What proof, do you have of ANY decent mmorpg combat system working in the favour of "RP", in real time what system other than turn based is completely biased in favour of maintaining "something" that people have completely different standards and expectations of???
Why would I be trying to prove "completely biased"???
i mean even BDO has aim assitance, some purists go as far as not considering BDO truly action because of that, the thing is, the more forgiving you make action combat, the more you move it towards being more similar to tab-target combat and the more viable you make it for larger PvE encounters.
I dont cosider aim assist to lean towards or be tab targeting in any way.
But tab targeting is just aim assist. You still need to be facing your target, you just have an assist in that your ability will go after who you have targeted.
i mean even BDO has aim assitance, some purists go as far as not considering BDO truly action because of that, the thing is, the more forgiving you make action combat, the more you move it towards being more similar to tab-target combat and the more viable you make it for larger PvE encounters.
I dont cosider aim assist to lean towards or be tab targeting in any way.
But tab targeting is just aim assist. You still need to be facing your target, you just have an assist in that your ability will go after who you have targeted.
Lol dont try this, they're not the same in any way. With Tab targeting your attacks are guaranteed to line up with your target, wether it becomes a "hit" or a "miss" is down to luck; tab targeting is essentially all about auto aim with the outcome being decided through RNG. With aim assist I need to place the cross at my target, if I line it up right my attack actually hits the target and it's not down to luck; the help from aim assist is majorly through the visual guidance of the cross, it doesn't(usually) automatically aim at my target.
Dont take this as me shitting on tab targeting, it can be fun to me at times. I just find it very misleading to imply it's the same thing as aim assist.
i mean even BDO has aim assitance, some purists go as far as not considering BDO truly action because of that, the thing is, the more forgiving you make action combat, the more you move it towards being more similar to tab-target combat and the more viable you make it for larger PvE encounters.
I dont cosider aim assist to lean towards or be tab targeting in any way.
But tab targeting is just aim assist. You still need to be facing your target, you just have an assist in that your ability will go after who you have targeted.
Lol dont try this, they're not the same in any way. With Tab targeting your attacks are guaranteed to line up with your target, wether it becomes a "hit" or a "miss" is down to luck; tab targeting is essentially all about auto aim with the outcome being decided through RNG. With aim assist I need to place the cross at my target, if I line it up right my attack actually hits the target and it's not down to luck; the help from aim assist is majorly through the visual guidance of the cross, it doesn't(usually) automatically aim at my target.
Dont take this as me shitting on tab targeting, it can be fun to me at times. I just find it very misleading to imply it's the same thing as aim assist.
Outcome in tab target is more about how you have decided to build your character than it is about RNG. I have yet to play a tab target game where luck is much of a factor at all - yet it is often a factor in fast paced action combat (though not much of a factor is slower paced action combat.
With auto assist you need to aim your crosshair near your target, not at it. A super hyped up version of this is that you need to be facing your target.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
i mean even BDO has aim assitance, some purists go as far as not considering BDO truly action because of that, the thing is, the more forgiving you make action combat, the more you move it towards being more similar to tab-target combat and the more viable you make it for larger PvE encounters.
I dont cosider aim assist to lean towards or be tab targeting in any way.
But tab targeting is just aim assist. You still need to be facing your target, you just have an assist in that your ability will go after who you have targeted.
Lol dont try this, they're not the same in any way. With Tab targeting your attacks are guaranteed to line up with your target, wether it becomes a "hit" or a "miss" is down to luck; tab targeting is essentially all about auto aim with the outcome being decided through RNG. With aim assist I need to place the cross at my target, if I line it up right my attack actually hits the target and it's not down to luck; the help from aim assist is majorly through the visual guidance of the cross, it doesn't(usually) automatically aim at my target.
Dont take this as me shitting on tab targeting, it can be fun to me at times. I just find it very misleading to imply it's the same thing as aim assist.
Outcome in tab target is more about how you have decided to build your character than it is about RNG. I have yet to play a tab target game where luck is much of a factor at all - yet it is often a factor in fast paced action combat (though not much of a factor is slower paced action combat.
With auto assist you need to aim your crosshair near your target, not at it. A super hyped up version of this is that you need to be facing your target.
Luck is what decides if your skill hits or not, which is what they are talking about. Build impacts both systems.
The speed of combat doesn't increase how much luck is involved, it only increases the rate the player has to make decisions. Yes, this increases the chances someone will mess up but that chance is dependent on the player and isn't being calculated by the system. In tab systems, the outcome of a skill is decided by comparing stats of the characters involved and the system generates a random number to decide what happens.
If you see aim assist as being the same as tab then what's the argument? If you like tab and aim assist is the same thing to you then you should like a free aim system that uses aim assist.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2022
There is some RNG involved, but it's mostly character build - Passive Skills/Active Skills/Augments/Gear Stats.
I don't think the argument is that tab target is the same as aim assist, rather it's an exaggerated form of aim assist.
Luck is what decides if your skill hits or not, which is what they are talking about. Build impacts both systems.
Luck is what makes a no-look headshot hit, or other similar things. Sure, there may be an amount of skill involved, but there is still a lot of luck.
Preparation is what makes your ability land in a tab target game. Sure, there may be an RNG factor in there somewhere, but I have literally never seen an RNG situation in combat in a tab target game which didn't have AT LEAST two factors by which it is influenced, and that influence operates to a greater extent than the RNG. Most such situations where RNG is a factor could have up to 6 or 7 factors that influence it, basically relegating any notion of luck to some sort of fantasy or pre-conceived notion that people have.
Thus, from my perspective, there is as much if not more luck in fast paced action games than there is in tab games.
Preparation is what makes your ability land in a tab target game. Sure, there may be an RNG factor in there somewhere, but I have literally never seen an RNG situation in combat in a tab target game which didn't have AT LEAST two factors by which it is influenced, and that influence operates to a greater extent than the RNG. Most such situations where RNG is a factor could have up to 6 or 7 factors that influence it, basically relegating any notion of luck to some sort of fantasy or pre-conceived notion that people have.
Here's a skill from L2 . It has a base 5% chance to crit on strike. Crits vary from x2 to x8 (iirc). You can only use this skill on a target that has a specific debuff on them which has somewhere around 20-30% chance of successfully debuffing the target.
This is a powerful skill, so the dmg range between x2 and x8 is quite big, so the rng can sometimes decide whether you kill your target or not. I've had several pvp encounters where I won because of getting a lucky x8 or where I lost because I got an unlucky x2 (that is if I even managed to debuff the target, cause I've lost matchups because of failed debuff too).
So here's 2 rng factors that can decide whether you win or lose.
Preparation is what makes your ability land in a tab target game. Sure, there may be an RNG factor in there somewhere, but I have literally never seen an RNG situation in combat in a tab target game which didn't have AT LEAST two factors by which it is influenced, and that influence operates to a greater extent than the RNG. Most such situations where RNG is a factor could have up to 6 or 7 factors that influence it, basically relegating any notion of luck to some sort of fantasy or pre-conceived notion that people have.
Here's a skill from L2 . It has a base 5% chance to crit on strike. Crits vary from x2 to x8 (iirc). You can only use this skill on a target that has a specific debuff on them which has somewhere around 20-30% chance of successfully debuffing the target.
This is a powerful skill, so the dmg range between x2 and x8 is quite big, so the rng can sometimes decide whether you kill your target or not. I've had several pvp encounters where I won because of getting a lucky x8 or where I lost because I got an unlucky x2 (that is if I even managed to debuff the target, cause I've lost matchups because of failed debuff too).
So here's 2 rng factors that can decide whether you win or lose.
Sounds like a shit combat system.
But then, we both already knew that.
Most games have a range in damage of *perhaps* double between the listed minimum and maximum (an increase of 25 - 50% is fairly normal though). However, this value can be affected by the base stats of the caster (intelligence, for example), buy effects such as additional spell damage, by additional damage procs on the caster (which themselves can have all of the variables I am talking here, except for procs, as procs can't proc in most games). Then there are things like debuffs on mobs to lower the mobs resistance to the specific damage type (say, fire), the generic damage type (say, elemental), to the class of damage (spell), or to all damage. Then you have debuffs that just flat out increase the damage the target takes, you have factors such as attacking from behind, or attacking while prone.
There are more variables that some games apply - I'm sure you get the picture though.
All up, perhaps 5-10% of a spells potential maximum damage in a good combat system is RNG, 40-45% is the spell itself, and the remaining 50% is preparedness.
L2 was a good PvP game because people weren't backing down from PvP like they do in many MMO's these days.
And you know why they did? Because class design RPS system worked well. Because gear was close to each other not only in stat values, but even in additional horizontal ones too. And because some rng here and there brought the lower lvled player and higher lvled player closer to each other when it came to their power lvls.
All of those things led to the thought process of "I might have a chance to beat this guy, so why da hell should I not at least try?"
And I hope AoC's class design leads to the same thoughts in people, on top of the "I'll lose half of the stuff, so I'd better fight back" thinking.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Luck is what decides if your skill hits or not, which is what they are talking about. Build impacts both systems.
Luck is what makes a no-look headshot hit, or other similar things. Sure, there may be an amount of skill involved, but there is still a lot of luck.
Preparation is what makes your ability land in a tab target game. Sure, there may be an RNG factor in there somewhere, but I have literally never seen an RNG situation in combat in a tab target game which didn't have AT LEAST two factors by which it is influenced, and that influence operates to a greater extent than the RNG. Most such situations where RNG is a factor could have up to 6 or 7 factors that influence it, basically relegating any notion of luck to some sort of fantasy or pre-conceived notion that people have.
Thus, from my perspective, there is as much if not more luck in fast paced action games than there is in tab games.
No-look headshots aren't the only thing you do in a game that requires aiming, they aren't even a thing in the games that have been mentioned in this thread. Even if you consider a no-look headshot luck, it is a skill players can practice and get better at.
No one is arguing that RNG is the only thing that effects the outcome of the engagement but it does impact the outcome of an ability, which is what some don't like. In a "fast paced" action game, if you miss an ability, you missed it because you, the player, didn't execute it right. In a tab game, that is taken out of your hands and decided by a dice roll, which is what some people don't like and why they say it's dependent on luck.
In a fast paced action game, outcome is determined by player's ability. In a tab game, RNG is used to determine outcome, which is luck since the outcome of that roll is something you can't impact. Yes, you can change your build to augment what you consider a success but you have no impact on the roll itself.
L2 was a good PvP game because people weren't backing down from PvP like they do in many MMO's these days.
And you know why they did? Because class design RPS system worked well. Because gear was close to each other not only in stat values, but even in additional horizontal ones too. And because some rng here and there brought the lower lvled player and higher lvled player closer to each other when it came to their power lvls.
All of those things led to the thought process of "I might have a chance to beat this guy, so why da hell should I not at least try?"
And I hope AoC's class design leads to the same thoughts in people, on top of the "I'll lose half of the stuff, so I'd better fight back" thinking.
But this thought process will also result in the thought of "why bother with any of that PvE content? the pitiful improvements in gear from it are not worth the time and effort me and my guild would need to put in".
And this is the crux of the issue - you simply can not have both. You either have a game with a healthy PvE progression, or you have a game where there is little gear gap for PvP.
There is literally no middle ground here - which again is why I have said for years that this game is a conglomeration of contradictions.
Don't forget, Intrepid want this game to have real PvE - that is as important to this game as real PvP is. L2 did not have real PvE.
Yeah, just not the best PvP combat - as I have said to you before.
L2 was a good PvP game because people weren't backing down from PvP like they do in many MMO's these days.
waaaaat is that summary about?
People geninuely needed other to succeed, is, a suitable summary. "I ain't backing down", I've known many 100's of people from that game that aren't ego'ing or oozing the pvp "bitchness" you think they do. PvP is just part of the parcel of a real ow game and L2 incorperated that so naturally, they had their own penalty/corruption system and a growing and interesting guild system.
L2 was made before WoW's release, it's nothing impressive but if you keep staring at something like "combat fluidity" alone which you keep on raving about like an addict you won't see the scope of the system at all.
Just statement after statement from you, it's just straight out immature and disrespectful to other projects work and other peoples long term experiences, especially when they're trying their best to explain to you the systems involved.
But this thought process will also result in the thought of "why bother with any of that PvE content? the pitiful improvements in gear from it are not worth the time and effort me and my guild would need to put in".
And this is the crux of the issue - you simply can not have both. You either have a game with a healthy PvE progression, or you have a game where there is little gear gap for PvP.
There is literally no middle ground here - which again is why I have said for years that this game is a conglomeration of contradictions.
Don't forget, Intrepid want this game to have real PvE - that is as important to this game as real PvP is. L2 did not have real PvE.
At the end of the day any pve is just grind. Be it simplistic grind of L2 or the grind where you bash your head against a difficult boss for several hours/days/weeks until you beat it and get the reward. And you know what each and every pvper with low gear gap in L2 did? Grinded mobs for fucking months. Non-stop. Just grind grind grind. Now replace that mob grind with them trying to beat a boss and you'll have yourself a happy little Ashes.
Oh also, people grinded mobs for the new gear even though they knew that the gear itself won't suddenly make them invulnerable. Yes, they'll be stronger, but not by much. And still they were super happy if they dropped a whole piece of gear or if the finally gathered the 0.5% chance recipe that they needed.
Yeah, just not the best PvP combat - as I have said to you before.
L2 was a good PvP game because people weren't backing down from PvP like they do in many MMO's these days.
waaaaat is that summary about?
People geninuely needed other to succeed, is, a suitable summary. "I ain't backing down", I've known many 100's of people from that game that aren't ego'ing or oozing the pvp "bitchness" you think they do. PvP is just part of the parcel of a real ow game and L2 incorperated that so naturally, they had their own penalty/corruption system and a growing and interesting guild system.
L2 was made before WoW's release, it's nothing impressive but if you keep staring at something like "combat fluidity" alone which you keep on raving about like an addict you won't see the scope of the system at all.
Just statement after statement from you, it's just straight out immature and disrespectful to other projects work and other peoples long term experiences, especially when they're trying their best to explain to you the systems involved.
What?
Are you high?
I think I have mentioned combat fluidity once on these forums, and it was me saying that WoW is probably the best at it in regards to tab target MMO's. I have not raved on about it at all, because it is not an overly important thing to me (fluidity generally means you don't have many options, I prefer options).
Yeah, L2 incorporated PvP well, that is why I said it was good in terms of PvP due to people in LK2 not backing down like the do in other games. It's combat system was still pretty shit though.
The first is PvE only - but the games hate mechanics were out of date when the game launched. There is literally no proximity or orientation mechanic involved at all, among other things that games of the time were doing.
Second, point and click moving. Perfectly fine when not in combat, shit for in combat.
There is literally no proximity or orientation mechanic involved at all, among other things that games of the time were doing.
Here at the timestamp, is that not an orientation mechanic? Or do you mean smth else? Classes have those kinds of abilities too.
And is proximity smth like "you get hit for 100 if you're 5 meters away from the attacker, but you get hit for 50 if you're 10m away?" They added a reverse of that for archers in a later update, but yeah, outside of that there's not really any proximity play.
Second, point and click moving. Perfectly fine when not in combat, shit for in combat.
Yeah, I can definitely see how people could dislike it. Though for me it was more about fast skill usage and reaction times, because ttk was really short and cast speeds really fast (and no gcd) so you didn't really have time to dance around the place with your WASD.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
L2 was a good PvP game because people weren't backing down from PvP like they do in many MMO's these days.
And you know why they did? Because class design RPS system worked well. Because gear was close to each other not only in stat values, but even in additional horizontal ones too. And because some rng here and there brought the lower lvled player and higher lvled player closer to each other when it came to their power lvls.
All of those things led to the thought process of "I might have a chance to beat this guy, so why da hell should I not at least try?"
And I hope AoC's class design leads to the same thoughts in people, on top of the "I'll lose half of the stuff, so I'd better fight back" thinking.
But this thought process will also result in the thought of "why bother with any of that PvE content? the pitiful improvements in gear from it are not worth the time and effort me and my guild would need to put in".
And this is the crux of the issue - you simply can not have both. You either have a game with a healthy PvE progression, or you have a game where there is little gear gap for PvP.
There is literally no middle ground here - which again is why I have said for years that this game is a conglomeration of contradictions.
Don't forget, Intrepid want this game to have real PvE - that is as important to this game as real PvP is. L2 did not have real PvE.
Gear does not improve the quality of a PvE activity based on the amount of power rewarded, it's just an incentive to do it. It's not like you can take a boring boss fight, improve the drops, and suddenly the boss is fun.
People also don't play a game because of how powerful the gear rewards are. It's not like them doubling the stats on the gear in the current wow raids would increase the sub count.
GW2 and ESO both don't have high gear scaling but people still do the content. The legendary gear in GW2 isn't even a vertical improvement over the previous item rarity, it just gives the player the convenience of allowing them to swap stats on the fly. ESO does a lot with horizontal progression through its set effects which gives more build options. It's also becoming more common now for people to be motivated by things like cosmetics and achievements instead of power.
I don't think people need extreme jumps in power to incentivize them to do content and most definitely don't think it has any effect on how "real" the PvE is.
@Noaani L2 did have real PvE, it had really hard PvE you could never solo and you pretty much always needed the trinity group to tackle and for the legendary bosses around the world you needed 6+ 9 man trinity parties.
The game was released in 2003, what did you want back then??
It's a bit hard to give distinctions on what is "real", I say a "real" mmo to define a game that isn't mostly a solo player gameplay experience + party with a handful of randomers to complete 75% or more of the game. Ofc you, you always focus too heavily the supposed "RPG" element, which is an extremely vague term but as long as people come through character creator and make their own name, then it is one (which means the whole "isn't an mmorpg" is a defensive argument used by the immature. change my mind).
L2 did have real PvE, it had really hard PvE you could never solo and you pretty much always needed the trinity group to tackle and for the legendary bosses around the world you needed 6+ 9 man trinity parties.
The game was released in 2003, what did you want back then??
Noaani wants EVERQUEST!
But outside of that L2 really didn't have much of PvE. You just stood in one place and unloaded onto the boss/mob. There weren't any complex mechanics or intricate combat designs for mobs. Pretty much all bosses were just thiccque dmg piñatas.
What if ashes became one of those auto combat games where you just hit the fight button.... maybe that is the true hybrid action/tab system everyone is waiting for
What if ashes became one of those auto combat games where you just hit the fight button.... maybe that is the true hybrid action/tab system everyone is waiting for
Spreadsheet PvP only!
Auto-fight button so you can solo mobs while looking at your spreadsheets!
Open the game up to people who aren't programmers able to have their spreadsheets auto-scroll, update, and respond to voice commands. Bring spreadsheet gaming to the PEOPLE!
What if ashes became one of those auto combat games where you just hit the fight button.... maybe that is the true hybrid action/tab system everyone is waiting for
there is auto play, it's called playing then luck into gear and then it's "playing my ass for me" that you're hoping for ;P
But outside of that L2 really didn't have much of PvE. You just stood in one place and unloaded onto the boss/mob. There weren't any complex mechanics or intricate combat designs for mobs. Pretty much all bosses were just thiccque dmg piñatas.
.......
It still needed trinity parties, you didn't need to shout about how lame enemies were god damn dude! You know as well as I do their are people with monocles in this forum sipping on their cups of tea, stroking their moustaches and defining what a true intellectual PvE experience is.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It still needed trinity parties, you didn't need to shout about how lame enemies were god damn dude! You know as well as I do their are people with monocles in this forum sipping on their cups of tea, stroking their moustaches and defining what a true intellectual PvE experience is.
Comments
Lol dont try this, they're not the same in any way. With Tab targeting your attacks are guaranteed to line up with your target, wether it becomes a "hit" or a "miss" is down to luck; tab targeting is essentially all about auto aim with the outcome being decided through RNG. With aim assist I need to place the cross at my target, if I line it up right my attack actually hits the target and it's not down to luck; the help from aim assist is majorly through the visual guidance of the cross, it doesn't(usually) automatically aim at my target.
Dont take this as me shitting on tab targeting, it can be fun to me at times. I just find it very misleading to imply it's the same thing as aim assist.
Outcome in tab target is more about how you have decided to build your character than it is about RNG. I have yet to play a tab target game where luck is much of a factor at all - yet it is often a factor in fast paced action combat (though not much of a factor is slower paced action combat.
With auto assist you need to aim your crosshair near your target, not at it. A super hyped up version of this is that you need to be facing your target.
Luck is what decides if your skill hits or not, which is what they are talking about. Build impacts both systems.
The speed of combat doesn't increase how much luck is involved, it only increases the rate the player has to make decisions. Yes, this increases the chances someone will mess up but that chance is dependent on the player and isn't being calculated by the system. In tab systems, the outcome of a skill is decided by comparing stats of the characters involved and the system generates a random number to decide what happens.
If you see aim assist as being the same as tab then what's the argument? If you like tab and aim assist is the same thing to you then you should like a free aim system that uses aim assist.
I don't think the argument is that tab target is the same as aim assist, rather it's an exaggerated form of aim assist.
Preparation is what makes your ability land in a tab target game. Sure, there may be an RNG factor in there somewhere, but I have literally never seen an RNG situation in combat in a tab target game which didn't have AT LEAST two factors by which it is influenced, and that influence operates to a greater extent than the RNG. Most such situations where RNG is a factor could have up to 6 or 7 factors that influence it, basically relegating any notion of luck to some sort of fantasy or pre-conceived notion that people have.
Thus, from my perspective, there is as much if not more luck in fast paced action games than there is in tab games.
This is a powerful skill, so the dmg range between x2 and x8 is quite big, so the rng can sometimes decide whether you kill your target or not. I've had several pvp encounters where I won because of getting a lucky x8 or where I lost because I got an unlucky x2 (that is if I even managed to debuff the target, cause I've lost matchups because of failed debuff too).
So here's 2 rng factors that can decide whether you win or lose.
Sounds like a shit combat system.
But then, we both already knew that.
Most games have a range in damage of *perhaps* double between the listed minimum and maximum (an increase of 25 - 50% is fairly normal though). However, this value can be affected by the base stats of the caster (intelligence, for example), buy effects such as additional spell damage, by additional damage procs on the caster (which themselves can have all of the variables I am talking here, except for procs, as procs can't proc in most games). Then there are things like debuffs on mobs to lower the mobs resistance to the specific damage type (say, fire), the generic damage type (say, elemental), to the class of damage (spell), or to all damage. Then you have debuffs that just flat out increase the damage the target takes, you have factors such as attacking from behind, or attacking while prone.
There are more variables that some games apply - I'm sure you get the picture though.
All up, perhaps 5-10% of a spells potential maximum damage in a good combat system is RNG, 40-45% is the spell itself, and the remaining 50% is preparedness.
It led to the best meaningful PvP concept in the genre but I know what you mean
Yeah, just not the best PvP combat - as I have said to you before.
L2 was a good PvP game because people weren't backing down from PvP like they do in many MMO's these days.
Read the edited post above for context on a good combat system in regards to RNG.
All of those things led to the thought process of "I might have a chance to beat this guy, so why da hell should I not at least try?"
And I hope AoC's class design leads to the same thoughts in people, on top of the "I'll lose half of the stuff, so I'd better fight back" thinking.
No-look headshots aren't the only thing you do in a game that requires aiming, they aren't even a thing in the games that have been mentioned in this thread. Even if you consider a no-look headshot luck, it is a skill players can practice and get better at.
No one is arguing that RNG is the only thing that effects the outcome of the engagement but it does impact the outcome of an ability, which is what some don't like. In a "fast paced" action game, if you miss an ability, you missed it because you, the player, didn't execute it right. In a tab game, that is taken out of your hands and decided by a dice roll, which is what some people don't like and why they say it's dependent on luck.
In a fast paced action game, outcome is determined by player's ability. In a tab game, RNG is used to determine outcome, which is luck since the outcome of that roll is something you can't impact. Yes, you can change your build to augment what you consider a success but you have no impact on the roll itself.
But this thought process will also result in the thought of "why bother with any of that PvE content? the pitiful improvements in gear from it are not worth the time and effort me and my guild would need to put in".
And this is the crux of the issue - you simply can not have both. You either have a game with a healthy PvE progression, or you have a game where there is little gear gap for PvP.
There is literally no middle ground here - which again is why I have said for years that this game is a conglomeration of contradictions.
Don't forget, Intrepid want this game to have real PvE - that is as important to this game as real PvP is. L2 did not have real PvE.
waaaaat is that summary about?
People geninuely needed other to succeed, is, a suitable summary. "I ain't backing down", I've known many 100's of people from that game that aren't ego'ing or oozing the pvp "bitchness" you think they do. PvP is just part of the parcel of a real ow game and L2 incorperated that so naturally, they had their own penalty/corruption system and a growing and interesting guild system.
L2 was made before WoW's release, it's nothing impressive but if you keep staring at something like "combat fluidity" alone which you keep on raving about like an addict you won't see the scope of the system at all.
Just statement after statement from you, it's just straight out immature and disrespectful to other projects work and other peoples long term experiences, especially when they're trying their best to explain to you the systems involved.
Oh also, people grinded mobs for the new gear even though they knew that the gear itself won't suddenly make them invulnerable. Yes, they'll be stronger, but not by much. And still they were super happy if they dropped a whole piece of gear or if the finally gathered the 0.5% chance recipe that they needed.
What?
Are you high?
I think I have mentioned combat fluidity once on these forums, and it was me saying that WoW is probably the best at it in regards to tab target MMO's. I have not raved on about it at all, because it is not an overly important thing to me (fluidity generally means you don't have many options, I prefer options).
Yeah, L2 incorporated PvP well, that is why I said it was good in terms of PvP due to people in LK2 not backing down like the do in other games. It's combat system was still pretty shit though.
Seriously though, are you high?
I'll give you two easy things.
The first is PvE only - but the games hate mechanics were out of date when the game launched. There is literally no proximity or orientation mechanic involved at all, among other things that games of the time were doing.
Second, point and click moving. Perfectly fine when not in combat, shit for in combat.
And is proximity smth like "you get hit for 100 if you're 5 meters away from the attacker, but you get hit for 50 if you're 10m away?" They added a reverse of that for archers in a later update, but yeah, outside of that there's not really any proximity play. Yeah, I can definitely see how people could dislike it. Though for me it was more about fast skill usage and reaction times, because ttk was really short and cast speeds really fast (and no gcd) so you didn't really have time to dance around the place with your WASD.
Gear does not improve the quality of a PvE activity based on the amount of power rewarded, it's just an incentive to do it. It's not like you can take a boring boss fight, improve the drops, and suddenly the boss is fun.
People also don't play a game because of how powerful the gear rewards are. It's not like them doubling the stats on the gear in the current wow raids would increase the sub count.
GW2 and ESO both don't have high gear scaling but people still do the content. The legendary gear in GW2 isn't even a vertical improvement over the previous item rarity, it just gives the player the convenience of allowing them to swap stats on the fly. ESO does a lot with horizontal progression through its set effects which gives more build options. It's also becoming more common now for people to be motivated by things like cosmetics and achievements instead of power.
I don't think people need extreme jumps in power to incentivize them to do content and most definitely don't think it has any effect on how "real" the PvE is.
The game was released in 2003, what did you want back then??
It's a bit hard to give distinctions on what is "real", I say a "real" mmo to define a game that isn't mostly a solo player gameplay experience + party with a handful of randomers to complete 75% or more of the game. Ofc you, you always focus too heavily the supposed "RPG" element, which is an extremely vague term but as long as people come through character creator and make their own name, then it is one (which means the whole "isn't an mmorpg" is a defensive argument used by the immature. change my mind).
But outside of that L2 really didn't have much of PvE. You just stood in one place and unloaded onto the boss/mob. There weren't any complex mechanics or intricate combat designs for mobs. Pretty much all bosses were just thiccque dmg piñatas.
Spreadsheet PvP only!
Auto-fight button so you can solo mobs while looking at your spreadsheets!
Open the game up to people who aren't programmers able to have their spreadsheets auto-scroll, update, and respond to voice commands. Bring spreadsheet gaming to the PEOPLE!
there is auto play, it's called playing then luck into gear and then it's "playing my ass for me" that you're hoping for ;P
.......
It still needed trinity parties, you didn't need to shout about how lame enemies were god damn dude! You know as well as I do their are people with monocles in this forum sipping on their cups of tea, stroking their moustaches and defining what a true intellectual PvE experience is.