Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!

Lost Ark's success and the importance of combat

24

Comments

  • Perhaps through the choice of abilities and augments, some characters can enjoy a faster combat style, while others can enjoy a slower style.

    My experience is limited, so I don't know if this is even possible, but it seems plausible. If it can be done, and balanced well enough, then Ashes would have a larger player base to draw upon.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2022
    Azherae wrote: »
    New World's animations and speed are slower than Neverwinter, Dygz.

    EDIT: Extraneous over-engagement removed.
    LMAO
    Can you do the same thing to your own posts, please??!!
    smdh
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    New World's animations and speed are slower than Neverwinter, Dygz.

    EDIT: Extraneous over-engagement removed.
    LMAO
    Can you do the same thing to your own posts, please??!!
    smdh

    I... just did?

    Did you misread something?

    I normally don't assume you're actually just trying to troll people, but now I'm not so sure. Are you having issues with mirroring today? Slow down a bit, perhaps.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • fabulafabula Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    If we're talkig about a combat system from which we can learn from and take the best elements into AoC, we should forget Lost Ark and look to Terra.

    Having played both I enjoyed Terra's combat a lot more than I did Lost Ark. The part I am most interested in is the lancer combat mechanics with active blocking. Not only is this the most fun tanking experience I have ever had in any game, it changes the way ALL combat in the game is done when you add a short range cone that extends behind the tank which blocks/reduces damage to those standing in that area.

    In PvE group content you now have a lot more space to move around because the area in front of a boss mob is no longer forbidden territory. Pillars no longer have to appear and dissapear to block boss mechanics since now its up to the players on how to position and avoid these attacks. All those extra tank primaries go from being a necessary burden to being the second most wanted class behind the healer. This is because they can be used to eliminate/mitigate boss damage for their group.

    In PvP people will naturally group up around their tanks and move together instead of everyone being all over the place. You can see this in games like Overwatch when you compare it to other shooters, the main difference that makes this happen is the shield the tank provides. This would make large battles go from feeling like trench warfare with guns which is the way they usually feel in mmos to medieval battles with swords.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    New World's animations and speed are slower than Neverwinter, Dygz.

    EDIT: Extraneous over-engagement removed.
    LMAO
    Can you do the same thing to your own posts, please??!!
    smdh

    You don't act this way on your podcast. I'm not sure whether you want to be a keyboard warrior or not but alphabet soup is not an appropriate weapon.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2022
    Azherae wrote: »

    I... just did?

    Did you misread something?

    I normally don't assume you're actually just trying to troll people, but now I'm not so sure. Are you having issues with mirroring today? Slow down a bit, perhaps.
    What you did was paraphrase what I wrote in the previous post and summarise it into just one line.
    You are the one who has been trolling since your first response.
    Seems like you misread most of what I've written in this thread.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    fabula wrote: »
    If we're talkig about a combat system from which we can learn from and take the best elements into AoC, we should forget Lost Ark and look to Terra.

    Having played both I enjoyed Terra's combat a lot more than I did Lost Ark. The part I am most interested in is the lancer combat mechanics with active blocking. Not only is this the most fun tanking experience I have ever had in any game, it changes the way ALL combat in the game is done when you add a short range cone that extends behind the tank which blocks/reduces damage to those standing in that area.

    In PvE group content you now have a lot more space to move around because the area in front of a boss mob is no longer forbidden territory. Pillars no longer have to appear and dissapear to block boss mechanics since now its up to the players on how to position and avoid these attacks. All those extra tank primaries go from being a necessary burden to being the second most wanted class behind the healer. This is because they can be used to eliminate/mitigate boss damage for their group.

    In PvP people will naturally group up around their tanks and move together instead of everyone being all over the place. You can see this in games like Overwatch when you compare it to other shooters, the main difference that makes this happen is the shield the tank provides. This would make large battles go from feeling like trench warfare with guns which is the way they usually feel in mmos to medieval battles with swords.

    Terra only worked and survived a little longer thanks to consoles. The combat was fun but far too restrictive on pc. Perfect for a console, however, console port was too late to prevent degradation.

    Anyway, for healers key binds are best, for tanks tab is best and for dps action is best.

    In an ideal world you could choose which option you want, amalgamate the options or select two options out of three. Ashes attempts to achieve the merger.

    It's all about personal preference, balance and gameplay. So far, we have seen many combat iterations. We began with QuickTime events in combat. Needless to say, let the devs give us the systems, let us review the systems and let thr devs perfect the systems. Do not be the copier, be the copied.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • 1sab3la wrote: »
    insomnia wrote: »
    Lost Ark is also full of bots

    Not sure what that has to do with the topic. Also the bots while a problem especially on EU servers is a tiny % compared to over all base. It is being played by millions and I love the "because it is free". For a free game it sure is making good money and I don't just mean off t3 boxes although you can find some videos of people spending 1k-2k to power max gear on fresh character. Vast majority will just spend on cosmetic items. Also the OP specifically pointed out the combat and not the "world" or "business model" or even things like "itemization". I find all those to be bad imho but endgame combat is really fun.

    Unlike NA and EU a lot of Asian games are heavy p2w. LA started off poorly true but it was bad world experience with bad guardian mechanics and extremely p2w. Season 2 rebooted a lot of the game. Most Asian games I have played do well with combat. It is everything else that western market generally does not like such as grind, item leveling mechanics, p2w and so on.

    Honestly most people (edit: most in KR region) moved to LA because another popular game went heavy p2w. They don't like p2w but they don't have the market we have for games. The only way to milk is to attract people and that's why you see innovation in combat mechanics. Systems generally remain the same with some changes. Like LA you cannot break your gear when you level unlike BDO. BDO is another example of a game living because of combat.

    Most people I know enjoyed the combat even in NW (outside wars due to massive sync issues and bugs) but hated the over all game. Western market will catch up. Only innovation that you ever seem to really see is in fps/shooter type games but it's extremely competitive market so they have to be. No one wants to make a innovative mmorpg because they are so expensive.

    Anyways I hope combat is good in ashes. So far I'm excited and on my toes for excitement. I just hope they can deliver. Still very excited and would love to play the crap out of that game. Hopefully it's so fun it's the kind of game you lose your job over

    I honestly can't exactly remember where i was going with this. I might have been tired. But proberly more in the direction that it has it's issues. After i thought about posting, "some might say it's p2w". But some have done the math, of an extimate of the amount of bots, and no, it's not a small %.

    But the game is succesful because it's free. Ad in a subscription and it would lose so many players. I find the combat to be a joke. Perma cc garbage. I have never experienced an mmo, where you get attacked by the boss, as soon as you load the area the boss is in
  • KotterKotter Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    plz tab target chill mode!!!
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    I agree with the general sentiment that combat is a major, if not THE defining factor of a good MMORPG. That's why our team is working so hard on it after receiving quite a bit of feedback after Alpha One!

    What about combat do you think makes or breaks it in an MMORPG (or even any RPG!)?
    community_management.gif
  • LineagerLineager Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Lost Ark popular because of 3 things:

    1. Isometric (Dota 2 or LoL players)
    2. Hack and Slash (Path of Exile and etc)
    3. Now MMORPG market is dead
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2022
    Isometric Hack & Slash is different genre than MMORPG.
    It's like comparing American Football to Soccer.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2022
    MMORPGs focus on combat because it's the easiest way for the devs to program skills and abilities.
    (Kind of like the quickest, easiest way to have an Pre-Alpha was create a map and implement a Battle Royale for Apoc. Landmark did something similar.)
    But, it doesn't make or break TableTop RPGs.
    When I play D&D, I prefer to use CHA skills to complete encounters by avoiding combat. And I would much rather level as a Druid or Cleric by Healing NPCs and the environment and eradicating plagues without resorting to combat.

    I typically feel like I embody my class once I get some signature abilities, like Spirit Of The Wind or Stealth or Shapechange. Although, Healing abilities in MMORPGs is nice, it's frustrating to be Primarily limited to healing PCs.

    If a game is going to be focused around combat, then yes, that combat has to feel fun and rewarding.
    In the KOA: Reckoning, the best single-player MMORPG ever created (where the only bad feature is that you can't play with other players), their implementation of Stealth kills was so viscerally satisfying and entertaining that it turned me from a pacifist into a murder hobo. Also, their implementation of Stealth Pickpocketing made me truly feel like a I had embodied the role of a Rogue/Thief in a manner that has not occured in any other CRPG I've played. (IIRC, Cha skills also were satisfying).
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    Dygz wrote: »
    ... But, it doesn't make or break TableTop RPGs.

    This is SO true! I didn't even think of this! Funny enough, combat is actually one of my least favorite things about playing D&D haha! I think that's such a good observation.
    community_management.gif
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    ... But, it doesn't make or break TableTop RPGs.

    This is SO true! I didn't even think of this! Funny enough, combat is actually one of my least favorite things about playing D&D haha! I think that's such a good observation.

    I consider it entirely incorrect.

    When we talk about 'combat' in MMO terms we're not talking about the equivalent of that. In MMOs the combat system is equivalent to 'the DM', not 'the set of skills and abilities', though those can be unbalanced and frustrating in TTRPGs too.

    A poor DM sets up the situations poorly, implements the rules strictly and with no flavor or abilities for the players to do interesting things or adapt, and falters relative to 'ranges', or specific mechanics. The players can solve this by 'telling the DM how their abilities work properly from the sourcebook', because there is infinite time.

    A poor MMO combat system mediates the interactions poorly, implements the netcode strictly and with minimal synergies or decision-making due to the static aspect of positioning or defense, and fuddles mechanics and overlaps, losing track of player commitment and mobility. The players can only solve this by 'trying to do their abilities more within the structure the system grants them' or complaining to the designers, but they cannot change the outcomes in real time and metagaming triumphs.

    Even a game without combat still has a challenge system that the player is often trying to overcome that a DM can ruin, and in this parallel, the same thing happens. If 'interacting with your DM' feels unpleasant, the game suffers.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    insomnia wrote: »
    But some have done the math, of an extimate of the amount of bots, and no, it's not a small %.
    I like the game. I play it frequently. But the bots are insane. The vast majority of players in the game are bots. How insane is that? You go to a map, you'll see yourself, a dozen identical Barbarian characters (all with the same armor, the same white bunny pet, and random gibberish names) sometimes all following each other like shadows. And very rarely you'll see another actual player. I get excited when I see another real player and have to always stop and examine them, it is so rare.

    Just imagine that. An MMORPG where every map is crowded with bots and you almost never see another real player. It's insane.

    Still, I play it like a single-player game and it's pretty fun. The bot issue is probably the worst thing about the game. It's especially bad when I'm trying to log in and I'm stuck in a server queue for 10 minutes or more (yes, that is a real thing in a modern online game run on Amazon servers) and I know that there would never be any queues without the bots.

    Any time you talk about the pros and cons of the game, the bots are relevant. I have never seen a worse situation in decades of online play. I swear they do absolutely nothing to stop them. They supposedly have anti-cheat software but it's totally ineffective if there are bots running around in weird, glitchy ways shadowing each other. It's a great cautionary tale for any online game in development.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2022
    Azherae wrote: »
    When we talk about 'combat' in MMO terms we're not talking about the equivalent of that. In MMOs the combat system is equivalent to 'the DM', not 'the set of skills and abilities', though those can be unbalanced and frustrating in TTRPGs too.
    Whatcha mean "We"??!!

  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    When we talk about 'combat' in MMO terms we're not talking about the equivalent of that. In MMOs the combat system is equivalent to 'the DM', not 'the set of skills and abilities', though those can be unbalanced and frustrating in TTRPGs too.
    Whatcha mean "We"??!!
    Yeah, I don't get that out of "combat system" either. Any meaningful discussion must include skills, abilities... You know, things related to combat.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Atama wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    When we talk about 'combat' in MMO terms we're not talking about the equivalent of that. In MMOs the combat system is equivalent to 'the DM', not 'the set of skills and abilities', though those can be unbalanced and frustrating in TTRPGs too.
    Whatcha mean "We"??!!
    Yeah, I don't get that out of "combat system" either. Any meaningful discussion must include skills, abilities... You know, things related to combat.

    By 'We' I mean 'people who understand combat'.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    LMFAO
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Azherae wrote: »
    By 'We' I mean 'people who understand combat'.

    Ah, students of the esteemed Dunning-Kruger school of game design.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited May 2022
    Atama wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    By 'We' I mean 'people who understand combat'.

    Ah, students of the esteemed Dunning-Kruger school of game design.

    Hey, let's be careful about where we point the dunning-kruger finger.
    Azherae literally works with a dev team that has published games.

    I'd like to add my name to the list of people who don't want to go back in the direction of turn-based games.
    I really enjoyed Lost Ark's Combat - it was a different dance to what I'm used to, but I learned how it tangos and it was satisfying while I played. It's just a shame it becomes a grind of menial dailies.
    I'll still play Ashes either way, but do you @Azherae not think it's possible to have some builds that cater to people who want signficantly longer attack animations? Is it not possible to give them a defensive compensation with smaller window of weakness?
    edit: in other words, for people who need a slower pace of battle, could we not design classes for them with specifications similar to our bosses (obvious but slow telegraphing, super tanky, hit like a truck, low mobility etc.)?

    On the topic of tabletop RPGs,
    Do you think you could take, say, Baldur's Gate III and turn it into an MMO?
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2022
    Oh, right. I've never done that.

    It's not about people who NEED a slower pace of battle. It's about people who want a slower pace of battle than a Hack & Slash game.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    Oh, right. I've never done that.

    It's not about people who NEED a slower pace of battle. It's about people who want a slower pace of battle than a Hack & Slash game.

    Firstly I'd like to apologize to you for this thread's interactions in general, yes. You are right, that I misread things you said.

    On a personal level, you and I are both unpleasant people to interact with, on average, so it gets multiplied when we interact with each other, so I was usually avoiding that, and my original post targeting you was mostly trying to prevent you from bugging Neurath.

    But in the sense that I misread your posts, I am entirely at fault. For any future interaction, I offer an explanation. The 'extraneous over-engagement removed' thing was because I posted something, something you might have seen and started to respond to, and then realized that BECAUSE I wasn't clear about what point you were making, I should try to get down to just one thing to see what the flow was going to be. Your response was strange to me, so I responded genuinely about the mirroring (is this not a technique you intentionally use? I can adjust if not).

    I do NOT assume you are trolling. I DO assume that your reactions are based on what you feel the other person is doing. I am not sufficiently 'easy to read' in that way, for our interactions to go differently, and I don't mind continuing to 'not have them'.

    Therefore I'll continue in my usual protocol of non-engagement, but address your points through other people's posts or quotes, and I will be more wary about engaging if I am unsure that I understand them.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    maouw wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    By 'We' I mean 'people who understand combat'.

    Ah, students of the esteemed Dunning-Kruger school of game design.

    Hey, let's be careful about where we point the dunning-kruger finger.
    Azherae literally works with a dev team that has published games.

    I'd prefer if you not mention this, because it's not particularly meaningful here, even as a 'defense'. It's useful for people to not think about this because those who make weaker arguments will default to them when they do not think they're addressing someone who doesn't have experience, and it's easier to ignore them then. Let this paragraph therefore be a meta-return to uncertainty about my experience or knowledge.
    maouw wrote: »
    I'd like to add my name to the list of people who don't want to go back in the direction of turn-based games.
    I really enjoyed Lost Ark's Combat - it was a different dance to what I'm used to, but I learned how it tangos and it was satisfying while I played. It's just a shame it becomes a grind of menial dailies.
    I'll still play Ashes either way, but do you @Azherae not think it's possible to have some builds that cater to people who want signficantly longer attack animations? Is it not possible to give them a defensive compensation with smaller window of weakness?
    edit: in other words, for people who need a slower pace of battle, could we not design classes for them with specifications similar to our bosses (obvious but slow telegraphing, super tanky, hit like a truck, low mobility etc.)?

    On the topic of tabletop RPGs,
    Do you think you could take, say, Baldur's Gate III and turn it into an MMO?

    I'm arrogant enough to believe I can turn any tabletop into an MMO system. But that's what I meant before. It's a DM thing. I can DM in different ways according to the wishes of the players. Ashes can be built about 6 ways. I think I've mentioned this before. One I will like and find interesting, one I will tolerate but find boring, one I will consider terrible but exploit if I care enough to play, and three that are bad in some way, either failing to engage with players AND failing balance, or in one case, just feeling too terrible to me (and possibly many other players).

    As for the builds question, I consider that easy. But only up to a point.

    At some point, there is a class that does not need to wait or respond to anyone else. Usually the stealth DD or ''Warrior". They attack, and they keep attacking, and they don't strictly speaking NEED to respond to an opponent unless that opponent has incredible mitigation. Even then, they are best served by... waiting a bit and then attacking.

    Their goal is to overwhelm the defender with decisions and cut through their capacity to execute those defenses with speed and power. This class is dynamic, but does not have to 'respond' to much.

    When that class has learned the animation lengths of the defending class, which is easier to do when the attack animations are longer, they just hit at the recovery portion of those animations, or at the timer for the ending of the buffs, putting more and more pressure on.

    As long as even one DD class has 'quick animations and lots of damage boosts by either timing or position', the rest of the game is then 'anchored' to that speed, and cannot deviate that far from it in a PvP game, because anything unable to keep up with them is defeated.

    As I always say, it's a matter of degrees.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2022
    It's OK. I don't mind.

    I agree with your perspective on combat. There are multiple perspectives which are not mutually exclusive.
    I shared a very narrow view because I was mostly responding to Vaknar's post about combat making or breaking MMORPGs. And then sharing a bit about what I like about combat. And a bit about what motivates me to enjoy combat in MMORPGs
    And, yes, the perspective I shared is from the view of someone who prefers to avoid combat in RPGs.
    I was not commenting on how to design combat from from a dev perspective.

    So...I think your description of setting up challenges is correct. But, setting up challenges is not what I was talking about in the post you responded to.

    I always enjoy your posts, Azherae.
    We have different playstyles, so I don't always agree with your suggestions, but that's like a casual v hardcore thing...
    Your perspective is always valuable even when it's not exactly what I would want.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    And finally, as for my disagreement with Dygz (and I guess Vaknar?) that is actually in line with the point of this thread.

    I do not think one gets to disqualify games based on the genre one perceives them to be. You'll end up not giving good feedback to anyone trying to build any hybrid systems, or break new ground. Gameplay loops intermingling with combat can be done 'better' by designers who have an understanding of what the game requires the player to feel during combat, but it's not strict enough. Call it 'the DM', or don't, it doesn't matter much.

    Games are convergent in their design, abilities, and the combat system is now one of the few things that even separates them from each other. And when I say 'system' I mean 'mostly things other than the abilities'. To the point where MMO designers barely even get to 'design their own classes' anymore, because the list of 'expected prerequisites' for archetypes is so relatively long.

    They're all just pushing for maximum inclusion now, and for that reason if no other, I don't expect Ashes to deviate much from this. The question is 'what parts of the system do the abilities interact with'. To clarify that:

    "You can tell me that Clerics have Hallowed Ground and I will basically know what it does, because every similar ability in other games does some subset of those things based on what mechanics are important."

    In a high mobility game, I wouldn't expect Hallowed Ground to go for only 'damage and healing' for example, because people would move out of it, and frontliners would NEED to move out of it. The 'high mobility' part of the game is 'DM', the 'DM' looks at the 'standard' ability 'Hallowed Ground' and should, in my experience, conclude 'oh I need to modify the effect for this game since my players asked me to give them a high mobility feel'.

    Lost Ark is just 'the same abilities put in a movement-positioning based game'. I encourage anyone to watch the flow of it, even just the class demos, and notice how slow everything actually is. The player commits very hard to a 'movement' and then tries to make sure they are positioned correctly because the movement itself is going to take a while, so you have to have chosen the right movement, based on what the opponent group is doing.

    But we don't know what type of game Ashes is supposed to be yet, so even if we talked about what abilities we want, we're still relying on the 'DM', the game's systems, to make the abilities useful. If Ashes turns out to be a low-mobillity no-iframes game, then expect AoE burn-downs even if high mitigation skills are involved. If it is an 'active blocking for heavy mitigation' game, expect the CC/Debuff class to reign supreme EVEN if you can block those, etc.

    I do consider those who don't understand this, to not understand 'combat', not just in MMOs, but in multiple game types, so I must either argue with them for what I consider to be 'the success of Ashes as a game I want to play', or 'not bother and hope that Throne and Liberty is good'.

    I'm still here, for now.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2022
    I'm not "disqulaifying" a game.
    The things that are great about American Football don't necessarily work for Soccer.
    And the things that are great about Soccer don't necesarily work for American Football.

    The techniques I want to use in Tango are not the exact same techniques I want to use when I dance Salsa.
    The techniques I want to use in Salsa are not the exact same techniques I want to use when I dance Tango.
    And...I don't want to dance Tango to Death Metal music.

    That's not disqualifying anything.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited May 2022
    Azherae wrote: »
    On a personal level, you and I are both unpleasant people to interact with, on average, so it gets multiplied when we interact with each other, so I was usually avoiding that, and my original post targeting you was mostly trying to prevent you from bugging Neurath.
    Also...
    Maybe it's not necessary for you to try to defend other people from me?

    Neurath wrote: "I love the sandal god but of course the sandal god might not like a theoretical blood Shaman lol."
    I replied: "I'm very eager to see how close you can get to creating a Blood Shaman..."
    Meaning, even if the devs don't like the concept, I want to see how close he can get to making the character he envisions.

    I don't consider that to be bugging anyone.
  • AdelissaAdelissa Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Intrepid definitely knows this and has so far been very receptive of feedback, I have high hopes.
    Adelissa | Guild Master | Heathen Lords
    avlegukgqhk0.png
Sign In or Register to comment.