There is always players who PK others because they can and they consider it as a fun activity, regardless of the corruption system.
Corruption system will prevent that PKer from doing it more than, maaaybe, a few times. You kill one lowbie - you're already in deep shit and are getting hunted by BHs. You kill another one? Now you can't kill anyone because your stats are in the trash and you'll have to grind for days/weeks to remove your future XP debt. Your gear will most likely break and some of it will probably drop, because you'll have to die multiple times with x4 penalties on each death.
Only a small fraction of the pvp population would be willing to just go kill low lvl players. And corruption will stop the majority of those people, and prevent others from trying.
Yeah will see. This is something which is really hard to theorycraft without proper testing. Creating open world PvP rules is always a huge challenge because finding the right balance is so hard. Players are really good to find loop holes from the systems and sometimes the creativity in that field is amazing. 😅 Anyhow, there is of course a possibility that the restrictions and penalties are so high that ganking exist extremely rarely, for example, like in Albion's yellow zones which are low lvl PvP zones but in practice the non-consensual PvP is almost non-existing.
Anyhow, there is of course a possibility that the restrictions and penalties are so high that ganking exist extremely rarely, for example, like in Albion's yellow zones which are low lvl PvP zones but in practice the non-consensual PvP is almost non-existing.
Definitely hope that will not be the case, but yes, we'll have to see what the testing shows us.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Corruption is designed to deter PKing - especially ganking lower level characters.
There is no looting of "items" - just a portion of resources
The majority of PvP in Ashes is objective-based PvP.
If one player is too low to have any reasonable chance of surviving a gank, then their best option is to take a beating and die, from what I understand of the Corruption mechanic. But I have an idea to help with this weird and uncomfortable behaviour:
Perhaps the weak gankee could type "/pray" and one of the gods may do some righteous smiting, depending on reputation or other mechanics. This would help the feeble, as just standing still and waiting to die is not likely to be enjoyable. But the odd godly lightening bolt could be fun, even if RNG'd.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If I have a skill that does a thousand damage to a target of equal level I don't want my skill to do zero damage to a target that's five levels above me.[9] – Steven Sharif
1:33:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtVUiS7yAHE&t=5695s
That was a statement at one point by Steven saying 4-5 level difference would be doable in PvP but there would be no scaling/normalization of levels between players. Would need to look further to find the statement.
The big key is the last two words in that statement. And I agree with the statement that most everything should be open world. Most certainly anything of meaning that delivers any kind of reward should be open world but alas they plan to have instanced arenas that provide temporary enchantments.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
L2 also prevented high lvl players from farming low lvl locations because they literally didn't get resources or XP from the mobs. I personally hope that it's the same way in Ashes. Have some step-based artisan progression where in order to move onto higher tiers of progress, you forgo the lower ones. Make a soft tie-in to the character's adventure lvl and make taking these steps a voluntary decision instead of "oh, you were at tier3 of gathering and picked up another flower? Now you're at tier4 and can't pick tier2 anymore. Sucks to be you".
This way casual players who don't care for pvp could gather low lvl resources w/o worry that some top lvl dude will come to annihilate them (not like corruption would allow this, but still). And if that player decides to go higher in their artisan progress - they'll have to risk more pvp, because they'd need to go up in adventure lvls and visit locations where there'll probably be more pvp.
This would also create a soft pvp ladder, where any new player could still find pvp around low lvl resources because there's casual players running around there, while said casual players could still pvp back just fine because the gear disparity isn't present. If anything, a casual artisan would probably have muuuuch better gear than a new player, because they've been farming stuff on the same adventure lvl and have made a ton of money doing so.
Lower level materials will be necessary to repair gear. The node system will be more open world and there will not be zone levels like other games. there will be a mix of levels both player and mob's.
Dungeons, Raids, World bosses, Mobs, Quests, Events, Resources, Narratives and other content within a node's ZOI will have a diverse level range; but will scale with the advancement of that node and its racial influence.[11][12][13]
We don’t have a strictly level 25 zone. Instead, that zone might have some level 10 creatures near the road, some level 20 creatures deep in the forest, and some level 30 creatures up the mountain. These ratios will change based on the Nodes that inform them, becoming generally more dangerous as the Node grows. All this civilization attracts the attention of Things-That-Should-Not-Be. This does not mean that wilderness areas are safe, by any means. Some may be safe-er, but all will have dangers that even the most experienced traveler needs to watch out for.[14] – Steven Sharif
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
Lower level materials will be necessary to repair gear. The node system will be more open world and there will not be zone levels like other games. there will be a mix of levels both player and mob's.
Dungeons, Raids, World bosses, Mobs, Quests, Events, Resources, Narratives and other content within a node's ZOI will have a diverse level range; but will scale with the advancement of that node and its racial influence.[11][12][13]
We don’t have a strictly level 25 zone. Instead, that zone might have some level 10 creatures near the road, some level 20 creatures deep in the forest, and some level 30 creatures up the mountain. These ratios will change based on the Nodes that inform them, becoming generally more dangerous as the Node grows. All this civilization attracts the attention of Things-That-Should-Not-Be. This does not mean that wilderness areas are safe, by any means. Some may be safe-er, but all will have dangers that even the most experienced traveler needs to watch out for.[14] – Steven Sharif
Yes, all of those things are true, but if high lvl players/gatherers can still benefit from killing low lvl mobs - they'll fight low lvl players that are farming those mobs/resources and will just annihilate them in pvp. And I personally think this should be avoided.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Perhaps, Maybe, maybe not. I forsee people not killing people in their own node. Why kill players helping to advance/maintain your home node ZOI. It also has ties to the economy over all. I see it as people buying and selling or gathering it themselves if they can but with the crafting system being interdependent players will need each other more so then in other games.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Artisan_classes
Certain low level gatherables will have a tiered progression into higher level crafting. So for example you know if I'm gathering... leaves of the blue petal flower to craft a pigment that's going to be used in the development of a tunic that I can wear at level one, then I may need to collect those in order to craft the pigments to craft a greater pigment that might be present in the in the crafting of a higher level item. So it's going to be kind of a tiered progression so that materials have relevancy throughout the different levels of of crafting; and that's important from an economic stability standpoint. You need to have layered demand from a supply standpoint so that players who are interested in collecting and gathering those materials still are relevant when the later level items are crafted.[19] – Steven Sharif
I see players not being divided up by levels as both good and bad. Seeing someone run by in high level gear can be inspiring and something to look forward to and achieve. The corruption system will hopefully quash the other side. Time will tell.
Needing low level materials to craft/repair items will keep them relevant long term and not just to players making alts or new people coming through. So many game fail on this front. Copper ore is only good very early then after a very short time span is completely forgotten by the larger community as it serves no purpose other then leveling what ever artisan class you have chosen.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
Who said anything about stopping PvP?? I'm advocating for lower levels to have some footing into this content without being totally ragged on.
They get into this content through group play like I mentioned before. You know. The MMO part of MMORPG.
Low levels won't get picked on by higher levels because they most likely won't be worth the huge corruption hit.
The game is designed around groups and social interaction and isn't intended to be a solo game. If you want that go and play wow and you can BG in your level group and run on a hamster wheel all day.
Right, and why would a low level player want to or even be included in this group play when they offer nothing in terms of damage and survivability?
Min maxing is a thing. It will always exist, and while it does, players will be excluded.
This is the issue. There is no inclusivity if low level players can offer nothing to the group play other than spectate as a ghost.
This isn't about hamster wheels. This is about allowing players of all levels to enjoy content of the game. This can be done through temporary scaling, bracketed instanced PvP combat or soft caps on who can attack who.
A corruption system may deter a higher level player killing a lower one, but then if the lower level player has free reign to capture points without repercussions then it's not fair on the higher player for engaging in combat to defend the node. But then it's unfair for the lower player because they've just been used as fodder and have taken up a group party slot.
Corruption is suspended in structured pvp events. If you’re level 20 guarding a caravan and it’s attacked by a level 50 guild - you’re going to die a few times without repercussions.
So then there's no point bringing a low level to the fight as they offer nothing to the defense of the caravan. They're free kills
As they should be. A dude who played for 10h shouldn't do content that people, that have played for months, are doing. A lvl20 player probably won't have the quantity of resources to warrant a caravan run instead of just a mule. But if they do have that many resources, they'd probably want to sell them to higher lvled players. And if you need to run a caravan to those high lvl players - go talk to them and say "you want my resources? Go help me transfer them". And those high lvl players will be interested in helping the lvl20 player out because they want the resources.
If you're starting the game months after the release and for some reason there's no low lvl players around (this has its own terrible connotations), you could look for a guild to help you lvl. The chances are, if there's no new players - top lvl dudes would probably start leveling up their alt chars and would probably have low lvl parties that could pick you up for farm. And you'd now have protection while farming/gathering and a guild to socialize with.
So then there's no point bringing a low level to the fight as they offer nothing to the defense of the caravan. They're free kills
Having the low level there is better than nothing. But really that low level should be somewhere else, leveling up. He can participate if he wants to though in the meantime.
I kind of understand where you're coming from OP. Some games do take the routes that you're talking about. But that stuff is so against the grain of what Ashes is trying to be, there's pretty much no shot it'll even be considered much less implemented.
You're talking about a problem that is not permanent. People level up. They don't just stay perma low level. Everyone levels up at different speeds, but everyone who want's to, eventually reaches max.
You start doing that level scaling stuff and it throws games completely out of wack. I remember back in Warhammer Online people used to level up alts and then keep them at level 19, or 39 for as long as possible so they weren't put into the next bracket. Separates the player base, diminishes the value of character progression. Other side effects too.
Ashes is one world. One set of rules that everyone plays by. And everyone will be below someone else's level at some point, other than the day 1 speed levelers.
How will be the leveling up in this game?
I've seen opinions that the real gameplay in MMOs starts at max level.
Why there is a leveling-up phase really?
It will take longer than most modern mmos to level to max. Not sure how much longer, it's probably in the wiki somewhere though. You level up by doing quests and pve content. Other types of things might give XP too.
Why is there a leveling up phase? I mean that's like an existential mmo question lol. The answer is too long and varied for me to type out here.
I enjoy PvP, but one concern I have is being sub max level and being unable to participate fairly and enjoyably against players within a similar level bracket. PvP has a significant impact on any online game, and ineligibility to partake could potentially drive away new players interested in having a go.
New World had open world PvP, but nobody below 60 would flag for fights because higher level players would be in lower level zones for materials. Additionally, scaling was removed so that lower levels had no chance of fighting back. As there was no bracketed instanced combat for lower levels, PvP was pretty much non existent after 60s started to emerge.
Will there be buffers to who can attack who? I.e 60 can only attack a max level of 50 ( 10 level difference) this system is in OSRS wilderness
Will scaling exist in PvP? Exists in some games already
Will instanced battlegrounds be offered as an alternative for players in specific brackeI dont want to see a scaling system, if you feel underpowered... level like everyone else.
I enjoy PvP, but one concern I have is being sub max level and being unable to participate fairly and enjoyably against players within a similar level bracket. PvP has a significant impact on any online game, and ineligibility to partake could potentially drive away new players interested in having a go.
New World had open world PvP, but nobody below 60 would flag for fights because higher level players would be in lower level zones for materials. Additionally, scaling was removed so that lower levels had no chance of fighting back. As there was no bracketed instanced combat for lower levels, PvP was pretty much non existent after 60s started to emerge.
Will there be buffers to who can attack who? I.e 60 can only attack a max level of 50 ( 10 level difference) this system is in OSRS wilderness
Will scaling exist in PvP? Exists in some games already
Will instanced battlegrounds be offered as an alternative for players in specific brackets?
Please no, if you want to be able to fight with the big boys then level like the rest. Corruption will keep or should keep most lower level players relatively safe. I don't want to see after the game has been out 6 months getting overwhelmed by groups of lowbies with equal power attacking caravans.
At some point games need to stop making shit easy mode for everyone (thanks WoW) It might take time, might be frustrating, but in the end you will be on the same level. tough it out cupcake.
I've seen opinions that the real gameplay in MMOs starts at max level.
That's only an opinion because devs put themselves into a dead end. Intrepid's trying to get away from that dead end by having longer leveling process and having interesting content across all lvls. No one's stopping low lvl players from participating in some particular content, but they should expect to get killed, while interacting with said content, if there's high lvl players doing the same thing.
To have a sense of character progress. If you don't want that, there's quite a few genres that just give you all the tools immediately and you go and play with them.
Even if the leveling concept itself didn't exist, you'd still have some sort of stat progression or movement on a gear tiers ladder, or any other kind of mechanic where people that put in more time get more advantages over the people that didn't put in as much time. And for those that dislike the sheer concept of someone being stronger than someone else, I believe, GW2 has equalization and an almost completely horizontal gear progression, on top of being story-centered - so there already is an alternative to the usual way of doing things.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Corruption is suspended in structured pvp events. If you’re level 20 guarding a caravan and it’s attacked by a level 50 guild - you’re going to die a few times without repercussions.
Open pvp is a different story.
Depends on who chooses to defend the caravan.
If a Level 50 guild is nearby to attack a Caravan, there's a good chance that there will be plenty of Level 50 people nearby willing to defend the Caravan.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So then there's no point bringing a low level to the fight as they offer nothing to the defense of the caravan. They're free kills
Having the low level there is better than nothing. But really that low level should be somewhere else, leveling up. He can participate if he wants to though in the meantime.
How will be the leveling up in this game?
I've seen opinions that the real gameplay in MMOs starts at max level.
Why there is a leveling-up phase really?
Because Ashes is an RPG.
And Ashes is designed for gameplay to be relevent at all character levels.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So then there's no point bringing a low level to the fight as they offer nothing to the defense of the caravan. They're free kills
You don't "bring low levels to the fight".
Low levels can choose to participate in the fight, if they wish.
Caravans are not a strictly max level activity.
Caravan raids will very likely include some low level attackers as well as some low level defenders.
And they might included max level attackers and max level defenders.
A bit of contraversy in this topic, but this is my conclusion
- No focused PvP content for sub 50 players. Some players may get bored of the repetitive PvE grind and leave
- They could join, but they will get rammed and make it an unjoyable experience for both player and their team. This may lead to conflict between social groups and then people quitting the game
- PvP objectives are supposedly a levelling progression path, but again getting rammed means you will lose a lot and participation award will be low. Additionally this suffers from diminishing returns. Losing more leads to frustrated players which leads to quitting which again leads to fewer overall players in game
The only real fix I see with open world without totally isolating sub level 50 group is scaling players up to a base set of stats which can be further improved through perks and "talents" achieved from PvP. These will only be effective during PvP objectives. Examples of these perks include increasing base stats/ speed/ Crit etc. Higher level players would inherently still be more powerful with access to more skills and abilities in combat while items would be cosmetic.
This opens up the opportunity for all players to engage in this content fairly, with progression systems still in place for those who participate more and allow higher levels to still have an edge through utility with more access to higher grade abilities
The only real fix I see with open world without totally isolating sub level 50 group is scaling players up to a base set of stats which can be further improved through perks and "talents" achieved from PvP. These will only be effective during PvP objectives. Examples of these perks include increasing base stats/ speed/ Crit etc. Higher level players would inherently still be more powerful with access to more skills and abilities in combat while items would be cosmetic.
I disagree 100%. If people want to get stronger, they should grind mobs and invest in better gear. Having something to aim for gives people drive. There's no need to devalue the gains of players who have already been through the process by giving everyone else power boosts to close the gap. Not everyone needs to be on an equal playing field at all times.
Instead, I propose that killing players significantly below your level spikes up your corruption much faster than PKing someone closer to your own strength. That should be more than enough incentive to leave the noobs alone while also allowing for you to kill them (ie. scouts on fresh accounts) when absolutely necessary.
To further improve on the above, there should also be an exception for skillers. If you're a high level gatherer/processor/crafter with a low 'combat' level, people should be able to kill you without the threat of extra corruption. That way you can't just farm or transport through high level nodes without worry of getting PK'ed.
A bit of contraversy in this topic, but this is my conclusion
- No focused PvP content for sub 50 players. Some players may get bored of the repetitive PvE grind and leave
- They could join, but they will get rammed and make it an unjoyable experience for both player and their team. This may lead to conflict between social groups and then people quitting the game
- PvP objectives are supposedly a levelling progression path, but again getting rammed means you will lose a lot and participation award will be low. Additionally this suffers from diminishing returns. Losing more leads to frustrated players which leads to quitting which again leads to fewer overall players in game
The only real fix I see with open world without totally isolating sub level 50 group is scaling players up to a base set of stats which can be further improved through perks and "talents" achieved from PvP. These will only be effective during PvP objectives. Examples of these perks include increasing base stats/ speed/ Crit etc. Higher level players would inherently still be more powerful with access to more skills and abilities in combat while items would be cosmetic.
This opens up the opportunity for all players to engage in this content fairly, with progression systems still in place for those who participate more and allow higher levels to still have an edge through utility with more access to higher grade abilities
A bit of contraversy in this topic, but this is my conclusion
- No focused PvP content for sub 50 players. Some players may get bored of the repetitive PvE grind and leave
- They could join, but they will get rammed and make it an unjoyable experience for both player and their team. This may lead to conflict between social groups and then people quitting the game
- PvP objectives are supposedly a levelling progression path, but again getting rammed means you will lose a lot and participation award will be low. Additionally this suffers from diminishing returns. Losing more leads to frustrated players which leads to quitting which again leads to fewer overall players in game
The only real fix I see with open world without totally isolating sub level 50 group is scaling players up to a base set of stats which can be further improved through perks and "talents" achieved from PvP. These will only be effective during PvP objectives. Examples of these perks include increasing base stats/ speed/ Crit etc. Higher level players would inherently still be more powerful with access to more skills and abilities in combat while items would be cosmetic.
This opens up the opportunity for all players to engage in this content fairly, with progression systems still in place for those who participate more and allow higher levels to still have an edge through utility with more access to higher grade abilities
No one cares that you're a casual and want to have equal footing in pvp against people that are not. You won't. This game isn't supposed to be fair. And if you're not a "casual", what the F do you care anyways?
You've been given plenty of reasons why there won't be as much of an issue as you think there will be. Seems like you just want to argue for the sake of argument.
No one cares that you're a casual and want to have equal footing in pvp against people that are not. You won't. This game isn't supposed to be fair. And if you're not a "casual", what the F do you care anyways?
Ashes has gathered a lot of traction over the years, more so recently with larger content creators. Of these new players, a lot will be casual. I care because players should feel and deserve to be valued members in an MMO. Players regardless of their status contribute to the game which is important for the health and longevity. Because the game currently offers nothing sub 50 for PvP content, that's a fair chunk of new or rerolling players missing out on a whole mode of content.
It's one thing to be inspired to reach higher level, it's another to be locked out of content which you can normally participate in most mmorpgs. The cost of living is rising globally which means more players would be casual players in order to maintain their lifestyle
But I guarantee you you'd retract your "it's not meant to be fair" if you're being repeatedly clapped by a certain class over and over with no means of winning yourself.
Good games are designed to be challenging, but fair. If you weren't challenged you'd get bored and if they weren't fair you wouldn't keep playing.
Ashes has gathered a lot of traction over the years, more so recently with larger content creators. Of these new players, a lot will be casual. I care because players should feel and deserve to be valued members in an MMO. Players regardless of their status contribute to the game which is important for the health and longevity. Because the game currently offers nothing sub 50 for PvP content, that's a fair chunk of new or rerolling players missing out on a whole mode of content.
And all of that traction is useless if all those casual players are only interested in completely changing core design choices of the game.
There's already a ton of stuff for casual players to do and the pvp system has already gotten casual-friendly changes. If that's not enough - this game might not fit their casual playstyle and that's completely ok, they have a ton of other games to go and casually play.
Literally any pvp event/action can be done at any lvl. The only thing that differs is your impact on that event/action. Especially when compared to the impact of higher lvled/geared people. As I already said, if you want an equalized pvp environment - there's a ton of games that can provide you that. There's currently no plans to have that in Ashes, and I highly doubt they'll suddenly appear down the road.
No one cares that you're a casual and want to have equal footing in pvp against people that are not. You won't. This game isn't supposed to be fair. And if you're not a "casual", what the F do you care anyways?
Ashes has gathered a lot of traction over the years, more so recently with larger content creators. Of these new players, a lot will be casual. I care because players should feel and deserve to be valued members in an MMO. Players regardless of their status contribute to the game which is important for the health and longevity. Because the game currently offers nothing sub 50 for PvP content, that's a fair chunk of new or rerolling players missing out on a whole mode of content.
It's one thing to be inspired to reach higher level, it's another to be locked out of content which you can normally participate in most mmorpgs. The cost of living is rising globally which means more players would be casual players in order to maintain their lifestyle
But I guarantee you you'd retract your "it's not meant to be fair" if you're being repeatedly clapped by a certain class over and over with no means of winning yourself.
Good games are designed to be challenging, but fair. If you weren't challenged you'd get bored and if they weren't fair you wouldn't keep playing.
Nobody is going to retract anything. Some ppl have played goodgames. You havent.
It shows in the things you take issue with that you dont know how fun low lv pvp is when you get to fight other low lvl players, you get to pk them (you wouldnt know what the difference of pvp and pk is, but anyway) without worrying about low lv gear loss, you wouldnt worry about guild plans and personal reputation, and if a high lv player showed up to clean house we'd laugh it off and say "ye it's time to get back into progressing after half a day of messing around and having fun".
Some people here have been through all those fun times, but you with your attitude burnZeYyy dont want to understand that it's a non-issue. Want scaling? ESO is that way. All players are the same lv and you can have fun raiding with npcs and PvPing in a safe zone.
Come back when you get bored of the same old risk averse gaming, but this here game design wont change. Perhaps by then you'd wanna be educated instead of giving direction. You havent said anything new btw.
But I guarantee you you'd retract your "it's not meant to be fair" if you're being repeatedly clapped by a certain class over and over with no means of winning yourself.
I can promise you I would not. I only play games for the PvP. Doesn't matter the genre. The best example I can give you, in regards to "getting clapped repeatedly", is Escape from Tarkov. That game is brutal, and punishingly unforgiving, and it's fun as hell. You ever been Tarkov'd?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Ashes has gathered a lot of traction over the years, more so recently with larger content creators. Of these new players, a lot will be casual. I care because players should feel and deserve to be valued members in an MMO. Players regardless of their status contribute to the game which is important for the health and longevity. Because the game currently offers nothing sub 50 for PvP content, that's a fair chunk of new or rerolling players missing out on a whole mode of content.
I am a casual challenge player.
What you are describing is not an issue - by design.
Corruption is designed to deter ganking - especially level gap ganking.
And Sieges and Caravans are objective-based Battlegrounds where characters of every level can find stuff to do.
We will just have to test to see if the implementation of the designs actually work as intended.
Gloom and Doom before testing is meaningless.
A bit of contraversy in this topic, but this is my conclusion
- No focused PvP content for sub 50 players. Some players may get bored of the repetitive PvE grind and leave
- They could join, but they will get rammed and make it an unjoyable experience for both player and their team. This may lead to conflict between social groups and then people quitting the game
- PvP objectives are supposedly a levelling progression path, but again getting rammed means you will lose a lot and participation award will be low. Additionally this suffers from diminishing returns. Losing more leads to frustrated players which leads to quitting which again leads to fewer overall players in game
The only real fix I see with open world without totally isolating sub level 50 group is scaling players up to a base set of stats which can be further improved through perks and "talents" achieved from PvP. These will only be effective during PvP objectives. Examples of these perks include increasing base stats/ speed/ Crit etc. Higher level players would inherently still be more powerful with access to more skills and abilities in combat while items would be cosmetic.
This opens up the opportunity for all players to engage in this content fairly, with progression systems still in place for those who participate more and allow higher levels to still have an edge through utility with more access to higher grade abilities
There's no focused pvp content for anyone. This is a sandbox game. There's a range of content. Castle sieges, node wars, arenas, guild wars, caravan pvp, small gang fighting for resources, contesting world bosses etc.
Low level characters can participate or contribute in 90% of it. But a level 20 is not meant to beat a level 50. That's not how progression in the game works. But the low level will likely get a little participation trophy for trying in some areas.
As for your "fix": no. Go and level up, the game is PVX you'll likely have to do some pve somewhere. If you want to be an even somewhat effective level 20 fighting on par with level 50's the response is it simply won't happen. But there'll be other lowbies for you to fight.
Comments
Yeah will see. This is something which is really hard to theorycraft without proper testing. Creating open world PvP rules is always a huge challenge because finding the right balance is so hard. Players are really good to find loop holes from the systems and sometimes the creativity in that field is amazing. 😅 Anyhow, there is of course a possibility that the restrictions and penalties are so high that ganking exist extremely rarely, for example, like in Albion's yellow zones which are low lvl PvP zones but in practice the non-consensual PvP is almost non-existing.
There is no looting of "items" - just a portion of resources
The majority of PvP in Ashes is objective-based PvP.
We will test all this in Alpha 2.
Perhaps the weak gankee could type "/pray" and one of the gods may do some righteous smiting, depending on reputation or other mechanics. This would help the feeble, as just standing still and waiting to die is not likely to be enjoyable. But the odd godly lightening bolt could be fun, even if RNG'd.
Equalized PvP
There will not be equalized PvP in the open world. There may be equalized PvP in certain arena battlegrounds under specific circumstances.[209]
34:59
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Leveling
There won't be any damage dampening due to differences in levels in either PvP or PvE.[9]
If I have a skill that does a thousand damage to a target of equal level I don't want my skill to do zero damage to a target that's five levels above me.[9] – Steven Sharif
1:33:30
That was a statement at one point by Steven saying 4-5 level difference would be doable in PvP but there would be no scaling/normalization of levels between players. Would need to look further to find the statement.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Open_world_battlegrounds
Battlegrounds are objective-based events where PvP battles occur in the open world.[4][5]
The big key is the last two words in that statement. And I agree with the statement that most everything should be open world. Most certainly anything of meaning that delivers any kind of reward should be open world but alas they plan to have instanced arenas that provide temporary enchantments.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas
This way casual players who don't care for pvp could gather low lvl resources w/o worry that some top lvl dude will come to annihilate them (not like corruption would allow this, but still). And if that player decides to go higher in their artisan progress - they'll have to risk more pvp, because they'd need to go up in adventure lvls and visit locations where there'll probably be more pvp.
This would also create a soft pvp ladder, where any new player could still find pvp around low lvl resources because there's casual players running around there, while said casual players could still pvp back just fine because the gear disparity isn't present. If anything, a casual artisan would probably have muuuuch better gear than a new player, because they've been farming stuff on the same adventure lvl and have made a ton of money doing so.
Lower level materials will be necessary to repair gear. The node system will be more open world and there will not be zone levels like other games. there will be a mix of levels both player and mob's.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Gear
50:56
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Mobs#Zones_and_mob_levels
Zones and mob levels
Dungeons, Raids, World bosses, Mobs, Quests, Events, Resources, Narratives and other content within a node's ZOI will have a diverse level range; but will scale with the advancement of that node and its racial influence.[11][12][13]
We don’t have a strictly level 25 zone. Instead, that zone might have some level 10 creatures near the road, some level 20 creatures deep in the forest, and some level 30 creatures up the mountain. These ratios will change based on the Nodes that inform them, becoming generally more dangerous as the Node grows. All this civilization attracts the attention of Things-That-Should-Not-Be. This does not mean that wilderness areas are safe, by any means. Some may be safe-er, but all will have dangers that even the most experienced traveler needs to watch out for.[14] – Steven Sharif
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Artisan_classes
Certain low level gatherables will have a tiered progression into higher level crafting. So for example you know if I'm gathering... leaves of the blue petal flower to craft a pigment that's going to be used in the development of a tunic that I can wear at level one, then I may need to collect those in order to craft the pigments to craft a greater pigment that might be present in the in the crafting of a higher level item. So it's going to be kind of a tiered progression so that materials have relevancy throughout the different levels of of crafting; and that's important from an economic stability standpoint. You need to have layered demand from a supply standpoint so that players who are interested in collecting and gathering those materials still are relevant when the later level items are crafted.[19] – Steven Sharif
50:56
I see players not being divided up by levels as both good and bad. Seeing someone run by in high level gear can be inspiring and something to look forward to and achieve. The corruption system will hopefully quash the other side. Time will tell.
Needing low level materials to craft/repair items will keep them relevant long term and not just to players making alts or new people coming through. So many game fail on this front. Copper ore is only good very early then after a very short time span is completely forgotten by the larger community as it serves no purpose other then leveling what ever artisan class you have chosen.
Right, and why would a low level player want to or even be included in this group play when they offer nothing in terms of damage and survivability?
Min maxing is a thing. It will always exist, and while it does, players will be excluded.
This is the issue. There is no inclusivity if low level players can offer nothing to the group play other than spectate as a ghost.
This isn't about hamster wheels. This is about allowing players of all levels to enjoy content of the game. This can be done through temporary scaling, bracketed instanced PvP combat or soft caps on who can attack who.
A corruption system may deter a higher level player killing a lower one, but then if the lower level player has free reign to capture points without repercussions then it's not fair on the higher player for engaging in combat to defend the node. But then it's unfair for the lower player because they've just been used as fodder and have taken up a group party slot.
Open pvp is a different story.
If you're starting the game months after the release and for some reason there's no low lvl players around (this has its own terrible connotations), you could look for a guild to help you lvl. The chances are, if there's no new players - top lvl dudes would probably start leveling up their alt chars and would probably have low lvl parties that could pick you up for farm. And you'd now have protection while farming/gathering and a guild to socialize with.
Having the low level there is better than nothing. But really that low level should be somewhere else, leveling up. He can participate if he wants to though in the meantime.
I kind of understand where you're coming from OP. Some games do take the routes that you're talking about. But that stuff is so against the grain of what Ashes is trying to be, there's pretty much no shot it'll even be considered much less implemented.
You're talking about a problem that is not permanent. People level up. They don't just stay perma low level. Everyone levels up at different speeds, but everyone who want's to, eventually reaches max.
You start doing that level scaling stuff and it throws games completely out of wack. I remember back in Warhammer Online people used to level up alts and then keep them at level 19, or 39 for as long as possible so they weren't put into the next bracket. Separates the player base, diminishes the value of character progression. Other side effects too.
Ashes is one world. One set of rules that everyone plays by. And everyone will be below someone else's level at some point, other than the day 1 speed levelers.
It will take longer than most modern mmos to level to max. Not sure how much longer, it's probably in the wiki somewhere though. You level up by doing quests and pve content. Other types of things might give XP too.
Why is there a leveling up phase? I mean that's like an existential mmo question lol. The answer is too long and varied for me to type out here.
Even if the leveling concept itself didn't exist, you'd still have some sort of stat progression or movement on a gear tiers ladder, or any other kind of mechanic where people that put in more time get more advantages over the people that didn't put in as much time. And for those that dislike the sheer concept of someone being stronger than someone else, I believe, GW2 has equalization and an almost completely horizontal gear progression, on top of being story-centered - so there already is an alternative to the usual way of doing things.
If a Level 50 guild is nearby to attack a Caravan, there's a good chance that there will be plenty of Level 50 people nearby willing to defend the Caravan.
And Ashes is designed for gameplay to be relevent at all character levels.
Low levels can choose to participate in the fight, if they wish.
Caravans are not a strictly max level activity.
Caravan raids will very likely include some low level attackers as well as some low level defenders.
And they might included max level attackers and max level defenders.
- No focused PvP content for sub 50 players. Some players may get bored of the repetitive PvE grind and leave
- They could join, but they will get rammed and make it an unjoyable experience for both player and their team. This may lead to conflict between social groups and then people quitting the game
- PvP objectives are supposedly a levelling progression path, but again getting rammed means you will lose a lot and participation award will be low. Additionally this suffers from diminishing returns. Losing more leads to frustrated players which leads to quitting which again leads to fewer overall players in game
The only real fix I see with open world without totally isolating sub level 50 group is scaling players up to a base set of stats which can be further improved through perks and "talents" achieved from PvP. These will only be effective during PvP objectives. Examples of these perks include increasing base stats/ speed/ Crit etc. Higher level players would inherently still be more powerful with access to more skills and abilities in combat while items would be cosmetic.
This opens up the opportunity for all players to engage in this content fairly, with progression systems still in place for those who participate more and allow higher levels to still have an edge through utility with more access to higher grade abilities
I disagree 100%. If people want to get stronger, they should grind mobs and invest in better gear. Having something to aim for gives people drive. There's no need to devalue the gains of players who have already been through the process by giving everyone else power boosts to close the gap. Not everyone needs to be on an equal playing field at all times.
Instead, I propose that killing players significantly below your level spikes up your corruption much faster than PKing someone closer to your own strength. That should be more than enough incentive to leave the noobs alone while also allowing for you to kill them (ie. scouts on fresh accounts) when absolutely necessary.
To further improve on the above, there should also be an exception for skillers. If you're a high level gatherer/processor/crafter with a low 'combat' level, people should be able to kill you without the threat of extra corruption. That way you can't just farm or transport through high level nodes without worry of getting PK'ed.
Not gonna happen.
No one cares that you're a casual and want to have equal footing in pvp against people that are not. You won't. This game isn't supposed to be fair. And if you're not a "casual", what the F do you care anyways?
You've been given plenty of reasons why there won't be as much of an issue as you think there will be. Seems like you just want to argue for the sake of argument.
Ashes has gathered a lot of traction over the years, more so recently with larger content creators. Of these new players, a lot will be casual. I care because players should feel and deserve to be valued members in an MMO. Players regardless of their status contribute to the game which is important for the health and longevity. Because the game currently offers nothing sub 50 for PvP content, that's a fair chunk of new or rerolling players missing out on a whole mode of content.
It's one thing to be inspired to reach higher level, it's another to be locked out of content which you can normally participate in most mmorpgs. The cost of living is rising globally which means more players would be casual players in order to maintain their lifestyle
But I guarantee you you'd retract your "it's not meant to be fair" if you're being repeatedly clapped by a certain class over and over with no means of winning yourself.
Good games are designed to be challenging, but fair. If you weren't challenged you'd get bored and if they weren't fair you wouldn't keep playing.
There's already a ton of stuff for casual players to do and the pvp system has already gotten casual-friendly changes. If that's not enough - this game might not fit their casual playstyle and that's completely ok, they have a ton of other games to go and casually play.
Literally any pvp event/action can be done at any lvl. The only thing that differs is your impact on that event/action. Especially when compared to the impact of higher lvled/geared people. As I already said, if you want an equalized pvp environment - there's a ton of games that can provide you that. There's currently no plans to have that in Ashes, and I highly doubt they'll suddenly appear down the road.
Nobody is going to retract anything. Some ppl have played goodgames. You havent.
It shows in the things you take issue with that you dont know how fun low lv pvp is when you get to fight other low lvl players, you get to pk them (you wouldnt know what the difference of pvp and pk is, but anyway) without worrying about low lv gear loss, you wouldnt worry about guild plans and personal reputation, and if a high lv player showed up to clean house we'd laugh it off and say "ye it's time to get back into progressing after half a day of messing around and having fun".
Some people here have been through all those fun times, but you with your attitude burnZeYyy dont want to understand that it's a non-issue. Want scaling? ESO is that way. All players are the same lv and you can have fun raiding with npcs and PvPing in a safe zone.
Come back when you get bored of the same old risk averse gaming, but this here game design wont change. Perhaps by then you'd wanna be educated instead of giving direction. You havent said anything new btw.
I can promise you I would not. I only play games for the PvP. Doesn't matter the genre. The best example I can give you, in regards to "getting clapped repeatedly", is Escape from Tarkov. That game is brutal, and punishingly unforgiving, and it's fun as hell. You ever been Tarkov'd?
What you are describing is not an issue - by design.
Corruption is designed to deter ganking - especially level gap ganking.
And Sieges and Caravans are objective-based Battlegrounds where characters of every level can find stuff to do.
We will just have to test to see if the implementation of the designs actually work as intended.
Gloom and Doom before testing is meaningless.
There's no focused pvp content for anyone. This is a sandbox game. There's a range of content. Castle sieges, node wars, arenas, guild wars, caravan pvp, small gang fighting for resources, contesting world bosses etc.
Low level characters can participate or contribute in 90% of it. But a level 20 is not meant to beat a level 50. That's not how progression in the game works. But the low level will likely get a little participation trophy for trying in some areas.
As for your "fix": no. Go and level up, the game is PVX you'll likely have to do some pve somewhere. If you want to be an even somewhat effective level 20 fighting on par with level 50's the response is it simply won't happen. But there'll be other lowbies for you to fight.