Not enough map space for 1 freehold per account.

Sheeta

Based on A1 being 10% the size of the map, I'd say there would be enough space for maybe 3000-5000 freeholds total. A1 maybe could hold 200-300 freeholds if you don't include the spaces for nodes, dungeons, npc camps, and the terrain being too steep. So even a generous amount would be 300*10 = 3000 total possible freehold locations, if you don't include the underground. That's with freeholds being back to back and no where to farm. People imagine open areas to farm mobs and recourses where you might see 1 or 2 freeholds every minute or so of travel. If this ideal is to be realized and about 10k players are per server, then the size of A1 being 5% of the map wouldn't even be enough space. If you guys don't want that big of a map and want to keep your promise on 1 account being able to place a freehold, it might be best to start a system where you can have channels, have something like Wildstar, and/or place rental plots in the wilderness for freeholds so that when you go out of a city, all you see aren't just freehold after freehold.

bloodprophet

Intended design. It creates friction and change in the world. Plus some people won't want a freehold and prefer in city housing or apartments.

George_Black

Players like me wont bother with a freehold. I will look to make my wealth outside of the activities provided in a freehold or city. Like raw material gathering.
I predict that freeholds will be profitable but boring for the vast majority. Not everybody wants to grow pumpkins and corn.

Sheeta

These are basically what we know so far on the amount and rules:
Freeholds may be placed anywhere within the ZOI of a stage 3 node (or higher) so long as they are not in close proximity to any of the following:
Pathing routes (Roadways).
Dungeons and other points of interest (POIs) regardless of advancement.
Spawn areas.
Other freehold plots.
Hard terrain features, such as mountainsides or cliffs.

Freehold plots will require a certificate from the parent node in order to place the plot.
The current design allows placement of freeholds anywhere in the ZOI of the node that the certificate was purchased from, including its vassal nodes. This may change as the result of testing.
The more advanced a node is, the more freeholds can be built within its ZOI.

With this, we know that there will be a limited number of people using freeholds, but I like to prepare for the worse. I was giving possible node locations via map size. If we limit the availability of freeholds via certificates and node sizes, I'd at least want a bigger map to increase the max freeholds per area. If you played A1, the distance between each node wasn't that big at all. Just thinking about the limitations of the certificates and not being close to various things, I'd estimate that Stage 3 might have anywhere from 10-20 freeholds. Lets say 10 freeholds per stage 3 node because: "There were 9 node locations in Alpha-1. Normally there would be 18-20 nodes in the same area." - https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nodes

Even if we let all 103 nodes have freeholds, that's only 1030 freeholds possible allowed. A player can own 1 apartment, house, and freehold all at the same time. So, since 1 out of 10 players can own a freehold, there will be conflict over it. This could result in wars, but it will leave out casual players who just want to see and build their own thing.

Sheeta

George_Black wrote: »

Players like me wont bother with a freehold. I will look to make my wealth outside of the activities provided in a freehold or city. Like raw material gathering.
I predict that freeholds will be profitable but boring for the vast majority. Not everybody wants to grow pumpkins and corn.

It's not just about growing things. It could be a business like a tavern, a workshop if you're a crafter, an animal farm to cross breed, or for you it would be a safe storage/pitstop between where you are gathering and to the city.

ThatGuyPowers

for me I will most likely not use a freehold my main goal is to become a citizen of a coastal or island node I think it will heavy rely on what profession the player chooses to go down and not everyone will want or need one

Sheeta

Eh..I guess I just wanted my exploration to feel like exploring the dangerous parts of the world rather than taking a stroll in high-end rich neighborhoods. A1 being 10% of the map was a big shocker for me and after revising how freeholds are suppose to work, even more so.

George_Black

Nothing is finished yet. Let's see how it all plays out.

CROW3

Fuzzy math. Let’s see where it goes.

arsnn

I reach a similar conclusion.
480km² divided by 0.05 km² = 96000 freeholds that could be placed if you would cluster the entire map with it.
But that wont be the case...

Half of the map will have unsuitable terrain with big obstrutions like, nodes, starter towns, ocean, lakes, mountains and has an inefficient/organic layout where its hard to place a squared object
--> 43000 freeholds left.
I dont think there is much to room to calculate better here.

Then i´d assume 80 % of whats left will be used for content like mobs, dungeons, world bosses,POI expanding roads ---> 8600 freeholds.
Wiggle room for free form placement and freehold spacing (that mostly cant be used for content) may even depress that number to around ---> 5k

Here i might be off with the my assumptions... assuming they only use like 60% of the space for content that´s --->10k .
This would feel way off for me personally though, i´d much rather assume the space for content is bigger than 80%.


And game is supposed to expand to around 50 k accounts per server.
This is why i think freeholds may end up being more of a shared asset, rather than a personal one.

3Snap

Didn't they say 10k server population? 15k to cover ppl dropping off.

At this stage we do not have numbers on how many different servers will exist for different regions. We've said in the past 8-10,000 concurrent users per server is what we'd like to aim for. Obviously, the number of servers that exist in a region are going to be dependent on the population that's playing.[13] – Steven Sharif

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Servers#:~:text=Server population,-Population limits will&text=Around 8-10k concurrent users,50,000 registered accounts per server.

So if that's 8600 freeholds then there'll be enough freeholds for 86% of the server

arsnn

3Snap wrote: »

Didn't they say 10k server population? 15k to cover ppl dropping off.

At this stage we do not have numbers on how many different servers will exist for different regions. We've said in the past 8-10,000 concurrent users per server is what we'd like to aim for. Obviously, the number of servers that exist in a region are going to be dependent on the population that's playing.[13] – Steven Sharif

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Servers#:~:text=Server population,-Population limits will&text=Around 8-10k concurrent users,50,000 registered accounts per server.

So if that's 8600 freeholds then there'll be enough freeholds for 86% of the server

I mean even the url you posted says „Around 8-10k concurrent users, 50,0000 registered accounts per server.“

Taleof2Cities

Just based on the replies in this thread, less than 86% of forum-goers are interested in a freehold.

I think the OP should relax.

Marcet

So what, not everyone will have a freehold, its gonna be exclusive and if you work hard maybe you'll get one. Is there not some kind of infinite apartment place for the others too??
And what you say about creating wars and disputes over freeholds or territory, that's good, basicly what the game wants to accomplish.

arsnn

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Just based on the replies in this thread, less than 86% of forum-goers are interested in a freehold.

I think the OP should relax.

Thats an interesting conclusion.
I dont think this thread’s responses support that all, nor is the thread representative anyway.

Here is a counter point:
I think the semi passive income that freeholds are gonna provide will be too tempting too pass simply pass up.
Its gonna be the cornerstone for many economic activities and even gameplay loops.

Sheeta

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Just based on the replies in this thread, less than 86% of forum-goers are interested in a freehold.

I think the OP should relax.

The availability of freeholds for each player was a side concern based off of the main concern. My main concern was if exploring the wilderness will feel like wilderness or just a neighborhood.

Lets compare it to something we're seen recently, the weather tech demo video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhvQEPuexjg). While watching this video, you'll likely see anywhere from 2 to maybe 10 freeholds during his stroll based off how far the freeholds will render, like the boats in the background. 10 says to me rich suburbs, 2 says rural, and 1-0 means wilderness.

My concern that the map is not big enough to easily find wilderness late in the game still hold due to: "The current design allows placement of freeholds anywhere in the ZOI of the node that the certificate was purchased from, including its vassal nodes. This may change as the result of testing." If they lower the availability so that vassal nodes can not allow freeholds, then the side concern of mine would come into play more.

In the end, one side or another would be disappointed. To alleviate it, I suggested the map to be bigger or put in systems to make both sides happy. It's not that I'd hate the game if they didn't. I'm only bringing up a problem that may arise in the future.

sternzy

Could have swore the topic came up in a video somewhere and something was mentioned about a sort of cloud based freehold where your freehold wouldn't be physicalized in the open game world but basically instanced. Do I remember wrong? Maybe I'm thinking of a different game?

unknownsystemerror

sternzy wrote: »

Could have swore the topic came up in a video somewhere and something was mentioned about a sort of cloud based freehold where your freehold wouldn't be physicalized in the open game world but basically instanced. Do I remember wrong? Maybe I'm thinking of a different game?

Freeholds have been meant to be persistent in the open world. (No instancing) Node settlement apartments are instanced. With that said, many things in development may change. Saying "It will be like this, cause I think so!" is all well and good. But all it takes is for Steven to say something new in the next livestream, and all the pearl clutching and REEEE over this issue or that changes.

Foffer

i just hope there will be wilderness left over and not houses everywhere

TheDarkSorcerer

I would prefer to have housing other than nodes to be instanced. But that's just me.

Voxtrium

It doesn't make sense for IS to let us build a house in the middle of a area they built for farming EXP or resources, that logic alone indicates they will likely give people plenty of wilderness feel and I highly doubt that even 50% of the population will want a freehold. When talking about what might happen you have to give IS the benefit of the doubt, they are clearing not a bunch of trolls developing this game, lets give them the benefit of the doubt that they won't design the game to have freeholds every quarter mile.

arsnn

Voxtrium wrote: »

It doesn't make sense for IS to let us build a house in the middle of a area they built for farming EXP or resources, that logic alone indicates they will likely give people plenty of wilderness feel and I highly doubt that even 50% of the population will want a freehold. When talking about what might happen you have to give IS the benefit of the doubt, they are clearing not a bunch of trolls developing this game, lets give them the benefit of the doubt that they won't design the game to have freeholds every quarter mile.

The issue is that from the things we know there seems to be a conflict. The numbers dont really add up

For open area to exist:
-Either freeholds are gonna be very scarce and there is a lot of competition/conflict around them
-Or freeholds become a shared asset, many people will enjoy as group content
-Or we can cluster freeholds effectively. Which seems not to be the case atm, since freeholds are supposed to be distantant from each other
-Or all of those cases apply to some extent

One thing that i also want to point out, is that the quantity of freeholds is supposed to grow with the node´s level.
Which means big nodes, with more people and more demand for content have less space for "wild areas" to exist. Maybe vassal nodes take over the part of "wild areas" and high level nodes become essentially player hubs + a high level dungeon?

Feloki

Ultima Online had non-instanced housing, there were houses everywhere kinda cool, larger footprints = larger costs. But i wouldn't wish that for Ashes, some space for housing around nodes creating its own economy similar to how Albion Online does it would be great, if you're not willing to pay an upkeep/fullfill the requirements then instanced housing is available for you.

I'd hope they would include a setting to toggle building skins however, having a mish mash of different structures would ruin immersion. The mount skins are already starting to get a bit extreme.

Noaani

arsnn wrote: »

The issue is that from the things we know there seems to be a conflict. The numbers dont really add up

For open area to exist:
-Either freeholds are gonna be very scarce and there is a lot of competition/conflict around them
-Or freeholds become a shared asset, many people will enjoy as group content
-Or we can cluster freeholds effectively. Which seems not to be the case atm, since freeholds are supposed to be distantant from each other
-Or all of those cases apply to some extent

I think the idea is that all of these apply to some extent - except for clustering.

The idea absolutely is for players to fight over them to a degree. Steven has talked about real estate in game having value, so a freehold needs to have actual value, meaning there needs to be an amount of scarcity.

unknownsystemerror

All of this is trying to base off of numbers you don't know. Scarcity of freeholds is easily controlled by Intrepid. We know that the cost goes up for every license sold in a node for the permission to place. Those that buy early get the best deal, those that come later have to pay. Just like citizenship, at a certain point you will reach a cap for a particular node, because the cost will just be prohibitive vs worth. No one knows the individual node sizes, available land, placement restrictions, and a host of other issues. If they increase the map size, all your presumptions are thrown out. We can't even get them to answer our cosmetic questions on freeholds. Until they give more information, all of this is moot.

Tragnar

There needs to be ingame discouragement for owning freeholds and housing in general. There should be some period of time for npcs to reclaim the housing/freeholds - preferably those would dismantle the housing - just to avoid ghosttowns of people that lost interest in their housing or stopped playing entirely

Sheeta

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

No one knows the individual node sizes, available land, placement restrictions, and a host of other issues. If they increase the map size, all your presumptions are thrown out. We can't even get them to answer our cosmetic questions on freeholds. Until they give more information, all of this is moot.

What we know:
(Freeholds are approximately half an acre in size.
The footprint of a freehold does not change with node progression.
Expansions and upgrades become available as node progression allows.

Freeholds may be placed anywhere within the ZOI of a stage 3 node (or higher) so long as they are not in close proximity to any of the following:

Pathing routes (Roadways).
Dungeons and other points of interest (POIs) regardless of advancement.
Spawn areas.
Other freehold plots.
Hard terrain features, such as mountainsides or cliffs.) - https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Freeholds

(480 km2 (square kilometers) is the approximate world size at launch. This includes water and land content.

An additional 100 km2 may be taken up by the Underrealm.

There will be 103 regular node locations at launch with 15 additional castle nodes (5 castles x 3 castle nodes each) for a total of 118 nodes.

There were 9 node locations in Alpha-1.
Normally there would be 18-20 nodes in the same area.

The Alpha-1 map was approximately 70 km2 of playable area.
Traversing the width of the zone (10 km) on a mount would take about 30 minutes.) - https://ashesofcreation.wiki/World_size

So with this information, we can ROUGHLY estimate " individual node sizes, available land, placement restrictions, and a host of other issues". It's an informed estimate based off the information they have provided AND if you played A1. For goodness sake, I got from 1 to max level which doing the main story in A1 in 3-4 hours because I wanted to see how fast someone could speed run. If you played A1, you'd know the main story took you all through the map. This was the main reason why I was shocked to hear the size of A1 compared to the final map they plan. Small. I swear I would say it feels like it's 3/4 the size of vanilla WoW, and I'm including the underground.

If you played A1 long enough, you can understand the size of the node area if you double the amount of nodes in the playable A1 area. If you can't, then I can only say you didn't play much or....you didn't have a good feel of A1? No idea what else I can say on that one. *shrugs* Same with " available land" and "placement restrictions", based on what you saw in A1, you can just times that by 10 and there you go. I knew every mob camp, dungeon, ruins, quest npc camps, ect to imagine the whole A1 experience with freeholds put in with the restrictions above. Why do you think I'm even taking the time to write this to inform others of probable problems? Before they start and/or finish the map, from my experience and estimates, it is best to increase the map size to alleviate future problems like these.

TLDR: YES, I WANT the map size to increase so that my presumptions are thrown out. That's the point.

unknownsystemerror

You can quote the wiki back at me all day. Doesn't mean a thing. Steven changes stuff on a whim and nothing is set in stone. I have participated in every phase of testing of Ashes so far, from Alpha 0 on. And what I am telling you is that you are trying to make fetch happen. There may be changes to housing incoming and there may be changes to map size and how nodes function. They gave a great hint about the latter in the last livestream.
Edit: Whim is not fair, he changes stuff as development dictates.

Sheeta

I'm not trying to make anything specific happen other than maybe to hope for the map size to increase, as it is even in the title of this very forum post. Of course there may be changes in the future. That is the point of this very post, to help make better informed decisions/changes. I don't get your posts as all I'm really hearing is that you want to shoot me down due to your belief things will be better regardless. Isn't that the definition of copium or is it hopium?

unknownsystemerror

Maybe it is snowflaking or white knighting? Throw another buzzword.

Sheeta

Nah, I'm good. I was only pointing out that we were going nowhere productive with this. Me informing you about the copium thing was in hope that you may realize what you were doing. The first step in becoming a better person is self-reflection. I hope for the best. o7