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What do you like about open-world PvP?
Reskun123
Member
Hi,
Because of the recent PvP discussion I got really curious and wanted to find out what people love so much about open-world PvP. I've never really understood it because from my experience you are always put into a situation where you can't/have extremely low chance to win.
Majority of my experience with open-world PvP have been while I'm 1v1ing a mob. So not only am I low hp & mp from attacking a mob and my skills are on cooldown but also I'm facing a mob and a player at the same time AND the player got the advantage of attacking first meaning his skills will be reusable again sooner.
I'm not against open-world PvP at all, I understand that people do enjoy it, I just want to understand a little more why people enjoy it so much when (to me personally) majority of open-world PvP seems like just unfair fights with almost no chance of survival for the defender.
Cheers.
*Again I'm not against the open-world PvP, just wanna make that clear.*
Because of the recent PvP discussion I got really curious and wanted to find out what people love so much about open-world PvP. I've never really understood it because from my experience you are always put into a situation where you can't/have extremely low chance to win.
Majority of my experience with open-world PvP have been while I'm 1v1ing a mob. So not only am I low hp & mp from attacking a mob and my skills are on cooldown but also I'm facing a mob and a player at the same time AND the player got the advantage of attacking first meaning his skills will be reusable again sooner.
I'm not against open-world PvP at all, I understand that people do enjoy it, I just want to understand a little more why people enjoy it so much when (to me personally) majority of open-world PvP seems like just unfair fights with almost no chance of survival for the defender.
Cheers.
*Again I'm not against the open-world PvP, just wanna make that clear.*
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Comments
I also enjoy being able to fight over resources that I may want that someone else currently has - whether those resources are actual items or mats, or a valued grind spot. Having the choice to do so, whether I'm the aggressor or defender, feels better to me than it all being free to everyone in a way.
On top of those reasons, the convenience of open world PvP helps too. Knowing that I can go to some area in the open world known to be a gank fest rather than looking for arranged PvP elsewhere can be a nice change of pace.
Pretty much this.
When your game is purely PvE with no open-world PvP, the open-world becomes boring and predictable. There's next to no danger when doing open-world activities. When you add PvP to the mix however you need to always be on guard. If you want to pull a pack of mobs then you need to make sure there's no one around you that could attack you when you pull them. When you're travelling you can't really just autorun and alt+tab out of the game window and watch a stream in-case you get attacked. It makes the game much more fun in my opinion.
PvP added to the open world actually requires a bit of discipline. Always making sure you're topped off, always knowing exactly what you can and cannot handle.
The losing thing stops once you practice, dueling, 1 v X, group vs group, it all teaches you how to react in the open world.
And the greatest mark of a truly skilled player is coming back from a health deficit and being able to kill your assailants.
Adrenaline is another one. When you’re in a owpvp scenario you always have to be prepared for someone to come out of nowhere. It forces you to manage your health mana and CDs better, so when someone rolls up and decides to flag on you, you do have a chance at survival.
You have to decide when to use your long CD spells instead of throwing them into a rotation to kill a rabbit. You can’t just chain pull mobs until you’re out of health/mana, sit drink, repeat(if this is the kinda gameplay anyone enjoys I highly recommend Warframe. Super fun game).
Games without owpvp carry no legitimate feeling of risk to me. “Oh no I over pulled and have 10 health left, let me use a CC and run out of leash range”. If you do that in a game with owpvp now you definitely run the chance to get one tapped by any passerby.
While I enjoy a PvE, no owpvp game from time to time, I find it can get rather boring doing the every day filler things around the world. While maybe the dungeons or raids are tons of fun due to legitimate risk if you mess up, out in the open world you tend to be able to turn your brain off, tunnel vision, press your buttons, and just run away if things get sticky. Sometimes I find that enjoyable too. I’m glad this game will not be that though.
- Grouping has more value
- You can actually fight for resources
- PvP as content is dynamic and player driven instead of scripted and repetitive
- and c’mon pushing someone off a mountain never gets boring 🤪
It brings the best both in PvE and PvP. Mmos that seperate those two quickly become boring, unless you are a person that just likes to tick off things to complete (which in those games 90% of it is very easy. All you have to do is show up at the specific location and there, you achieved nothing).
It gives tangible reason for people to seek groups both for lv up and both for domination, the later being guilds. Open world pvp makes you proud at what you csn bring into a group. Is it a good pvp playstyle that will get the group out of a tough situstion? Will you be the tank that everybody wants in their group?
In games without open world pvp all you have is ez quest after ez quest. Try playing that with 4 friends. You wont. You will all be solo far from each other. One of you will want to play on that side of the map, following that lame questline, the other is going to want to get their gear gold and the other is going to want to play on a battleground.
Open world pvp games bring friends and strangers together. You need to both pve and you need to gather/craft as well in order to be string incase of unexpected pvp.
Non open world pvp mmos seperate the population. It's not an mmo rly.
And as for the comment of unfair fight... what is better? Winning one battleground after another after another, until you get bored and then you jump in to an instanced raid?
Or the one time in a day that somebody happened to jump on you and you turned the tables around and you won?
I dont know what mmos you played, but my mmos always had some short of deterrent to killing players that didnt fight back. So the start of the fight was rarely lethal and you always had time to turn around and fight back.
Or mb you arent that good in situations where you need to be calm. Or mb you are playing the wrong class. It takes a bit of getting used to and a bit of knowing that you are ot rdy yet. But you will never be rdy if you always want arenas and battlegrounds.
I abhor being forced to engage in PvP when I'm not in the mood for PvP - which is probably 7 hours out of an 8 hour play session. Winning or losing the battle is mostly irrelevant to me.
I'm a casual challenge player, so... I don't want to be forced into a hardcore encounter when I'm not in the mood for a hardcore encounter. The most recent experience I've had with forced PvP is in Bless Online.
In that game it was fine. I'd let the ganker kill me and would respawn far enough away that I wasn't corpse camped and could just continue doing whatever it was I was doing before I was ganked.
I prefer objective-based PvP rather than direct PvP combat.
Typically, even if I'm playiing some form of capture the flag PvP, I focus on capturing the most flags rather than on who has the most kills.
I also have some characters playing the Carebear Challenge of reaching max level with 0 Kills.
Even in tabletop D&D, I try to use Charisma skills to avoid combat and get as close to 0 Kills as possible.
MMORPGs focus too much on killing stuff - in general.
Any game were you have to always be on guard about getting killed has failed in their anti-PK system and in my opinion should not even have it at all. I only ever felt this way in UO and the solution there was to always keep your distance and kill anyone that got too close. The annoying part was that on one hand I did not want to kill anyone minding their own business and on the other I did not want someone to take advantage of this to then attack me when they thought they had the advantage.
I hate this type of opportunistic gameplay and is why I think that you either have a harsh PK prevention system or have nothing at all, that way there are no surprises and everyone learns to maintain a distance from others.
AoC will have a harsh anti-PK system therefore the open world pvp that I will enjoy is this scenario...
Two or more guilds will gather for a world boss but there is no amicable resolution as to who gets the first shot at it. Someone eventually turns red, now EVERYONE turns on them but the guild they belong to tries to save them and this flags them, now even more join the fight.
More and more keep flagging up with more and more reds showing up, eventually people will start running away in hopes of logging out but others will chase them. You now have small skirmishes everywhere with more and more people who had no interest in the boss joining in to either kill the reds, go against any group they do not like, or just join in on the chaos before going back to whatever they were doing before.
In Ashes, that's going to be obfuscated moreso than in previous games, so, attacking a non-combatant is fairly risky.
Then you take it on some low level victim, you bully him and feel superior.
This is my zoi and I don't want people in it....This is my resource, because I said so... find another spot.
It is also unpredictable... as these are not npc you are dealing with... these people you interact with have feelings and will react accordingly. Unlike an npc on a timer who always walks the same routes, rages at this distance from you..etc.
This also can cause some really good bonds. You and a guild member are getting wrecked... but x guild comes in and saves your bacon... you come to respect that Guild and possibly return the favor when you see their members in peril.
Gankers tend to disrespect the feelings of other players.
What I want is not to be attacked when I'm minding my own business in my home ZOI.
And, yeah, I prefer the predicatbility of knowing I can outrun the tether of an NPC/mob if I'm not in mood for combat.
That said, i don't actually like open world PvP in most games because developers seldom make any effort to actually push on or achieve the ideal experience for most players like me who are seeking a challenge that 'occurs sometimes'.
The unpredictability, the chance to have a strong interaction with another player that is emergent from roles, situation, and goals, and the capacity to change something about either the world, or future interactions, through combat with others, and of course, to improve yourself and them through the encounter, all sound like fun to me.
One of these days I might also get to play an MMO where that is what actually happens in most open world PvP.
Note, I also don't like harsh anti-PvP designs, for the same reason. It diminishes the chances that someone will want to engage in PvP in a situation where it might otherwise be natural or fun. In Absolver, there is no penalty for losing a bout with another player, and that player can instantly revive you (but Absolver is an 'open world fighting game'). In that game, you can just 'fight people you see for fun', you tap them once or twice and see if they want to fight.
I would love an MMO that had a system similar to this, that actually encouraged the INITIAL part of a PvP scenario in such a way that the players who participate would have options. The target can attempt to run and have a real chance at escaping, and the attacker can push everything into a hounding pursuit if they really really want that person dead, but also so that the target can 'accept the fight'with some concept that their opponent wasn't just 'going to win because they attacked first'. Basically, a system that encouraged players to go ahead and use their initial-hit advantage but give the defender more time to try to get something of a fairer fight.
I don't expect Ashes' Corruption System to achieve this based on descriptions so far (outside of general player honor, which shouldn't be factored) but I'll have to see it, and if it works even slightly like this in total and it somehow isn't in the best interest of the attacker to just 'keep dropping the target's health as fast as possible' I expect to enjoy it quite a lot.
Node Governments tax revenue will be very important to the protection and growth of a Node. The way I see it, if I were a neighboring Mayor and I saw my neighbor killing my people for being on their land.
I'll not be very inclined to grant a trade agreement to you. Which in turn lowers your revenue and stumps your growth. Allowing me to eventually overtake you by sheer force of resources and money.
Not to mention if the difference were made up by raising taxes people are not likely to keep that person as mayor long.
It's more organic. There are more variables and unknowns and consequences than instanced pvp.
Ever changing terrain.
You see
That right there is what I don't enjoy about owpvp. I don't mind fighting someone 1v1 for my resources, I rather enjoy those fights in the wild, but having someone twice my level come camp me is not fun game play. Or getting rolled by 10 players at once... How is 10v1 exciting for anyone?
Maybe 5% of those owpvp encounters have felt bad (in that moment) but it always comes back to an overall positive that makes the world feel more alive and fun.
I obviously agree that 10v1 or corpse camping a level 3 dude isnt fulfilling gameplay but those should be pretty damn big outliers in any decent game.
The thrill of constantly being on the look out for an unexpected encounter. Win some loose some but always being on the lookout will make better players. Having an opponent that isn't a scripted mob do some wild random stuff you didn't expect really keeps you on your toes.
I think my experience from Lineage2 was that mainly the game revolved around making friends, grouping up and not leaving Goddard or any town without company. This can go two ways in Ashes, I hope it will not result in solo play being bad but then again, the corruption systems in Lineage2 was different than what it will be in AOC
Dude
Go read the opening post again
I was just agreeing with his statements. There are upsides and downsides to it.
I enjoy the PvP. I usually play tanky characters and love when I get attacked by 2/3 people and remain un-killable until I wear them down and kill them.
I don't enjoy being steamrolled 10v1 or camped by someone way higher level than me because he is trying to make himself feel better.
So I'm all for owpvp.
But I also hope the corruption system can deliver and stave off some of those more outlying unfair fights and negative aspects that just aren't fun
It’s comments like these that make me feel confident they are going to actually try to do their best to make owpvp feel somewhat “fair”. Steven doesn’t come off as someone who is actually a pvper but wants to trick PvE players into playing his blood bath of a game, and he doesn’t come off as a PvE “carebear” who just wants to try to lure in people who want a western game with owpvp.
From my perspective looking in, his comments feel like someone who is trying his best to add a sense of fear and consequence to the world, without it just being a free for all gank fest, and that makes me feel like he is someone who will listen to both sides of the coin, and balance accordingly without totally caving to either side.
I'm not the greatest PvP player but I loved the mechanics in Warhammer online and Guild Wars 2. For sure, both had their weaknesses but they had lot of potential and it was always thrilling to go into the PvP areas. Especially the seamless transition of PvE areas and PvP areas in Warhammer online was really a good concept. Also that these events influenced the PvE content in some way.
I'm interested how they want to put the PvP into the Lore context. As far as I remember there are no factions. Will it be a Server vs Server PvP? Will it be limited to a Guild vs Guild? I am very excited to get more Information in the Future.
We have quite a bit of information regarding the various avenues of PvP, and a lot of your inquiries are answered on the wiki. Instead of typing a book with all the information we have it’s easier to just link the wiki page for you to read at your leisure.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP
Exactly my thoughts
Which is why I'm so hopefull for this game
Also that one time where you managed to turn the table on some higher level gankers and win that epic fight... You'll remember this moment and feel great about that, because that was some serious challenge.
There will also be time you'll be staring at someone that will stare back, and decide not to fight, help each other instead and become friends.
I'm still unsure about the auto rez system of Ashes though. It will have to be tested to see if gankers can cover your potential rez points.
I would still be pissed off that I had to fight them when I wasn't in the mood for PvP combat.
Who wins that encountr is irrelevant.
In Ashes, I also expect to enjoy defending Caravans when I am in the mood for PvP combat. And Siege combat was fun in Alpha One.
Again, objective-based PvP is what I love - winning the objectives; not killing - or even battling - other players.
Not to derail too much, I just didn’t feel like it was enough for it’s own thread and I’ve been thinking about it a bunch lately. Aion had a thing called “kisks”. They were basically portable rez stones that you could craft/buy(idr which it’s been a long time). They would have a limited number of rezzes based on quality (5, 10, etc) in them but you could go out into the world or through a rift and place down a kisk, bind to it and after you died you got the option to rez at the kisk or whatever other town you were bound to.
I feel like in a game like AoC with no fast travel and a huuuge world a system like this could be interesting.
You always had to make sure you went and found a good hiding spot for it or else you’d end up with someone spawn camping your kisk but it added an interesting aspect to the game.