I just don't think there's a solution to the problem. Meta is going to be people wearing costumes during pvp for the slight advantage it gives you. You should just be able to turn off cosmetics when you're outside of town. I wish that cosmetic buyers could at least get a poll or survey done on this so we could have a community opinion.
The solution of 'make every currently existing costume have individual pieces that are required to transmog to same type tier one gear and then design all future sets with the gear silhouettes in mind so that they display the various gear tier markers or are only applicable to a certain type of gear ' is a perfectly valid solution. Most people just don't like the idea and it adds costs to cosmetic creation.
Or you could do a minimized version of the first solution and make it so that all costumes are designed with the tier one silhouette in mind and make you pay extra to transmog it up to a higher tier silhouette (since it functionally costs extra resources to make yet even more models.)
Or you could just make costumes take up your entire gear slot and you are functionally naked, but people won't like that solution either, yet it is equally valid.
There are plenty of ways to approach this properly. They just require IS to make a cost benefit analysis and some decisions. I personally prefer the first of these solutions, but I'm a fairly biased costume hungry gamer who can only afford to care about Intrepid's bottom line so much >_>; You won't here me personally complaining if they choose the latter or some combination of these either.
Turning off cosmetics should be a last resort as it completely undermines an entire half of the psychology behind buying costumes.
Just have it like in wow. You transmog a set and that is what people visually see. The items being worn can also be inspected by players... so that they can see what is the skin in appearance... and what is the actual armour type being worn. I do think it would be smart for players to not use skins until like level 15 or 20...so that all players have that simple design for the initial push. While I do own skins, I will not apply them level 1 as I see that as foolish and immersion breaking. Lvl 1 toon looking like a level 20 toon in a starting area day 1
To me costumes should work the same way they work in ESO.
You can equip them via interface from level 1 on. They have no stats and no effect on your gameplay. They are just there for style.
Please also add this option for weapons
And I think it would be a bad thing if you can take a look at a character and see her stats because you know the gear.
I have a very hard time to explain what I mean by that.
Take Strider / Aragorn. If I feel like looking like stealthy Strider, let me, but if I want to look like King Aragorn the one hour later, let me do that too please. He is stil lthe same person (class) but I have a wide range of personally express my style how I feel at that time.
I understand when people like Asmongold want to play a big brute with a 3 meter sword. At the same time, i miss the option for me, someone who wants more realistic weapons. both is possible, both should be an option
To me costumes should work the same way they work in ESO.
You can equip them via interface from level 1 on. They have no stats and no effect on your gameplay. They are just there for style.
Please also add this option for weapons
And I think it would be a bad thing if you can take a look at a character and see her stats because you know the gear.
I have a very hard time to explain what I mean by that.
Take Strider / Aragorn. If I feel like looking like stealthy Strider, let me, but if I want to look like King Aragorn the one hour later, let me do that too please. He is stil lthe same person (class) but I have a wide range of personally express my style how I feel at that time.
I understand when people like Asmongold want to play a big brute with a 3 meter sword. At the same time, i miss the option for me, someone who wants more realistic weapons. both is possible, both should be an option
Both are options in Ashes.
Which is the problem. When people attack you, you need to be able to make threats assessments faily quickly. A major aspect of that is identifying basic equipment types. Not the specific items, just the type.
If someone comes running at you with a giant sword and plate armor, you expect to need to defend against that sword and attack against that armor. However, with costumes, they may actually be a healer in cloth armor holding a staff or some such. They may even be a ranger with a bow and arrow, yet they still appear as if they have that giant sword and plate armor.
This isn't an issue in ESO or WoW, because in those games, your enemies are the opposing faction.
In Ashes, with no factions, it's like a Schrödinger's type situation. You see a player, but you don't know if thet player is friend or foe until that status is put to the test
I don't think knowing the weight of armor your target is using just by looking at them is necessary, and I believe the gain from being able to look however you want outweighs the strategic loss from not seeing the armor type immediately.
Side note, I heavily prefer single piece cosmetic pieces over full body costume. I really like to mix and match all the styles and dyes I have available to come up with something really unique that I like. Of course, you can't guarantee everything will work together and that there won't be some clipping issues with certain combinations or body types, but taking that in consideration is part of the work when you customize your character.
Crow3 is right in that there's a lot we don't know right now that will affect how big of an issue it is. Weapons and race may or may not be big indicators of class, so that'll help with threat assessment if most healers are of X race and carry staves, not great axes. But if there's valid reasons for both healers and warriors to carry great axes, it becomes that much more confusing. Same with race. Neither your race nor your weapons will be concealed by costumes, hopefully at least. I think that's the case.
Nevertheless you still cant see their armor if they're wearing a costume. You have to look at the armor indicator icon. That is a textbook example of immersion breaking. There aren't many more clear cut examples of the breaking of immersion. Instead of looking at what a person is wearing, you have to look at an artificial icon indicator. I personally don't care too much about the immersion breaking, more the competitive angle of it.
But costumes almost certainly will be meta for certain classes/builds. The leader of a hardcore pvp group is going to tell his full light armor/god heals healer to put on a damn costume. Stop broadcasting that you're wearing paper and capable of delivering the strongest heals we have. If it takes an extra second for enemies to identify that you're the god healer, WORTH.
To me costumes should work the same way they work in ESO.
You can equip them via interface from level 1 on. They have no stats and no effect on your gameplay. They are just there for style.
I was a high profile player at launch in ESO and for some time after. I was emperor on Bloodthorn campaign for months. I used those costumes all the time, sometimes switching to a new one every 15-20 minutes. I had a big target on my back, constantly focused in big pvp fights.
So the costumes allowed me to weave in and out of the crowd without people being able to recognize me easily, until enough people realized the new look and then I'd switch again. And I was a squishy, light armor, so it helped in concealing that fact too.
It was a great time. And I'll probably end up doing similar things in Ashes. But being honest, it's such a bad design for pvp competitive integrity, immersion, natural threat assessment.
For some reason I would have a 100% tendency to go after this guy first.
That's kinda what I'm talking about. There will be tanks wearing stuff like that. End of the world? No. Clown show? Yes.
In Lord of the Rings Online, I knew a dwarven champion who was a badass and ran around with a couple of huge swords. He wasn’t in my guild but would do dungeons with us sometimes.
He always wore a frilly yellow sundress. It was just his thing I guess.
Giving players customization options gives them the freedom to look stupid. People have fun in different ways.
Crow3 is right in that there's a lot we don't know right now that will affect how big of an issue it is. Weapons and race may or may not be big indicators of class, so that'll help with threat assessment if most healers are of X race and carry staves, not great axes. But if there's valid reasons for both healers and warriors to carry great axes, it becomes that much more confusing.
While this is true, the thing that armor absolutely will tell you is what armor they are wearing.
If you are directing a small group vs another small group (potentially the most common form of PvP in the game), you want to know who has plate armor and who is wearing robes if for no reason other than to get appropriate DPS on to appropriate targets.
There is all kinds of ways we could debate the scale of the advantage that costumes will have, absolutely without doubt. We could also debate whether this is a pay to win advantage or not.
What we can't really do is debate that there is no advantage to it at all.
I think most of us agree that any solution is simply not going to happen if it impacts on the visual look of any item. Players will be able to display what they want to look like at all times, and any suggestions that prevent this from happening are just not going to happen from Intrepids perspective.
I still believe the only avenue at all for a solution is the UI, which is why I still believe the suggestion I have made in this and another thread is the best solution.
Well people having fun with something doesn't necessarily equal good design. There are many people who would have more fun if Ashes was full loot no consequences pvp, or fast travel, or instanced dungeons, or flying mounts for everyone.
It's all subjective though, there is no right or wrong in most cases including this one. My main argument in this thread is that they could have allowed people a ton of leeway to look how they want, including the freedom to look stupid, with just a wide variety of individual armor piece skins, which they already will have, without sacrificing pvp integrity, immersion or threat assessment.
Yeah I know Noaani, my next paragraph after that one I said that you still can't see their armor. I agree with you, Intrepid isn't going to change this. This discussion is just academic at this point. But out of it came your suggestion that I agree with, that this armor indicator needs to be so ridiculously clear and apparent, and I'd like UI customization options to personally make it as clear as possible for me (as you also suggested).
Just has to be said though, the de$ign could have been just as lucrative doing only individual armor piece skins, if not more lucrative.
And I just wanna say again, I'm not trying to whine about this. I fkn love this game and I've defended the game and Steven personally on other gaming forums. I am a 100% Ashes fanboy. But I call balls and strikes and give my honest opinions, no sugarcoating. It's just me.
I am against purchasable full body costumes, full armor skin sets and weapon skins but I would allow people to buy single piece cosmetics for armors. I don't mind if some one wants to use a little money to buy some little detailing for their armors. The main focus must be still kept in game achievable items.
Hmm. I still don't understand the usefulness of the concept. So, we could glean the armour type and the grade of armour but it won't tell you the stats to my knowledge. In any scenario with a build how you want policy, it is impossible to glean any substantial benefit over which person to attack when all are in top tear gear and multiple people are in the same armour types. They would look identical in indicators, different from cosmetics and individual in build. I usually focus on a target called out, a target doing well in the pvp (ending kill streaks etc) and even when targets are called out it is because the player plays well and must be neutralised. Its why you kill all healers, not just healers in heavy armour.
The usefulness of knowing the armor type/quality is the same usefulness that gives reason to why they're adding the armor icon in the first place. If it didn't matter, they wouldn't bother adding it. It just doesn't matter the same amount to different people evidently heh.
For me personally, some fights it matters a lot and some fights it doesn't matter at all. But for many pvpers, it's pretty normal to make split second decisions based on the visual cue of opposing player's armor. Hopefully the armor icons are good enough to let us do that as well.
Yes, I do not deny that pvp in a class styled lock is far smoother than pvp in a costume styled lock. I referred to the calls to replace the name and guild bars with the indicators instead. I do not believe it would be good for large vs large. I want someone to call 'Kill Phantom X' not 'Kill the person with gold trim, heavy armour, two handed hammer and the Paragon of Virtue Cosmetic'.
I should not have to learn thousands of cosmetics in order to determine a target. We should still keep name tags and guild tags. In sieges there won't be cosmetics but obviously guild wars will be in open world.
I do not deny that in small scale pvp the indicators will be better placed to be effective. I'm not opposed to indicators, just some proposals around indicators. Naturally, when you can apply cosmetics to any armour the lines become even more blurred without indicators. It is true I could learn all the cosmetics eventually, but I'd rather just learn about those that take my fancy.
I referred to the calls to replace the name and guild bars with the indicators instead.
I agree thisnwould be bad - though I have not seen anyone asking for it.
That said, I often tend to stop reading posts if they are too stupid, so it may just be that I didn't bother finishing to read the post in question.
The suggestion I have made in relation to this is to add that additional information to nameplates, but to then give players full control over customizing the way nameplates are displayed on their client.
That would be bad. Noaani's idea is for UI customization options to display the armor indicator icon how individual people want it. Not a blanket replacing of names with armor indicator icons for everyone at all times.
That said, I often tend to stop reading posts if they are too stupid, so it may just be that I didn't bother finishing to read the post in question.
It's not about silliness it's about covering all bases. I don't believe a bunch of yes people will see a good game. I take words literal and sometimes you do seem to emblish. Most of the time I can appreciate your direct approach even if I disagree.
In my head, I have issues with the active situation. How big would the icons be? What would the draw distance be? I have no aversion, I've seen it done before with PvP Shields and Guild Shields. The shields were unicolours and rather small.
I know name plates are rather long but a big square block next to all names would be unsightly. I just see a lot of mess in large scale if it was enabled. Of course, it could be hidden for sieges. Each to their own. I live and let live
In my head, I have issues with the active situation. How big would the icons be? What would the draw distance be? I have no aversion, I've seen it done before with PvP Shields and Guild Shields. The shields were unicolours and rather small.
The first two would be customizable, as would the size of the icons to denote armor type.
That way, you can see the information you want to see.
I agree that many people would also not want to see a big square block next to every name. That is why it is customizable, and why there is an option to customize a second nameplate viewed by holding down right ctrl.
You could make it so that you can see that icon all the time if that is what you want to do, you could make it so that there is nothing displayed on nameplates as standard, and only showing basic information like name and guild when you hold that right ctrl. If either of these are things you want to do, have at it as far as I am concerned.
For me, with this system, I would have first name and guild displayed, with pressing right ctrl showing me level and gear information, and title if titles do anything (I would never see a title if they do nothing and I have the ability to not see them).
Comments
The solution of 'make every currently existing costume have individual pieces that are required to transmog to same type tier one gear and then design all future sets with the gear silhouettes in mind so that they display the various gear tier markers or are only applicable to a certain type of gear ' is a perfectly valid solution. Most people just don't like the idea and it adds costs to cosmetic creation.
Or you could do a minimized version of the first solution and make it so that all costumes are designed with the tier one silhouette in mind and make you pay extra to transmog it up to a higher tier silhouette (since it functionally costs extra resources to make yet even more models.)
Or you could just make costumes take up your entire gear slot and you are functionally naked, but people won't like that solution either, yet it is equally valid.
There are plenty of ways to approach this properly. They just require IS to make a cost benefit analysis and some decisions. I personally prefer the first of these solutions, but I'm a fairly biased costume hungry gamer who can only afford to care about Intrepid's bottom line so much >_>; You won't here me personally complaining if they choose the latter or some combination of these either.
Turning off cosmetics should be a last resort as it completely undermines an entire half of the psychology behind buying costumes.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
Sure there is.
The problem is that it takes longer to assess potential attackers.
The solution is to make it easier and faster to glean that information.
You can equip them via interface from level 1 on. They have no stats and no effect on your gameplay. They are just there for style.
Please also add this option for weapons
And I think it would be a bad thing if you can take a look at a character and see her stats because you know the gear.
I have a very hard time to explain what I mean by that.
Take Strider / Aragorn. If I feel like looking like stealthy Strider, let me, but if I want to look like King Aragorn the one hour later, let me do that too please. He is stil lthe same person (class) but I have a wide range of personally express my style how I feel at that time.
I understand when people like Asmongold want to play a big brute with a 3 meter sword. At the same time, i miss the option for me, someone who wants more realistic weapons. both is possible, both should be an option
Both are options in Ashes.
Which is the problem. When people attack you, you need to be able to make threats assessments faily quickly. A major aspect of that is identifying basic equipment types. Not the specific items, just the type.
If someone comes running at you with a giant sword and plate armor, you expect to need to defend against that sword and attack against that armor. However, with costumes, they may actually be a healer in cloth armor holding a staff or some such. They may even be a ranger with a bow and arrow, yet they still appear as if they have that giant sword and plate armor.
This isn't an issue in ESO or WoW, because in those games, your enemies are the opposing faction.
In Ashes, with no factions, it's like a Schrödinger's type situation. You see a player, but you don't know if thet player is friend or foe until that status is put to the test
Side note, I heavily prefer single piece cosmetic pieces over full body costume. I really like to mix and match all the styles and dyes I have available to come up with something really unique that I like. Of course, you can't guarantee everything will work together and that there won't be some clipping issues with certain combinations or body types, but taking that in consideration is part of the work when you customize your character.
Nevertheless you still cant see their armor if they're wearing a costume. You have to look at the armor indicator icon. That is a textbook example of immersion breaking. There aren't many more clear cut examples of the breaking of immersion. Instead of looking at what a person is wearing, you have to look at an artificial icon indicator. I personally don't care too much about the immersion breaking, more the competitive angle of it.
But costumes almost certainly will be meta for certain classes/builds. The leader of a hardcore pvp group is going to tell his full light armor/god heals healer to put on a damn costume. Stop broadcasting that you're wearing paper and capable of delivering the strongest heals we have. If it takes an extra second for enemies to identify that you're the god healer, WORTH.
For some reason I would have a 100% tendency to go after this guy first.
I was a high profile player at launch in ESO and for some time after. I was emperor on Bloodthorn campaign for months. I used those costumes all the time, sometimes switching to a new one every 15-20 minutes. I had a big target on my back, constantly focused in big pvp fights.
So the costumes allowed me to weave in and out of the crowd without people being able to recognize me easily, until enough people realized the new look and then I'd switch again. And I was a squishy, light armor, so it helped in concealing that fact too.
It was a great time. And I'll probably end up doing similar things in Ashes. But being honest, it's such a bad design for pvp competitive integrity, immersion, natural threat assessment.
That's kinda what I'm talking about. There will be tanks wearing stuff like that. End of the world? No. Clown show? Yes.
In Lord of the Rings Online, I knew a dwarven champion who was a badass and ran around with a couple of huge swords. He wasn’t in my guild but would do dungeons with us sometimes.
He always wore a frilly yellow sundress. It was just his thing I guess.
Giving players customization options gives them the freedom to look stupid. People have fun in different ways.
While this is true, the thing that armor absolutely will tell you is what armor they are wearing.
If you are directing a small group vs another small group (potentially the most common form of PvP in the game), you want to know who has plate armor and who is wearing robes if for no reason other than to get appropriate DPS on to appropriate targets.
There is all kinds of ways we could debate the scale of the advantage that costumes will have, absolutely without doubt. We could also debate whether this is a pay to win advantage or not.
What we can't really do is debate that there is no advantage to it at all.
I think most of us agree that any solution is simply not going to happen if it impacts on the visual look of any item. Players will be able to display what they want to look like at all times, and any suggestions that prevent this from happening are just not going to happen from Intrepids perspective.
I still believe the only avenue at all for a solution is the UI, which is why I still believe the suggestion I have made in this and another thread is the best solution.
It's all subjective though, there is no right or wrong in most cases including this one. My main argument in this thread is that they could have allowed people a ton of leeway to look how they want, including the freedom to look stupid, with just a wide variety of individual armor piece skins, which they already will have, without sacrificing pvp integrity, immersion or threat assessment.
I just bought it, I think the full costume thing is intended by de$ign.
I'm also a fan of the Py'rai vibe tho, not just to hide my tank under it.
Just has to be said though, the de$ign could have been just as lucrative doing only individual armor piece skins, if not more lucrative.
And I just wanna say again, I'm not trying to whine about this. I fkn love this game and I've defended the game and Steven personally on other gaming forums. I am a 100% Ashes fanboy. But I call balls and strikes and give my honest opinions, no sugarcoating. It's just me.
For me personally, some fights it matters a lot and some fights it doesn't matter at all. But for many pvpers, it's pretty normal to make split second decisions based on the visual cue of opposing player's armor. Hopefully the armor icons are good enough to let us do that as well.
I should not have to learn thousands of cosmetics in order to determine a target. We should still keep name tags and guild tags. In sieges there won't be cosmetics but obviously guild wars will be in open world.
I do not deny that in small scale pvp the indicators will be better placed to be effective. I'm not opposed to indicators, just some proposals around indicators. Naturally, when you can apply cosmetics to any armour the lines become even more blurred without indicators. It is true I could learn all the cosmetics eventually, but I'd rather just learn about those that take my fancy.
I agree thisnwould be bad - though I have not seen anyone asking for it.
That said, I often tend to stop reading posts if they are too stupid, so it may just be that I didn't bother finishing to read the post in question.
The suggestion I have made in relation to this is to add that additional information to nameplates, but to then give players full control over customizing the way nameplates are displayed on their client.
It's not about silliness it's about covering all bases. I don't believe a bunch of yes people will see a good game. I take words literal and sometimes you do seem to emblish. Most of the time I can appreciate your direct approach even if I disagree.
In my head, I have issues with the active situation. How big would the icons be? What would the draw distance be? I have no aversion, I've seen it done before with PvP Shields and Guild Shields. The shields were unicolours and rather small.
I know name plates are rather long but a big square block next to all names would be unsightly. I just see a lot of mess in large scale if it was enabled. Of course, it could be hidden for sieges. Each to their own. I live and let live
That way, you can see the information you want to see.
I agree that many people would also not want to see a big square block next to every name. That is why it is customizable, and why there is an option to customize a second nameplate viewed by holding down right ctrl.
You could make it so that you can see that icon all the time if that is what you want to do, you could make it so that there is nothing displayed on nameplates as standard, and only showing basic information like name and guild when you hold that right ctrl. If either of these are things you want to do, have at it as far as I am concerned.
For me, with this system, I would have first name and guild displayed, with pressing right ctrl showing me level and gear information, and title if titles do anything (I would never see a title if they do nothing and I have the ability to not see them).