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Node Board: Shows your name, guild, society, religion and property.

NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
edited January 2022 in General Discussion
I came across this bit in a dev stream from Oct. 2020, which basically boils down to this from the wiki:
Players can interact with the node board to get a list of citizens of the node.
  • Clicking on a citizen will reveal information about their guild, society, religion, and property ownership.
As Steven started listing the readily available info on the list, I just started going "no, no, no" in my head. Having my character name on the list is completely fine. Having the guild I am in? Ok, fine, it is shown over my head anyway probably. But society, religion and which property type I own? Hell no, that is none of ya'lls business unless I want to share it, or you actively follow me and observe me play.

I am also strongly against character inspection being a thing, in case you were wondering :)

The only nod towards that oversharing of information I'll give is to allow the Mayor of the node anonymous lists of how many citizens are members of which religions and societies and such, and how many houses, apartments, freeholds there are. This is useful in meeting the demands of citizens and makes sense for good gameplay and stewardship of the node. If Intrepid is dead set on oversharing info, please only let the mayor see it.

Any thoughts on this node board system?
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    tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Interesting questions you raise, @Nerror

    If I was interested in progressing within a religion, getting access to the titles and benefits that could accrue to me, I would be wanting to settle in a Divine node with a large number of adherents to my religion. This would allow us to convince the mayor to build the necessary religious shrines needed to advance ourselves. Under this circumstance, it would be useful to me to know the religions. It would also be useful to me to know who adheres to my religion to work with them.

    I suppose that a similar point might be made about the other societies (bounty hunters, merchants, crafters, and whatever else we end up with).

    Someone who just joined a guild might like to know which node has a lot of potential guildmates. Of course, why wouldn't she or he be able to find that out from the guild itself? On the other hand, if there were some guilds which someone wanted to avoid, knowing guild affiliations would help you avoid that node.

    In a Scientific node, where mayors are chosen by elections, having information about various affiliations of the electorate would be useful to well organized and smart candidates. If the combined membership of religion A, society 2 and guild x was sufficient to get you elected, then you know who to convince/bribe to vote for you!

    While I respect your desire for privacy, I think knowing that information would add to the game.
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    This kind of reminds me of the guild professions thread. @Nerror i think you and I are on the same page.

    Fine with the node board. But I’d like some configuration on what can be shown for my character. This board is basically a version of the /who command in WoW.
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    Religion is not something someone hides and so that info can be made available via inspection.
    Society information being available is encroaching player privacy.
    Information about property ownership is none of anyone's business except that players.
    "Suffer in silence"
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I never understood the concept of privacy in an MMO.

    In the same way that if you create an account and log in you are consenting to PvP, if you create an account and log in you are making the above information about your character available to all.

    Assuming that is how Intrepid want it, you can't argue one without agreeing that arguing the other is a valid argument.

    As to property, that is potentially the most important thing to have on a central community noticeboard. If you place a player stall on your freehold, people need to know how to find it.

    An argument could be made that your property location is only shown if you are listing items from your freehold - but then the above point still holds true.
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2022
    Good point about having that info available to mayoral candidates @tautau .

    I'll revise my preference to wanting anonymous overviews of the religions, societies and property type numbers on the node boards available to everyone. Perhaps some nice pie charts for that matter. It would also make sense to show the top 3 or 5 guilds in terms of citizenship numbers in the node.

    I think that type of information is actually useful to everybody. New players who want to find a guild to join, old players trying to find a node to relocate to, mayors and candidates, and even for enemies to know which guilds to talk to, to perhaps sow some dissent in the node in preparation for a node war/siege.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Assuming that is how Intrepid want it

    That's the key point, yeah. I want them to change the direction on privacy on this one, so I am not forced to consent to giving it up (to other players) when I log into the game.

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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Nerror wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Assuming that is how Intrepid want it

    That's the key point, yeah. I want them to change the direction on privacy on this one, so I am not forced to consent to giving it up (to other players) when I log into the game.

    Why?

    What do you lose by me being able to see what social organization you belong to?

    And don't just say privacy - we are talking about information about your character, not about you. You are asking Intrepid to change the game, you need to give them a reason as to why this would make the game better.
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2022
    Bringing it up to a more general level, wanting privacy doesn't require an explanation or justification. This goes for character info as well. Privacy needs to be the default.

    Concessions to privacy have to be made for good gameplay mechanics, like showing name and guild tag of players. Showing a player's social organization, however, gives people knowledge of their potential augments.

    Here Steven and Jeff are talking about how letting players inspect other players leads to toxic behaviour, and why they aren't a fan of it. Starts at 1:08:17.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GySx-cU6Js&t=4097s

    The question should never be "why wouldn't they show that info?". It should always be, "Is there a good gameplay reason that info has to be shown?"

    There is absolutely no good reason for letting random players see your specific social organization or religion on your character, whether it's on a node board or through inspection. If they really want to know they can ask in node or guild chat for example. The anonymous aggregate info of all citizens on the node board does make sense, however.
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    tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Aren't some of the augments going to be known by glow on weapons and armor, with different colors indicating different types of augments? Of course, that does not mean that ALL augments will be visually revealed.
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    SylvanarSylvanar Member
    edited January 2022
    Noaani wrote: »
    What do you lose by me being able to see what social organization you belong to?

    Social organization being shown would make targeting a particular group easier. Lets say grp A wants to target grp B who are unaware of their nefarious schemes. At least members of grp A need to work for the info regarding the identity of members of grp B beyond hovering the mouse on people before enacting anything.

    If this info is as pointless as you claim them to be, then what is the point of even making them available?
    Nerror wrote: »
    The question should never be "why wouldn't they show that info?". It should always be, "Is there a good gameplay reason that info has to be shown?"
    This about sums it up.
    "Suffer in silence"
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    tautau wrote: »
    Aren't some of the augments going to be known by glow on weapons and armor, with different colors indicating different types of augments? Of course, that does not mean that ALL augments will be visually revealed.

    I don't think they are shown on gear, only potentially on skills if they change to another elemental type perhaps. Good question though.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Nerror wrote: »
    Bringing it up to a more general level, wanting privacy doesn't require an explanation or justification. This goes for character info as well. Privacy needs to be the default.

    Then play Skyrim.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sylvanar wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    What do you lose by me being able to see what social organization you belong to?

    Social organization being shown would make targeting a particular group easier. Lets say grp A wants to target grp B who are unaware of their nefarious schemes. At least members of grp A need to work for the info regarding the identity of members of grp B beyond hovering the mouse on people before enacting anything.

    If this info is as pointless as you claim them to be, then what is the point of even making them available?

    I never said the info was pointless. If you are going to debate with me, debate against the things I say.

    Your scenario above is exactly why the game should have this information available.

    This game is built on the idea of conflict between pseudo-factions. If one pseudo-faction wants to start some beef with another, the game should encourage this, not make it harder.
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2022
    Noaani wrote: »
    This game is built on the idea of conflict between pseudo-factions. If one pseudo-faction wants to start some beef with another, the game should encourage this, not make it harder.

    Being able to see a specific character's social organization accomplishes nothing of that nature the way the game is structured. Your arguments fall completely flat here.

    Any conflict between the social organizations are not direct PvP combat between players. They are about intrigue, espionage and sabotage. If you can just go to an enemy node board or inspect a character to see who's in what organization, you kill the fun. It's completely counter-productive to good gameplay.
    Social organizations are going to have questlines that players participate in which some will include sabotage, espionage, intrigue... While it's not necessarily player versus player in the combat sense, it is player versus player in pitting communities in those organizations kind of against each other in a competitive atmosphere, where only some things can be accomplished by certain communities; and not everybody can succeed at a particular task. So, I think that that's a unique way to involve meaningful conflict that doesn't necessarily have to relate to PvP, because obviously we have a lot of PvP systems in the game and and there are many ways for players to participate in player versus player combat; but we also want to make sure that from a progression standpoint, from a system standpoint there are going to be abilities of individuals to follow these questlines, these tasks that will pit organizations against each other, specifically from an organizational standpoint.

    If you can essentially just google who your opposition is (go to the opposing nodes node board), you potentially kill a lot of the challenge. It sure as hell doesn't improve the experience, and if it doesn't, you don't need the info.

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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited January 2022
    Nerror wrote: »
    Any conflict between the social organizations are not direct PvP combat between players.

    Well this is clearly not true.

    Any systems in the game that facilitate conflict between social organizations are not direct PvP.

    If me and my social organization decide we want to get in to a direct PvP conflict with your social organization (which could be for a number of reasons), then we are able to engage in direct PvP using the corruption system.
    Nerror wrote: »
    If you can essentially just google who your opposition is (go to the opposing nodes node board), you potentially kill a lot of the challenge. It sure as hell doesn't improve the experience.

    The challenge here should not be in finding out who is in the group you are wanting to oppose, it should be in fighting them.
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2022
    Noaani wrote: »
    If me and my social organization decide we want to get in to a direct PvP conflict with your social organization (which could be for a number of reasons), then we are able to engage in direct PvP using the corruption system.

    Then put in the work and find out who those players are through your own espionage and social engineering, instead of expecting to be hand-held through it and just be spoon-fed the information. You are just giving us even more arguments why listing that info on the node board is a bad idea.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Nerror wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    If me and my social organization decide we want to get in to a direct PvP conflict with your social organization (which could be for a number of reasons), then we are able to engage in direct PvP using the corruption system.

    Then put in the work and find out who those players are through your own espionage and social engineering, instead of expecting to be hand-held through it and just be spoon-fed the information. You are just giving us even more arguments why listing that info on the node board is a bad idea.

    To be clear here, you are saying that you are against Intrepid facilitating conflict in Ashes?
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    Noaani wrote: »
    The challenge here should not be in finding out who is in the group you are wanting to oppose, it should be in fighting them.
    In this case the challenge can be issued upfront. If grp A wants to fight grp B for some reason then they must have some beef with at least 1 member of grp B. There is simply no need to find more than one member of a social grp to go down this road.

    My point is that making social organization of a player known so readily will lead to ambushes and griefing.
    Noaani wrote: »
    To be clear here, you are saying that you are against Intrepid facilitating conflict in Ashes?
    Intrepid is facilitating conflict by enabling the creation of social groups which can fight. The why and how needs to player initiatives.
    "Suffer in silence"
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited January 2022
    Sylvanar wrote: »
    My point is that making social organization of a player known so readily will lead to ambushes and griefing.
    You mean PvP?

    Ashes is a PvX game, not a PvE/PvP/investigation game.

    The notion that any part of this other than the actual conflict is a part of the game is just incorrect.
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    I agree with @Nerror that we need the option to make large areas of shared data anonymous. I don't want anyone to have the easy option to target me because they know what social organisations (for example) they can work against to annoy specifically me. Even knowing what node my housing or freehold is in can be used to target me. If that information is shared then someone can easily follow/stalk me around the server being a little shit solely for their own gratification. Some players have the knack of finding a way of engaging with the game in a way that I might not want to deal with repeatedly.

    If someone needs to contact me then my name and guild name should be enough. They should be able to pm me in game.

    If someone wants to target me then at least make them do their own research to figure it out, don't hand out my characters details on a silver platter. We don't share our RL personal details online for a good reason and even though Ashes is a game, the same logic should apply IMO.
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    Noaani wrote: »
    Sylvanar wrote: »
    My point is that making social organization of a player known so readily will lead to ambushes and griefing.
    You mean PvP?

    Ashes is a PvX game, not a PvE/PvP/investigation game.

    The notion that any part of this other than the actual conflict is a part of the game is just incorrect.

    Dude, read again what Steven said the intent of the system is, instead of making shit up and making bad straw man arguments. It's not constructive in any way.
    Social organizations are going to have questlines that players participate in which some will include sabotage, espionage, intrigue... While it's not necessarily player versus player in the combat sense, it is player versus player in pitting communities in those organizations kind of against each other in a competitive atmosphere, where only some things can be accomplished by certain communities; and not everybody can succeed at a particular task. So, I think that that's a unique way to involve meaningful conflict that doesn't necessarily have to relate to PvP, because obviously we have a lot of PvP systems in the game and and there are many ways for players to participate in player versus player combat; but we also want to make sure that from a progression standpoint, from a system standpoint there are going to be abilities of individuals to follow these questlines, these tasks that will pit organizations against each other, specifically from an organizational standpoint.

    And "PvE/PvP/investigation" all fit nicely under the PvX umbrella and are clearly part of the game.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Jhoren wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sylvanar wrote: »
    My point is that making social organization of a player known so readily will lead to ambushes and griefing.
    You mean PvP?

    Ashes is a PvX game, not a PvE/PvP/investigation game.

    The notion that any part of this other than the actual conflict is a part of the game is just incorrect.

    Dude, read again what Steven said the intent of the system is, instead of making shit up and making bad straw man arguments. It's not constructive in any way.
    I already addressed this, read the thread.

    The social organization systems in the game are not about direct PvP - that doesn't mean people can't engage in direct PvP in relation to them.

    This is the same as how sieges and node wars are not related to corruption based PvP. However, it is a perfectly valid tactic for one side to prevent people getting to the siege by engaging them in PvP while they are on route. In fact, this is something Steven has talked about in the past - yet it is not a part of the sieging mechanic.

    So sure, direct PvP is not a part of social organizations - but that doesn't mean we can't make it a part of them.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    McMackMuck wrote: »
    I agree with Nerror that we need the option to make large areas of shared data anonymous. I don't want anyone to have the easy option to target me because they know what social organisations (for example) they can work against to annoy specifically me.
    Player reputation is key in Ashes.

    As a part of that, you can't just fade in to the background as and when it suits you.

    if you are a dick to people, and give them a reason to want to annoy you specifically, then they should be able to do that, as you bought it on yourself.

    if you want player reputation to be a thing in Ashes, then information on players needs to be a thing in Ashes.
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    I'll make sure to tick the Ex-Directory option on character creation.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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    JhorenJhoren Member
    edited January 2022
    Noaani wrote: »
    if you want player reputation to be a thing in Ashes, then information on players needs to be a thing in Ashes.

    Which is why name and guild tag is always on. No other information is necessary, warranted, or beneficial to gameplay. It's been working fine in all other MMOs where player reputation is a factor.
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    SylvanarSylvanar Member
    edited January 2022
    Noaani wrote: »
    Ashes is a PvX game, not a PvE/PvP/investigation game.

    The notion that any part of this other than the actual conflict is a part of the game is just incorrect.

    Investigation is part of the game, otherwise what is point of spying and subterfuge?
    PvX is PvE + PvP.

    Would you feel comfortable with your caravan details being available just by hovering a mouse over your character or it being posted on some board, just so that those who want to initiate conflict can be "facilitated" if fighting should be the only challenge in the game?
    Noaani wrote: »
    The challenge here should not be in finding out who is in the group you are wanting to oppose, it should be in fighting them.
    "Suffer in silence"
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sylvanar wrote: »
    Would you feel comfortable with your caravan details being available just by hovering a mouse over your character or it being posted on some board, just so that those who want to initiate conflict can be "facilitated" if fighting should be the only challenge in the game?
    There is no time or location data for a given event being talked about on these boards. The only location data is your freehold, and you are immune to corruption based PvP there anyway.

    As for spying, it isn't "part of the game" so much as it is something people will do anyway. Despite the recent Intrepid lead discussion on it (which exists to give people a feeling of participation - such discussions have no impact on development), there is not going to be any in game system for spying.
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    SylvanarSylvanar Member
    edited February 2022
    There are elections for Mayor, politics is being introduced in the game, node/castle siege is also there. How is spying not a part of the game? Spying is not a happenstance here. It is a direct result of game mechanics.

    Just because something doesnt have an impact on game development or doesnt have game mechanics "directly" supporting it, doesnt make it "not a part of the game".
    "Suffer in silence"
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Sylvanar wrote: »
    There are elections for Mayor, politics is being introduced in the game, node/castle siege is also there. How is spying not a part of the game? Spying is not a happenstance here. It is a direct result of game mechanics.

    Just because something doesnt have an impact on game development or doesnt have game mechanics "directly" supporting it, doesnt make it "not a part of the game".

    I specifically used quotation marks to point out that while it will happen, it isn't anything that has a system or mechanic associated with it in game.

    Spying is about as much a part of the game as forums, databases and spreadsheets are part of the game.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Jhoren wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    if you want player reputation to be a thing in Ashes, then information on players needs to be a thing in Ashes.

    Which is why name and guild tag is always on. No other information is necessary, warranted, or beneficial to gameplay. It's been working fine in all other MMOs where player reputation is a factor.

    The other thing that is always on is your faction.

    In WoW, everyone knows if you are Horde - not that reputation matters there.

    In Archeage, everyone knows which of the three factions you belong to.

    In Ashes, the game doesn't have actual factions. Rather, it has pseudo-factions. These are factions that people can join and leave essentially at will.

    These factions include things like religion and social organization.

    So essentially, the notice board displaying this information is the games way of displaying information that other games display - your faction. It's just that faction is a little more complex in Ashes.
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    If Intrepid decides to show the social organization and/or religion on the nameplates, that's one thing. If they don't, your point falls flat again. Apples and oranges.
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