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Gear Rarities!

poisonzpoisonz Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited April 2022 in General Discussion
hear me out O_O!

Poor < Common < Uncommon < Rare < Epic < Ancient/Mythic < Legendary

Steven put out how he wants legendary to mean something in-game but since only SOME may be limited to one server it leads to staining the word Legendary and this is why. Basically it means once you reach max level with a full set of epic you'll most likely work your way up in a massive guild for your next Legendary Set as not all are limited to one server. Over time you'll see people with either full set or some pieces of legendary making it the new requirement that leads tarnishing of the word legendary. It wouldn't feel Legendary if most have it, Even if it's extremely slow prosses to gather the material it's still a legendary that anyone can obtain that requires nothing but time.

What I considered is making all Legendary items to be ALL limited to one per server even craft-able ones, making all Legendary items to actually feel legendary while the new Ancient/Mythic rarity (orange/ color probably) the next step for near legendary for guilds and the dedicated solo player to achieve.
we all know Legendary items from the wiki said Legendary equipment will have a roughly 6-12% improvement in base stats, subject to testing and balancing. in my opinion the way I can make Ancient/Mythic item work is to be improve roughly 2-6% in base stats, nearly competing with legendary users but still bellow legendary threshold. making this the new rarity to strive for after endgame as epic rarity seems to be the basic standard to reach in the beginning of max level.

reason for this discussion is the way steven set up legendary for it's own downfall in my view but that's just my opinion and I want to know how would you fix it or would you even change it?
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Comments

  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Here is a good gear rating system:
    Common
    Legendary

    All items are common except for the legendary. The legendary items have some unique features and make players stand out. They are very rare.


    See? None of that time-wasting green-blue-purple-gold crap. Skip the middleman and have cool legendary items and satisfying, yes satisfying, common items.
  • Here is a good gear rating system:
    Common
    Legendary

    All items are common except for the legendary. The legendary items have some unique features and make players stand out. They are very rare.


    See? None of that time-wasting green-blue-purple-gold crap. Skip the middleman and have cool legendary items and satisfying, yes satisfying, common items.

    An excelent way to throw gear progression out of the window.....
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Gear progression sucks anyway. Let's have non-gear-based character progression IMO.
  • clone63clone63 Member
    edited April 2022
    I don't get the impression you'll see people in 'sets' of legendary gear, especially in numbers to the degree it is off putting to people in mythic stuff.
  • RevengeRomanRevengeRoman Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Honestly I'm not worried about it, the volume and difficulty to obtain and maintain legendary weapons and armor as well as the fact that different nodes and different areas will have different legendary equipment available for acquisition won't allow for there to be much uniformity in the player base even if everyone does end up with legendaries.

    Based on what we have been told thus far I don't see any reason to change the system or be worried about its implementation until we see the Alpha 2 product. At which point it will be productive to provide player feedback.
  • DizzDizz Member
    edited April 2022
    I personally prefer horizontal gear progression but it’s not mean that I against vertical gear progression completely, I very like the gear progression in GW2 because it’s more convenient to a casual player like myself to feel I can come back to the game anytime I want and more easier to balance between real life and game life.

    Maybe Ashes don’t need real vertical gear progression, because back in the day we have epic epic legendary weapons like Thunderfury, Sulfuras, and Warglaive of Azzinoth etc in WOW but after expansions old legendary gears become shit item and skins or items only lay in bank and I hate about it, why after expansions old legendary gears don’t shine anymore and lost the glory forever?

    I more like to see that intrepid make a more horizontal gear progression in end game so if intrepid once make epic legendary weapons they can long live in the game like a legendary weapon in ashes more like Master sword in Zelda0 BOTW, and the rest gear progression are like from tree branch to Royal Guard's Sword/Ancient Short Sword etc and maybe gears above rare level can be synergies with repair and enchant system, like you repair a rare gear to 100% will give the gear a enchant effect base on its rarity for X% durability.

    And maybe that legendary gears are situational, like you have to choose when you should use legendary gears because gears have CDs to repair itself or the materials require to repair those gears are gated somehow.
    A casual follower from TW.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    I think it may be helpful to look at Archeages gear progression - as Archeage is the game that is the biggest influence on Ashes.

    Archeage gear tiers are;

    Crude
    Basic
    Grand
    Rare
    Arcane
    Heroic
    Unique
    Celestial
    Divine
    Epic
    Legendary
    Mythic
    Eternal
  • CawwCaww Member, Alpha Two
    We all know there is gear that we ourselves are never gonna get our hands on but there needs to be something decent we can actually get so we can atleast say "it's not the best but it will do".
  • superhero6785superhero6785 Member, Alpha Two
    As long as it takes long enough, by the time the average player gets their hands on full mythic or a few legendaries, there will be an update with new content and items for the hardcore players to grind for.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Here is a good gear rating system:
    Common
    Legendary

    All items are common except for the legendary. The legendary items have some unique features and make players stand out. They are very rare.

    I’ll take this over consulting a prisma wheel to decide whether my sword with a periwinkle title is higher value than a puce axe. Gear progression is a little absurd these days. 🙄
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  • RazThemunRazThemun Member, Alpha Two
    I don't care what they are titled as, I just want to feel meaningful progress.

    I want to be stronger on day 30 then I was on day 1, I then want to be much stronger on day 60, then I was on day 30...

    What I do not want, is "oh well here comes a new expac or chapter, so we need a catch up system for little benny who is on his 5th day, so that he can run all the content you currently run and built up to for 400 hours"!

    Let gear just be gear, with higher stats that you earned through harder content. or from higher levels of crafting. No need for names, labels, etc... Just raw numbers of stats and weapon abilities. "Oh how did you get a level 300 axe? Well Benny you do these 15 things and kill 600 people in pvp and eventually you can earn a 300 axe. Now put that level 10 axe to work!
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yeah. I don't think even the BiS gear people strive for at max Adventurer level equates with Legendary.
    Legendary in Ashes is closer to an item that is one of a kind on a server.
    I'm not sure it's even possible to have a Legendary Set of armor. Especially, not in a manner that multiple characters on the server could own the same Legendary Set.
  • There shouldn't be a set limit, "one-per-server" type item. 9/10s out of ten how that shakes out is someone gets the item, quits the game for some reason or the other, and nobody sees the item ever again.

  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I disagree there should most certainly be one of a kind things in the game. Make legendary mean something again. Everyone have having the legendary makes it what? Common? WoW did this. Nothing says legendary like everyone having one. "Here is a one of a kind named weapon!!" Sweet as you walk around the corner and see 20 other people with the exact same one of a kind legendary name weapon.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Armor

    Item rarities

    Item rarities in Ashes of Creation.

    Poor.[120]
    Common.[121]
    Uncommon.[122]
    Rare.[123]
    Epic.[124]
    Legendary.[125]

    Certain legendary items may be limited to one per server at any given time.[132][133]

    If the player character leaves the server then the item will become available for acquisition through whatever means it was acquired previously.[132]

    There are absolutely legendary items and they're not items that are attained easily nor are they granted out in a volume. There might even be items that are single items that will exist on the server at any given time.[133]

    A legendary weapon is easily distinguished by its visual appearance.[129]

    It will be a very ornate and detailed weapon, more so than any other weapon or piece of equipment in the game. It will also include some awesome looking effects that won't too gaudy, you know they won't be too bright and shiny so that it doesn't look good, but they will be subtle and people will notice it and know wow that guy has this weapon.[129] – Steven Sharif

    Legendary items are not intended to be temporary.[134]

    A notable exception to this is Royal mounts.[135]

    The fact there is only one of them... or very very few of them depending on what it is. I think that in and of itself is a balance component right and you need to make sure that the players who are striving for those legendary things and who are devoting the time energy, resources in order to achieve them are accurately rewarded... We do not intend on having legendary items that are temporary.[134] – Steven Sharif
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yeah. I think max level BiS gear might be Epic.
    Legendary is closer to one-of-a-kind per server.

    Steven says if someone with a unique Legendary item quits the game, "that item will be available again for aquisition through whatever means it was acquired previously."
  • BonfieldBonfield Member
    edited April 2022
    That's a nice sentiment but seems like it would be a PITA to monitor/regulate. Community managers are going to be spread thin trying to manage gold farmers/bots, I don't want them to spend any time out of the day checking in on how often individual players are logging in. What happens if someone quits, then rejoins the game? Do they lose the item?

    Items can be hard-to-obtain while simultaneously non-unique.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Apparently, someone who quits for long enough will lose the item.
    Seems like that will be handled programatically rather than via a Community Manager or GM.
  • That sounds like an awful system
  • RevengeRomanRevengeRoman Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I agree whole heartedly with the Ashes approach to Legendary equipment. Keep in mind too, each Node will have their own bosses and quests, and these will change over time. This presumably includes different legendaries that each node may have access to, and that may change.

    Every stage a node develops it's unlocking narratives, storylines, it's changing the spawn population of the area around it, changing what bosses exist, it's triggering events where you may have legendary dragons attack the city. It's basically writing the story of the server based on the actions and determination of the players. So, you may experience a dungeon one month earlier and have a completely different story that relates to this location the next month, because something has changed either geopolitically or from the node standpoint.[49] – Steven Sharif


    If we break everything down, let's say our server is full and assume the upper end of their estimated server cap at 10,000 players.

    Let's then assume that there are 5 Legendaries obtainable in each node through Narrative quests at varying Node stages.

    There will be 103 Nodes on launch.

    There will be 103 Node locations at launch, each with its own impact on the narrative and development of the world.[7] – Margaret Krohn

    So let's do a little bit of math assuming 5 legendaries per Node and round down to 100 nodes for the sake of this example to make things easier on ourselves without damaging the point.

    10,000 players divided evenly into 100 nodes would give us an average of 100 players per node. I recognize that player density is most certainly not going to be this even, but let's assume it is for the sake of best case scenario here.

    This means for every Node and thus 100 players, there could be 5 Legendaries. In other words, 5% of players will have a single legendary item.

    This amount will be significantly lower though as a result of the fact that not all of the legendaries one may be able to acquire from a Node may be available to acquire.

    An example of this could be that at a City stage, you may only have access to 2 of the 5 quests that reward with legendaries. And at a Village stage none of the Legendary quest lines are available.

    All of this estimation assumes 5 legendaries per Node may be available. With that said and the way I understand things will work, I don't believe legendary items will be common, even after years or a decade of playing.

    Of course I could be wrong, or have miscalculated or misunderstood. But that's the way I see it as of right now.
  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yeah anyone who feels an uncontrollable need for BiS, or to have 100% collection of things is not going to enjoy a bunch of their planned systems.
  • BonfieldBonfield Member
    edited April 2022
    And that's fine, I don't need or want them to be common, or easy to obtain.

    What I don't want is people punished for needing to take time off from the game. Picture it - you grind out your legendary excalibur-type sword, and are feeling great about yourself and the game. Then you get a promotion, and your desire to play slips away. You log in less and less. Months go by; a new expansion brings you back, only to find out that your excalibur-type sword was removed because you "weren't committed enough to the game."

    Do you take this lying down? No, you make an online petition, gathering thousands of signatures on reddit. Josh Strife Hayes makes a video about how punitive and exclusionary AoC's systems are, and Asmongold reacts to it. It gets 3 million views.

    Excalibur-type sword is restored, and steven says the system will be "addressed."
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You're likely to lose stuff when you take time off from Ashes.
    When you return, you may have lost your Node and Node citizenship. You may have lost your status in your Religion and Social Org. You may have lost your position in Government. You may have to rebuild and relocate your Freehold.

    And, yeah, people will know before launch that they will lose their Legendary item if they quit playing for long enough. If that's a deal-breaker - don't play the game.
    Can't please all of the people all of the time.
  • BonfieldBonfield Member
    edited April 2022
    Yeah but you can get another node/node citizenship. You can get another position in a guild/org. You can even get another title, if you want to put in the work. All of those are various soft caps, or limits in-game

    But getting something TAKEN AWAY from you by the devs to enforce arbitrary scarcity just seems like a bad system, or at least one that will be left on the cutting room floor.

    At the end of the day you'll be discouraging people from returning to the game, or reactivating their account. Seems like a myopic choice in this day and age.
  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I also feel like they should be very clear with how long you have before an item you farmed is gone; e.g. “if you don’t log in for 30 days your legendary item will turn to ash and be able to be claimed by someone else who fulfills the requirements”.

    As long as they are very clear with it then I feel that petition has no grounds. If someone got a promotion and doesn’t have time to play the game anymore then they should probably focus on their new job and let someone else play with the shiny thing.
  • RevengeRomanRevengeRoman Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Bonfield The way I see it there are two ways to implement it.

    Either they are time/durability limited and hence logging out for a couple of months will result in them expiring or otherwise becoming available to other players again.

    Or

    They have no time or durability limit and do not leave your inventory once you earn them. Eventually resulting in some servers having zero unclaimed, and available legendary item.

    Unless you have a way to implement it where this doesn't happen and Intrepid can maintain the rarity of Legendary items?
  • At a bedrock level I don't like the idea of hardline limits on legendary items, and I don't like the idea of dev intervention in the game to punish players for not playing. Their goal should be to encourage people to play, not discourage.

    I think I'd be okay with legendary items having a time/durability limit, even if you're playing the game. Lore-wise you can make it work for whatever reason - the divine blade can only be attuned to our reality for a certain amount of time, for example - and then someone else needs to go through the steps to get the favor of the gods again.

    Honestly, I'd prefer to find a way to destroy legendary items, akin to capital ships in EVE. A nice, player-driven cycle of creation and destruction.
  • HumblePuffinHumblePuffin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Instead of making it a set time frame and poof it’s gone, after a set time frame of inactivity from the owner, players can activate a quest to find the disembodied avatar of the player who owns the legendary. Players take on the quest, must summon the avatar and release them from their connection to the legendary making the initial legendary requirements open to be completed again for another player.

    The avatar could use the players exact build and armor. Could make for some interesting experiences where peoples most memorable boss fight was fighting the avatar of “insert player name here”. “Idk what build that guy was using when they went inactive but I wiped on them 5 times trying to unlock the Excalibur quest line”
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    In L2, there was a great feeling obtaining the only and first known recipe drop on a server, such that until I showed it nobody believed it existed. That remained so for many months.

    Kind of would like that feeling to be replicated once in a while.
  • Odds are against you
  • edited April 2022
    Lineage 2's Gear Scarcity was a very interesting method of making all gear be exciting and meaningful, even tho Lineage 2 had no "gear rarity" other than their Grades which were correlated to Level required to use the gear which would get exponetialy harder to get + crafting of armor and weapons had a 60% chance of success(D grade lv 20, C grade lv 40, B grade lv 52, A grade lv 61 and S grade lv 76)(before the introduction of common and foundation gear) and every piece of armor/weapon was exactly the same for every one, gear was so scarce people would reach lv 61+ in C grade and 76+ in B grade, for example monsters up to around level 68 would only drop up to top B grade gear and materials and still be as strong as their levels would imply.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
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