a fact about India right now is me attacking their whole culture (which in itself is an ignorant statement). Likewise, you pointing out that India gave cetaceans the status of nun-human person is not the culture as a whole. In fact, the decision to do so only came about because various groups in India were building parks to display dolphin shows, and this was the easiest way to prevent that happening - and thus gain popularity for the government.

Like it or not, your comment about the status they granted whales and dolphins was a reflection of a government decision, not "Indian culture" (I use "" because of the ridiculousness of trying to lump all of the hundreds of different cultures in India in to "Indian culture). As such, I replied by pointing out another decision of the Indian government

Perhaps I should point out that the US considered companies to have basic human rights - which I assume means you are against economically disabling nodes in game?

JustVine

How did that line go. I'm not judging merely pointing out there is a guy in the back of an imax theatre randomly shouting all indians believe cow dung cures covid when the narrator briefly talks about animal rights legislation as part of a whaling documentary. Did I get that right?

JustVine

Noaani wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

If the squid are attacking the ship it is the same to me as a dragon or whale attacking my ship. Krakens attacking your ship is just a trope I am used to. You as usual missed a lot of nuance.

Basically, what I take from what you are saying is that you are OK with attacking and killing one intelligent sea creature, because you are used to see it happening in fiction - yet you are not OK with fiction depicting the attack of another intelligent sea creature.

If that is incorrect, all you need to post in a reply is which part of it is incorrect.

'So yeah, I have a bunch of reasons why I wouldn't be ok with attacking a whale for 'fun'. It'd be weird if they attack first, they just don't tend to in the wild. And even if they did, sharks and sea monsters have way more avenues for making them interesting to fight.

I could get behind a full pod adventuring party of whales trying to sack boats for the loot though. Whales/dolphins are thematically the closest thing in water to having bard abilities and bubble shaping summons. Whaling individual whales though... no thanks. '

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

How did that line go. I'm not judging merely pointing out there is a guy in the back of an imax theatre randomly shouting all indians believe cow dung cures covid when the narrator briefly talks about animal rights legislation as part of a whaling documentary. Did I get that right?

Except I never said they all did, what is it with people fabricating arguments others make right now?

I said their government holds that specific line. I assume you don't agree with your government on every issue. In fact, I even pointed out that the government in question wass censuring people that spoke out against it - which to anyone thinking logically would mean that I am outright saying that not all Indians believe it. If all Indians believed it, the government would have nothing to censure, would they?

Stop fabricating arguments and then debating against them. It makes you look stupid.

Boanergese

What did we learn from the Simpsons when you're too friendly with dolphins?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOnNBOb8uQM

JustVine

Modhi wasn't in power in 2013.

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

If the squid are attacking the ship it is the same to me as a dragon or whale attacking my ship. Krakens attacking your ship is just a trope I am used to. You as usual missed a lot of nuance.

Basically, what I take from what you are saying is that you are OK with attacking and killing one intelligent sea creature, because you are used to see it happening in fiction - yet you are not OK with fiction depicting the attack of another intelligent sea creature.

If that is incorrect, all you need to post in a reply is which part of it is incorrect.

'So yeah, I have a bunch of reasons why I wouldn't be ok with attacking a whale for 'fun'. It'd be weird if they attack first, they just don't tend to in the wild. And even if they did, sharks and sea monsters have way more avenues for making them interesting to fight.

I could get behind a full pod adventuring party of whales trying to sack boats for the loot though. Whales/dolphins are thematically the closest thing in water to having bard abilities and bubble shaping summons. Whaling individual whales though... no thanks. '

You cut out the part about being quite keen on killing another intelligent, harmless sea creature. Have you changed your mind here, or are you just trying to ignore it for now?

If your position is that you are happy with players fighting back against whale aggression, cool. Not how I would want to see whales represented in a game, but cool.

If your position is that you are against players attacking non-aggressive semi-intelligent creatures, cool. I disagree, but your position would be coherent.

If your position is that you are against players attacking whales, but all for them attacking squid and other animals that display well above average intelligence for animals, that is where I have questions (such as those above).

McMackMuck

I wouldn't scope creep the amount of work that Intrepid already have on their plate.

As a post release addition of content then reworking more detail into ships vs. sea monsters seems like an interesting avenue to explore. I would look at what percentage of the population wants it though, because land based improvements may impact on a greater portion of the player base.

Noaani

I agree on wanting to avoid scope creep.

However, if the game is to have a naval component, it needs to have naval content. I would consider adding in basic activities to do on the ocean (hunting whales for resources is fairly basic) to be basic naval content, and so not subject to that scope creep issue.

However, I would consider adding in various types of individualized sea monsters to potentially fall in to the category of scope creep, so I would be all for them being added at a later date - as long ass there is basic naval content at launch (or no naval content or ships at launch, with it all to be added later).

Ironhope

McMackMuck wrote: »

I would look at what percentage of the population wants it though, because land based improvements may impact on a greater portion of the player base.

I mean, a large part of the population might not be particularly on board with naval content because they don't realize how great it can be.

If the artist (Intrepid) has a vision and passion for naval content I think that, regardless of what the masses vote, they should pursue that calling.

At the end of the day one needs to remember that it was the unwashed masses of gamers, not corporate greed alone, which got mmo-rpgs in the bad state they're today. It was the masses asking for so much convenience in the first place.

daveywavey

Ironhope wrote: »

I mean, a large part of the population might not be particularly on board with naval content because they don't realize how great it can be.

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

Modhi wasn't in power in 2013.

Point to where I said it was the same government.

Oh, you can't, because I didn't say it and you are arguing against ghosts again.

CROW3

Well this thread turned in it’s side. Yes on whaling, the opponents can form <Greenpeace>. Boom. More siege content.

Noaani

CROW3 wrote: »

Well this thread turned in it’s side. Yes on whaling, the opponents can form <Greenpeace>. Boom. More siege content.

Sounds good to me.

Radiglaz

Yay for sure!

Geophysical Ninja

Noaani wrote: »

Geophysical Ninja wrote: »

You might as well ask if you can just go dolphin hunting. Whaling is symbolic of a horrible tendency of humanity to disregard the ecological impact of our decisions. Other than in fiction where it is a critical plot point, promoting it in any way should be avoided. I'm not saying to avoid fishing or deep sea fishing. I'm saying why whales?

That is entirely missing the point.

Irony.

Noaani wrote: »

We all (other than Japan and Norway) consider whaling to be bad because it has been illegal for most of our lives.

It has been illegal for most of our lives because we hunted most whale species down to numbers that were too low.

The idea wasn't to ban whaling, it was to discourage hunting any endangered species. Attributing an emption to just whales is borderline hypocritical.

Please, don't speak for all of us. Laws generally reflect the morals of society; morals are not based on the laws.

I think that you need to read up on whaling as an industry, and why different groups no longer support it. You are painting with a very broad brush here.

Regarding "emption" and "hypocritical." I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. Are you trying to suggest that I purchase whales? This is just an odd sentence.

Noaani wrote: »

If you are against whaling in a game, then you should be against hunting any form of lion, tiger, bear, monkey or tuna. Just as whales have some species that are endangered (not all whales are endangered), each of these groups also has members that are endangered.

This thread was literally about whaling. I commented on whaling. Start a thread about tigers (perhaps "Should Killing Tigers and Making Them into Ineffective Medicine be in the Game?", and I will probably say something similar (i.e., we can do better in a fantasy world than simply copy animals that humans poach in a lazy way).

I didn't use the example of tuna, but my position should be clear.

Noaani wrote: »

I mean, we already know we have horses, mules, foxes and turtles as mounts - but we also have more fantastical mounts like the bonestrider.

Half of those are domesticated animals, and, as you point out, are all mounts. This thread is about making a significant portion of (basically light naval combat) content centered around what many people would call one of the worst practices of humanity in modern times.

I guess a lot of people would rather kill a whale than a sea dragon or a Mosasaurus. I think that's sad.

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