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Costumes and Single piece cosmetic skins - Facts, and improvements?
AidanKD
Member
Hi All, I think it is safe to say that given the current topics active in the community as well as one of the topics which are considered one of the negatives of Ashes of Creation (not all without Merit, but in some cases there is extra information known which the greater community could learn - as well as some clarity we could get from Steven/Intrepid Studios) - is about the cosmetic pieces. I see there is quite an active thread right now regarding identifying armour types and it is starting to detail a bit, so I wanted to make this thread to elaborate on how the system is known to work (or how we think it does) - and how it could be balanced to be suitable.
Single Piece Cosmetic Skins:
These require first acquiring an actual in-game item that matches the base of the skin. My understanding is that the skins will at least somewhat resemble the design of the original, my hope is that it will resemble the original enough as such that there wouldn't be any ambiguity between what type of armour is being used.
Full body costumes:
These have no requirements and can just be equipped from level 1. This is what has caused the most discussion and where we can find a solution that doesn't cause any issue.
My belief of how it currently works is that you can have your normal gear equipped and the costume will act as a full body overlay/transmog. To me the term costume feels like something just for show though the choice of word isn't important here.
My form of "balancing" this would just be to make costumes non-combat armour. It could be worn but would actually occupy all the armour slots when in use and not provide any combat stats.
The issue I do see with my suggestion is that if alot of costumes will be in the shop and you can only safely use it in Towns but not out in the Wilds then it doesn't really incentivise getting them. And I think this is probably the dilemma of how to make the system work fairly seamlessly.
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What are your thoughts on balancing this, thoughts on my idea/s and clearing up any facts I might not know about that can be backed up with source?
Single Piece Cosmetic Skins:
These require first acquiring an actual in-game item that matches the base of the skin. My understanding is that the skins will at least somewhat resemble the design of the original, my hope is that it will resemble the original enough as such that there wouldn't be any ambiguity between what type of armour is being used.
Full body costumes:
These have no requirements and can just be equipped from level 1. This is what has caused the most discussion and where we can find a solution that doesn't cause any issue.
My belief of how it currently works is that you can have your normal gear equipped and the costume will act as a full body overlay/transmog. To me the term costume feels like something just for show though the choice of word isn't important here.
My form of "balancing" this would just be to make costumes non-combat armour. It could be worn but would actually occupy all the armour slots when in use and not provide any combat stats.
The issue I do see with my suggestion is that if alot of costumes will be in the shop and you can only safely use it in Towns but not out in the Wilds then it doesn't really incentivise getting them. And I think this is probably the dilemma of how to make the system work fairly seamlessly.
--
What are your thoughts on balancing this, thoughts on my idea/s and clearing up any facts I might not know about that can be backed up with source?
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Comments
That's the flaw with my suggestion which I acknowledge. So my follow-up to that is where is the middle ground, the best way to handle the way that costumes are handled?
If it really is such an issue that these can be worn at level one than change that, add level restrictions.
If the fact they can go over any armor is an issue then make them so they are only equip-able if you have the buff for a certain armor type.
The costumes are actual armor designs in the game. Also, is it that weird that armors could be crafted/re-crafted with different appearances? By default, it's going to change appearance based on the race wearing it.
If all costumes feel "natural" in the context of the game and look like actual armours etc thats fine and I will gladly admit I had too little confidence in IS. But I think we will see people run around in tuxedos, gala dresses, santa/easter bunny outfits and whatever else at some point. Pretty much all cosmetic games ive played have gone down this road of lost integrity.
Currently, all cosmetics are being made for the game world. They are all sets that will be used by NPCs.
This is indeed what the plan is.
Since people will be paying money for these cosmetics, Intrepid are unlikely to ever put players in a situation where others can not see the cosmetics they have paid for (other than potentially sieges). Steven has stated this in the past.
They have also said they are not going to restrict what costume you can wear based on what armor you are wearing, so that is a non-starter.
Since all of the cosmetics so far are fairly good fits for the game world, this leaves the only real issue I can think of to be threat assessment. A player should be able to see at a glance what type of armor another player is wearing.
Intrepids plan for this is to add a buff icon to players (same system as Archeage), This buff will be based on the armor type you are wearing, and likely also improve as the quality if your armor improves. This means a player could target you and see in a second or so what armor type you are wearing and roughly the armor quality.
This completely solves the issue in a 1v1 setting. The issue remaining is when more than one person in a costume threatens you. You now need to target each player individually in order to gain this basic information about them - information that you should be able to gain by just looking at their character (characters do not need to be all that close for me to be able to tell if they are wearing plate or cloth armor...).
To me, the best solution is to shift that buff icon to character nameplates. However, obviously many people would consider that to be too much clutter - and I agree with that.
So, the final step to that solution is to make nameplates able to be customized in the UI.
Have options for first name, last name, title, guild, armor icon and level, and allow characters to decide what is displayed on character nameplates. Then allow for a primary set and a secondary set, with a button (right ctrl imo) to either toggle between the two, or holding it will display the secondary set. Set the default to show first and last name, title and guild.
With this, we have a situation where players that buy cosmetics can wear what ever they want and know that everyone is able to see it, where players that want to be able to make an accurate threat assessment are able to do so, and where players that want a clean UI are able to have that. In fact, a player can have all three of these at the same time.
This is the best solution I am able to come up with.
Is there lore behind them? Some kind of magical mechanism that makes my fully plate armored (or fully cloth armored) character look like this
Or is it just the ancient lore of 25 bucks is 25 bucks, screw everything else. I think we all know the answer to that. And we all know it's not going to change. Steven has answered the questions about it. I agree with about 98% of Steven's vision, this is just one area I disagree.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter that much, it's just a layer of silliness and cheapness that will be part of an otherwise amazing game.
I would be fully in the camp of allowing a cosmetic toggle, but everyone should look the same to everyone else at all times. So I don't want to see a cosmetic toggle.
I agree with Noaani for once. Give us the option in UI to turn off names and any other relevant screen clutter and only display the icon above character's heads that indicates the quality/type of their gear.
It's the same lore that lets a tiny person with a dagger take on a bear in hand-to-hand combat and win. Or lets anyone take a massive fireball to the face without flinching. All of our characters have access to a mystical force called the "Essence". That allows us to do things that would be impossible in real life.
Sure, it's a hand-wavey "a wizard did it" explanation, but it's a video game and you either come up with some kind of convenient deus ex machina or ignore it entirely. At least Steven has made an effort to explain things.
Ashes of Fashion. heh
And how does a person manage to carry multiple huge weapons in their backpack, and pull a horse out of their own butt, and somehow run around for hours without having to go to the bathroom? It's a video game.
By having full body cosmetics and not using the other means to achieve the same objectives, you reveal it's one, true, functional in game purpose. To disguise your armor. And for pvp, that becomes meta. How much of a meta it will be depends on some factors, mainly how good or bad the armor quality/type indicator is.
But even if the armor indicator icon is top notch, the full body costume will still be meta if you're looking for every advantage you can get in pvp. Seconds matter, milliseconds matter in pvp. If it takes .3 seconds to identify the healer versus .6 seconds, that matters. So full body cosmetics will be meta to some extent. And I find that tragic, boring, unnecessary, and frankly wack, as they say.
But I don't mean to sound dramatic. This is not a huge or game breaking issue. Just unfortunate.
It doesn't have to have a functional in-game purpose aside from letting you look a certain way.
Honestly, if those cosmetics become common then people will ignore them. The same way you don't assume an enemy is weak because they are small, you won't assume they are unprotected because they're wearing a blacksmith's apron. You'll automatically look for other indicators, such as icons or whatever the UI provides.
This seems like a complete non-issue. Not even a minor issue.
It's not just you who is upset over it, and you are more moderate in your views than some, so don't think I'm targeting you solely in my comment here (even though I quoted you
We know, generally, that looking at a character who's a threat and seeing their true armor on display, we can make an instant threat assessment.
So the question is how good is this armor indicator icon while wearing full body cosmetics going to be. Will we be able to make that same instant threat assessment in all situations? I'd say probably not, but we'll see. If not, then it is an issue for pvp minded people. It will make full body costumes an advantage to some extent. Maybe not a big advantage, or even worth thinking about for most people. But the whole thing could have been avoided very easily, and that's what's tragic about it to me.
In a 100x100 fight I couldn't care what any particular person is wearing, nor should I.
If the situation is so chaotic, it's going to be hard to read armor anyway.
Any class can wear any armor so even without costumes, armor isn't a clear indicator of the class.
Crafters have control over stats that go on armor so even if you knew the type of armor, you wont know how it was altered.
But 25% of the tanks are wearing tank costumes or their real armor, 25% are wearing ball attire like they're about to go dancing, 25% are dressed like 18th century English lords, 1 is dressed like an actual Mardi Gras Indian, and the other ~25% are wearing mage costumes.
25% of the squishes look like tanks, 25% look like squishes, 25% look like they're going dancing, 25% also just so happen to be English lords too.
This will be the meta for more pvp minded organizations. Confuse your enemies because they're going to do the same to you. Force your enemies to individually target every person to make threat assessments or however the armor indicator works.
Just a mess. End of the world? No. Everyone will be dealing with the same set of rules. But it's just a shame because it didn't have to be this way. Intrepid could have allowed people to look how they want without full body cosmetics.
Edit: I just want to reiterate that this isn't a huge deal. Games gonna be fine, not the end of the world to me. I just think the armor indicator needs to be really good. And I like Noaani's idea with the UI options. It needs to be clean and very easy to see.
Their armor tells you more about the threat than just their class. Healer in light armor, focus first. Healer in heavy armor, focus the dps in light armor first etc. Things like that.
I like your idea of putting the armor indicator on the character's body. That could be a lot better than floating above their head which would be more prone to getting lost in a mass of other armor indicators from other people.
Just to illustrate my point a little more. Imagine a group of 5 pvp squad roaming. 1 tank, 3 dps, 1 healer. And they're all wearing the same full body cosmetic. 100% going to happen if there's any tactical advantage to it, which there probably will be, even if only slightly and situationally. I just think that's dumb. I know, different weapons, different races potentially, but still 5 guys in identical cosmetics will at times have the desired confusing effect.
Depends on the 100v100.
In Archeage as an example, there were many times either Halcy or MM were 100v100 (v like... 3). In these situations, you never have all 100 on each side going up against each other at the same time.
This is especially true in objective based PvP (which is what the scale of PvP in Ashes will be). If you have all 100 of your side in one area in objective based PvP, you are either not going after the objective you should be going after, or are leaving the objective you need to guard unguarded.
In 100v100 PvP, it is more likely that there will be individual battles between 20 or so people from each side at a time. Even if Intrepid manage to get sieges up to 500 per side, there will still rarely be this many people all fighting each other at the same time.
Though I do agree, if there were 100 enemies on screen at a time, it doesn't matter what armor any of them is wearing. The need to know is kind of limited to maybe 20 enemies at a time.
@Okeydoke I could see the problem with telling tanks vs healers apart in PVP but I thought there was a thing recently discussed where the cosmetic only applies to a similar item, meaning a heavy armor cosmetic can only apply to existing heavy armor and a cloth armor cosmetic can only apply to actual cloth armor, and not wearing cloth armor over my plate mail. Did I get that wrong, is that not a thing?
Edit: I found what it was, it was this thing about building cosmetics from Margaret, she says in there it could also apply to items, so it may or may not be a thing and seems to be open to finalization.
This is the confusing thing - Ashes has two distinct cosmetic systems. There is the transmog type system, where you apply a look to a piece of armor, and then it shows that piece of armor in that slot on your character. There is speculation (though not confirmed) that this will be armor type restricted.
But then the game also has a full costume system - where you equip a costume in one slot and it overrides all other items in terms of what is displayed on your character.
There are no plans for any restrictions at all with this system.
I disagree. Mainly because there are so many assumptions that have to be made about combat, corruption, open world pvp, what information will or won’t be available about another player, on and on. Given the number of systems that still need to be built, not to mention integrated, balanced, and calibrated - it’s premature to even consider ‘costumes are meta’ a problem.
If we were in Beta 2 with the vast majority of the game in calibration & polish mode, I’d probably have a different perspective.