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The problem with peice by peice revealing of a HYBRID combat system.

PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited July 2022 in General Discussion
Today we show off the base attack changes. And they look good, and the progress from alot of feed back in alpha 1 is apparent. Some of my base attack feed back from alpha 1 was addressed. Its nice to see.


But did we see everything we needed to see, of base attacks. In the hybrid system. Ashes is aiming for today? Id like to see more of the movement, and base attacking in tab targeting mode. I would like these peice by peice updates to cover how each peice fits into the whole of a hybrid system. The stream today looked great for an upcoming action combat mmo. I think in future updates, it should be important to show each aspect of what is being covered. Show it in action combat mode. And in tab target mode.

How am i supposed to make suggestions on how to make these base attacks more fitting in tab targeting, if that is my perfered way to play, if i dont even get to see it used that way.

Comments

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    We didn't see everything.
    Around June 14, Steven decided he would try to showcase a bit of combat instead of what they had originally planned to show for the June 22 Dev Livestream - because so many people have been asking to see some updated combat.

    We got a very nice taste of the direction they're heading in, but it is far from "everything".
    Discuss what you liked and disliked about what you saw if you wish to give feedback now.
    Or wait until they showcase combat you're more keen to comment on.
    I think most people are more worried that the Action Combat won't feel right and are quite confident they will nail Tab Target combat.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Yeah. This is just more feedback towards the stream itself. I think this showing of a peice of the system, was too isolated to show how said peice fits into the overall system being made. it appears to be nearly tunnel vision on making an action combat base attack. Even if they do have more of the over all system in mind.

    Its missleading marketing at worst. Poorly thought out presentation at best.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It's not intended to do that, though.
    Most people loved the Demo. Way better than I was expecting.

    I don't know that what we saw counts as a base attack.
    We saw a few Fighter Active Skills.
    But, yes, I think the mob attacks we saw indicate we may need to either rely on AoEs when solo or fight with a group.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    It's not intended to do that, though.

    Everything that gets released is "somewhat marketing" thats why they make sure to not show anything before it looks good. If they had a "transparent development process" where they were showing off how poorly their first attempts were all the time, i wouldn't have the opinion that this update was flare over function. But they dont. They have a "transparent development process" where they only show things when they are somewhat pretty, and they put it on stage.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    It’s fine - I’m not expecting to attend sprint demos. My hope would be that once they have their direction and framework for abilities more solid, that we would see an increase in the number of combat stuff in monthly spotlights.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Can't please all of the people all of the time.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Otr wrote: »
    By the way... how do people select their target in a tab targeting game? When you have 10 enemies to choose from?
    You press TAB multiple times until you see it selected? Or you click on it with your mouse?

    It depends on the game, but normally, you have both options.

    In games where you don't want to change direction, usually you tab repeatedly if the enemy is moving around behind you, in my experience (so that they can't cause you to do unintended things with your mouse positioning).

    Otherwise clicking is good.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Otr wrote: »
    By the way... how do people select their target in a tab targeting game? When you have 10 enemies to choose from?
    You press TAB multiple times until you see it selected? Or you click on it with your mouse?
    In L2 "tab action" had an almost melee range, so everyone mainly clicked on their targets. And usually a party would have the main "clicker" and other dps characters would assist off of their target.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    People didn't have a lot of confidence of their direction of action combat or were worried. Tab is not hard to do, you target a enemy and use a skill. The feel of action combat is not easily to nail and make it feel good or have the right curve of player skill. So they simply have showed they can do it and if im not mistake basic attacks always worked like that in the first place there was no tab targeting for it (unsure about range though).

    So I'm unsure how they would be misleading if it follows the same thing they did in alpha one with how the basic melee attacks worked being you hit a button and do some attacks.

    Basics attacks don't make a mmorpgs combat system tis a tiny part of it, but the basic attacks and effort they put into it id say are very good. People trying to compare to new world saying you will have 3 abilities and basic attacks i feel have not watched any of the alpha one gameplay or are new to keeping up with the development.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    People didn't have a lot of confidence of their direction of action combat or were worried. Tab is not hard to do, you target a enemy and use a skill. The feel of action combat is not easily to nail and make it feel good or have the right curve of player skill. So they simply have showed they can do it and if im not mistake basic attacks always worked like that in the first place there was no tab targeting for it (unsure about range though).

    So I'm unsure how they would be misleading if it follows the same thing they did in alpha one with how the basic melee attacks worked being you hit a button and do some attacks.

    Basics attacks don't make a mmorpgs combat system tis a tiny part of it, but the basic attacks and effort they put into it id say are very good. People trying to compare to new world saying you will have 3 abilities and basic attacks i feel have not watched any of the alpha one gameplay or are new to keeping up with the development.

    You are in fact mistaken about a lot of things you have said here relative to Ashes.

    I make no claims about your previous experiences or the validity of those. They just don't apply.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Otr wrote: »
    By the way... how do people select their target in a tab targeting game? When you have 10 enemies to choose from?
    You press TAB multiple times until you see it selected? Or you click on it with your mouse?

    In terms of button presses, there are usually options.

    You can (in many games) set a button to target the following,
    Closest enemy
    Most distant (in range) enemy
    Closest ally
    Most distant (in range) ally
    Lowest HP (in range) ally
    Most recent enemy to deal damage to you
    Closest enemy that has you targeted
    Highest HP (in range) enemy
    Highest HP (in range) ally

    There are a few others, but you get the point. Most games bind the first one to tab as standard, and as such most players only use that one, often not even knowing others exist (tab target is about pressing tab - right?).

    Then there is the role of a Main Assist - a player in a group or raid that the DPS in said group or raid target, which puts that players target as your secondary target (or targets target, as it is often called). This is the same thing NiKr mentioned from L2 a few posts up

    If you have an enemy targeted and they have one of your allies as their target (or if you target an ally and they have an enemy targeted), any offensive spell will hit the enemy, and any beneficial spell will hit your ally that is targeted.

    Clicking is sometimes the best option if you know exactly who it is you want to target, and there are no obstacles in the way, but sometimes (especially if things are moving) it is easier to use one of the above. Need to target the boss? Hit your key to target Highest HP (in range) enemy. Need to get some emergency heals out? use Lowest HP (in range) ally. Have a short term buff up that you want to cast on the tank? Highest HP (in range) ally. Unsure of who just cast that fireball on you and want to go after them? Most recent enemy to deal damage to you is what you want.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    People didn't have a lot of confidence of their direction of action combat or were worried. Tab is not hard to do, you target a enemy and use a skill. The feel of action combat is not easily to nail and make it feel good or have the right curve of player skill. So they simply have showed they can do it and if im not mistake basic attacks always worked like that in the first place there was no tab targeting for it (unsure about range though).

    So I'm unsure how they would be misleading if it follows the same thing they did in alpha one with how the basic melee attacks worked being you hit a button and do some attacks.

    Basics attacks don't make a mmorpgs combat system tis a tiny part of it, but the basic attacks and effort they put into it id say are very good. People trying to compare to new world saying you will have 3 abilities and basic attacks i feel have not watched any of the alpha one gameplay or are new to keeping up with the development.

    You are in fact mistaken about a lot of things you have said here relative to Ashes.

    I make no claims about your previous experiences or the validity of those. They just don't apply.

    What are you even saying, the adjusted combat in Alpha 1 by the end do to feedback, they adjusted combat again do to feedback trying to get something people are happy about. What the hell are you even saying, honestly its getting more difficult to to take what you say seriously.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    People didn't have a lot of confidence of their direction of action combat or were worried. Tab is not hard to do, you target a enemy and use a skill. The feel of action combat is not easily to nail and make it feel good or have the right curve of player skill. So they simply have showed they can do it and if im not mistake basic attacks always worked like that in the first place there was no tab targeting for it (unsure about range though).

    So I'm unsure how they would be misleading if it follows the same thing they did in alpha one with how the basic melee attacks worked being you hit a button and do some attacks.

    Basics attacks don't make a mmorpgs combat system tis a tiny part of it, but the basic attacks and effort they put into it id say are very good. People trying to compare to new world saying you will have 3 abilities and basic attacks i feel have not watched any of the alpha one gameplay or are new to keeping up with the development.

    You are in fact mistaken about a lot of things you have said here relative to Ashes.

    I make no claims about your previous experiences or the validity of those. They just don't apply.

    What are you even saying, the adjusted combat in Alpha 1 by the end do to feedback, they adjusted combat again do to feedback trying to get something people are happy about. What the hell are you even saying, honestly its getting more difficult to to take what you say seriously.

    I believe it is true to say that we are both becoming a waste of each other's time, but for clarity...

    "Basics attacks don't make a mmorpgs combat system tis a tiny part of it, but the basic attacks and effort they put into it id say are very good. People trying to compare to new world saying you will have 3 abilities and basic attacks i feel have not watched any of the alpha one gameplay or are new to keeping up with the development."

    The abilities used in combat in Alpha-1 for Archetypes other than Mage were not necessarily abilities that were used consistently.

    In fact, if you look at just what we have in the last trailer, if fighting a single enemy at close range, a WeaponMaster does not have a clear reason to even do anything other than their Basic Attack, maybe, MAYBE if the enemy did a move that gave them enough reason to dodge backward far enough for the Hammer to hit in time.

    Basic attacks are not a 'tiny part' of Ashes' combat system as I understand it right now. Can you please clarify what it is other than your previous experience that makes you think they will be 'a tiny part of it'? Note that you are the one claiming that the Alpha-1 gameplay implied that people are misunderstanding the development, so if you find it necessary to backtrack and claim anything about how Alpha-1 didn't have enough abilities or whatever, just don't bother.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    So we are going other then mage then because it makes your point look weak ok then.....

    So I say new world has 3 skills being a complete game and max level. Then I look at AOC and I see a bunch more for a very low level character....You have a ability bar that goes up to 10, when your character gets max level im sure you will have plenty of skills to pick from as well.

    k37qmumzy409.png
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    So we are going other then mage then because it makes your point look weak ok then.....

    So I say new world has 3 skills being a complete game and max level. Then I look at AOC and I see a bunch more for a very low level character....You have a ability bar that goes up to 10, when your character gets max level im sure you will have plenty of skills to pick from as well.

    k37qmumzy409.png

    Yeah alright, that ability bar sure proves me wrong, basic attacks are definitely just a small part of gameplay in Ashes.

    Glad we had this talk.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    If you have some skills you don't use that much in alpha on tank, ok that is fine it still feels clear that as you level you will gain more and we will see what happens as they continue to develop.

    Also mage will get more as they level up.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    So we are going other then mage then because it makes your point look weak ok then.....

    So I say new world has 3 skills being a complete game and max level. Then I look at AOC and I see a bunch more for a very low level character....You have a ability bar that goes up to 10, when your character gets max level im sure you will have plenty of skills to pick from as well.

    k37qmumzy409.png

    Yeah alright, that ability bar sure proves me wrong, basic attacks are definitely just a small part of gameplay in Ashes.

    Glad we had this talk.

    When you are trying to compare a low level as the final product of ashes gameplay. Do you understand mmorpgs? do you understand the difference between a low level and a high level in terms of abilities?
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Lets say the maximum amount of active skills you can have is 10 for one hotbar. That gives you plenty to do besides just your default basic attack.... That is like over 3 times what NW had....

    yrd1vuedyopq.png

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    The Action Bar has 10 slots.
    At max level there will be more abilities to choose from to place in those 10 slots.
    Of course, each Active Skill in those 10 slots can also have augments on them.
    Plus, whatever Weapon Skills. And gear enchantments.

    I don't know what that has to do with the context of the discussion before number of abilities on the Action Bar was broached.
  • palabanapalabana Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Today we show off the base attack changes. And they look good, and the progress from alot of feed back in alpha 1 is apparent. Some of my base attack feed back from alpha 1 was addressed. Its nice to see.


    But did we see everything we needed to see, of base attacks. In the hybrid system. Ashes is aiming for today? Id like to see more of the movement, and base attacking in tab targeting mode. I would like these peice by peice updates to cover how each peice fits into the whole of a hybrid system. The stream today looked great for an upcoming action combat mmo. I think in future updates, it should be important to show each aspect of what is being covered. Show it in action combat mode. And in tab target mode.

    How am i supposed to make suggestions on how to make these base attacks more fitting in tab targeting, if that is my perfered way to play, if i dont even get to see it used that way.

    You are assuming that the basic attacks will have tab target mode which I believe it won't have. Judging by what they have shown, I believe the basic attacks will only have one mode of targeting.

    You need to keep in mind that the action/tab camera toggle in Alpha-1 is purely for testing purposes. They never planned to bring that toggle over to the final game.

    Hybrid doesn't mean you can choose between tab or action anytime you want. That's not how it works and that's not how they've explained it for the past few years either.

    Skills are either tab or action and not both. Therefore, it only makes sense if basic attacks are either tab or action and not both.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Idk.
    palabana wrote: »

    You are assuming that the basic attacks will have tab target mode which I believe it won't have. Judging by what they have shown, I believe the basic attacks will only have one mode of targeting.

    Im okay with this if that is how they are intending base attacks to function, however. If base attacks do not do any form of auto tracking, and having an enemy targeted through whatever the tab target system is, will base attacking just leave you in place attacking nothing, and does that translate to ranged base attacking? That would make all ranged base attacks a "skill shot" in a way.
    palabana wrote: »

    You need to keep in mind that the action/tab camera toggle in Alpha-1 is purely for testing purposes. They never planned to bring that toggle over to the final game.

    There will be a toggle for having your mouse on screen. As to interact with the UI in general, i dont see any problems with this mouse on screen also functioning as a tab targeting mode in a hybrid system. The system isnt finalized, yes. But i expect there to still be 2 "modes" of use for that system. As playing action combat with mouse on screen takes away your ability to look around, and clicking something to tab target is extreamly common. I dont know how you would do both without 2 "modes" of control.
    palabana wrote: »
    Skills are either tab or action and not both. Therefore, it only makes sense if basic attacks are either tab or action and not both.

    I somewhat agree with this. And it supports my main point. If the base attacks are "action only functionality" then the presentation should explain that if they are going to show us the base attacks....



    Im not arguing action combat bad, tab target good. Im saying why show us a part of the system, if you dont EXPLAIN that part of the system to us. Oooo pretty animations, is not the monthly updates i want. I want some information on the state of development.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Can’t please all of the people all of the time.
    The info you want will probably appear once they are close to opening Alpha 2.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Can’t please all of the people all of the time.
    The info you want will probably appear once they are close to opening Alpha 2.

    I know, thats why i left this as it was for a while. Said what i had to say
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