How to give Action Fans Active Blocking without Breaking Waterfall Stat Blocking

We had a very in-depth discussion today on the Discord about how to give action fans active blocking without breaking passive (waterfall or tab) blocking.

Keep in mind this discussion is on shield use, not tanks using shields.

1: Active Blocking should give you a flat damage reduction on incoming damage. This damage would be based on the shield type/size/quality. So a small round shield might reduce 100 points of damage on every attack coming in, and a tower shield might reduce 500 points of damage on every attack coming in.

There is alternative variant to this where you could have active blocking give 100% damage reduction up to the set threshold/exhaustion level (see #3)

2: Even while active blocking your passive blocking can still trigger for whatever percentage passive blocking gives to damage reduction. So if you have a block rating of 30% then 30% of the time you'd block the attack, regardless of if you are active blocking or not. This would then give whatever damage reduction you give on blocks (100% or less as designed)

3: Instead of creating an exhaustion bar or a stamina bar for blocking, the "exhaustion" bar is a set amount of damage that shield can take in any one gulp. So you can hide behind your buckler for 1000 damage or your tower shield for 3000. After that damage is capped your ability to go into your active blocking stance goes on cooldown and your shield drops and you can no longer actively block (but you can still passively/waterfall block). Smaller shields recharge this HP pool faster than bigger shields.

4: The shield itself has a set amount of HP (can be in the hundreds of thousands of HP) but it has to be repaired. The more you block, the more HP damage the shield takes.

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Comments

JamesSunderland

Noaani wrote: »

Vaknar wrote: »

What a neat and very well articulated idea! It's cool seeing ideas that are elaborate and well described in such a concise way

Do you see any potential downsides to doing it this way?

There are a number of ideas in this thread.

If you are talking about the OP's idea, the only real downside is that it forces active blocking on to everyone. In a game where action or tab target should be a player choice, forcing all defense to be active (ie, action combat) goes against the goals and stated design of the game.

OP option 2 doesn't necessarily force active blocking on to everyone, as passive blocking would still be a thing and work together with active blocking, and who knows you could give players customization possibilities like:

sacrificing your passive block to get more duration or less cooldown or more % damage reduction from blocking for your active block, or on the other hand, sacrificing your active block in order to get more block chance or more % damage reduction from blocking.

Dreadful_Beast

Ok, so I'm gonna explain a little on my favorite experience in an MMO involving blocking.

As someone who normally plays a tank, the game I have favored the most in this aspect was TERA. The active blocking with a resource bar (resolve) had a max of 1500 points. Each time you blocked, as well as every second it was held, it consumed 100 points.
There were 2 ways to recover it...Overtime and by using a counter attack after a successful block.
This meant that you couldn't simply stand there and do nothing. You had to continuously attack to maintain aggro, and block at the right time while keeping a boss positioned right for the dps.

With that being said, here's how I think active and passive blocking could work together...

Whether someone wants to focus on active blocking vs passive blocking, should be entirely up to the user. What I mean by this, is that it could have to do with a points system.

Player #1 puts all points into active block, leaving little to no passive block, but a successful active block mitigates full damage.

Player #2 puts all into passive block, giving them a much higher chance to block without using active block. Perhaps they also receive an extra boost to overall damage reduction to make up for the rng aspect of it.

Perhaps you can switch between these outside of combat. Passive block could be more useful in group PvP, whereas active blocking could be superior for tanking PvE content (based on Player skill).

Just my thoughts on this. I also wouldn't mind a resource bar similar to what I mentioned before.

Azraya

Just have active blocking slow your movement speed while blocking and reduce a flat percentage of incoming damage, depending on the shield type. Your passive blocking would be seperate from this. Give each type of shield a set amount of damage it can absorb. Once it reaches that point have it throw your active block on cooldown for a short amount of time. And you can also really play with shields by having certain ones give bonuses like a decrease in active block cooldown time, or a shield with low damage absorbtion but great CC protection.

Dygz

I mean, I guess you could add a Block boost on a shield, but...
I think active Block will probably be a Primary Archetype skill - possibly a Weapon Skill for Shields.

I'm curious to see whether I'll prefer Active Skill shields over Action Combat Block.

Mag7spy

I understand not wanting to be holding up block the entire time and that is all you do as a tank. They just need to design it so its more akin to a dodge then just last a bit longer and different levels of effectiveness based on how you do your stats. That why you can fight and do active blocks time to time as well with a good mix. And it shouldn't be just limited to a shield, but a shield should have the strongest form of it of course.

my 2 cents

SirChancelot

CROW3 wrote: »

falcorpix wrote: »

All this to say that, Tera raised my standards for tanking way too high that im having a hard time having fun tanking anywhere else and I'd love AoC to break my curse.

That's cool - I'm going to have to youtuibe some examples. The vast majority of my tanking is in WoW and a bit of FFXIV (which feels like DDR to me).

Most fun I ever had tanking was in wildstar
The engineer was so different than every other tank I've played.

Shoelid

I like 1 2 and 3, and would add that I think blocking should reduce threat on monsters attacking you. This would help improve the combat loop of a tank pulling groups for his party, and it would make thematic sense for the game.
Don't like 4. I think active blocking needs a resource attatched to it in order for it to work.

I also think that active blocking and passive blocking should share the same stats.

Overall I'm unsure if that active blocking fits in AOC much, and they'll have to talk in significant detail to convince me otherwise. It's concerning to me that our first combat update in a long while has active blocking without any detail given on it.

I could write an essay on all this but I'll spare everybody the wall of text.

PenguinPaladin

Blocking could lose functionality as it is held. Making timing your blocks important, limiting its effectivness to the players awarness

Leiloni

Seems easier to do it this way - take WoW as an example (stats here are on the shield) - block rating stat gives a percent chance to block, amount of damage negated is based on block value+armor total. That's for passive waterfall stat blocking.

Then for "active block" RMB, you have 100% chance to block, but amount blocked is not 100%. Maybe it's the same as passive block and the benefit is it's guaranteed, or maybe the amount is higher (maybe it gets a small amount more than stats, like 1.2x stats or whatever).

Pagemaster

@Dygz argues just to argue.
They start talking like they have some sort of grasp on the concept of this game, but you soon realize they just spew their own opinions as if they were facts.
After chatting with them, you'll realize your point comes full circle and the conversation was meaningless.

Homie basically called me out for assuming block was a weapon skill linked to weapons. (Which i wasn't) But here they are:

Dygz wrote: »

possibly a Weapon Skill for Shield

Just a troll. From here on out I'm ignoring anything they post.

PenguinPaladin

Pagemaster wrote: »

@Dygz argues just to argue.
They start talking like they have some sort of grasp on the concept of this game, but you soon realize they just spew their own opinions as if they were facts.
After chatting with them, you'll realize your point comes full circle and the conversation was meaningless.

Homie basically called me out for assuming block was a weapon skill linked to weapons. (Which i wasn't) But here they are:

Dygz wrote: »

possibly a Weapon Skill for Shield

Just a troll. From here on out I'm ignoring anything they post.

Dygz tends to know alot about the game overall, can just be confusing sometimes, as they seem to be very, word for word, specific and never clarifies anything... it does lead to alot of circular arguments tho. idk

Pagemaster

To add meaningful conversation to the post, I just did more research on tanks, im open to having active blocking, as long as they balance both active blocking (with directional damage) and "tab" blocking .

My only concern would be directional damage and off-tanks picking up adds. Active blocking and directional damage shouldnt be a guaranteed needed thing to do - especially if you have to run around. You will be taking hits from behind.

And from the wiki it states that actively blocking directional damage may add a bonus to damage reduction. It may not be a "needed" thing to do. Which I agree with.

Another fun fact I came across, you don't HAVE to wield a shield to be a tank, it just makes it easier.

I like the idea of the 2nd option for balancing purposes, but I think it needs to be balanced and broken down a bit more to be fully fleshed out.

Dygz

Pagemaster wrote: »

@Dygz argues just to argue.
They start talking like they have some sort of grasp on the concept of this game, but you soon realize they just spew their own opinions as if they were facts.
After chatting with them, you'll realize your point comes full circle and the conversation was meaningless.

Homie basically called me out for assuming block was a weapon skill linked to weapons. (Which i wasn't) But here they are:

Dygz wrote: »

possibly a Weapon Skill for Shield

Just a troll. From here on out I'm ignoring anything they post.

LMAO
There's a difference between assuming something is a certain way and suggesting something could possibly be a certain way.

I think what I said is that it appears that the Active Block we saw in the June 2022 Combat Demo appears to be Fighter Active Skill rather than Weapon Skill.
I don't think I told you that it's impossible for Shields to have a Block boost on them or that it's impossible that Shields will include Active Block.

But, we would have to look at the specific quotes for the context, rather than rely on your paraphrase of what you think I said.

Just looking at our previous conversation....
I did not "call you out" for assuming Block is a weapon skill linked to weapons.

Pagemaster wrote: »

Intrepid just made every tank action combat.
Not only that, every single player can block now.
How does that fit in with tanks?

Pagemaster wrote: »

@Dygz if you have to activley block with daggers and a 2handed sword, you're going to have to actively block with a shield.
Like every active blocking situation, to block, you have to be facing the direction in which the damage is coming from.
Did you watch the video? They showed the blocking in it.

You stated that people have to Block with Daggers and 2-Handed Swords.
I replied that you are assuming that the Block we saw in the Demo came from the weapons rather than the Fighter Primary Archetype.
And I also argued against your insistance that people with access to Active Block must use Active Block.
Here, you admit you recently learned from the wiki that Tanks don't have to use Shields as a weapon. Even though I had previously told you that any class can use any weapon. So, no, Tanks are not obligated to using a Shield.
Of course, the Tank Primary Archetype might also have Active Block, rather than the Dodge of a Rogue.
In that case, a Tank might be able to Active Block with any weapon. And while Daggers or Great Swords may not add to the Block score - a Shield might very well boost the Active Block of a Tank or Fighter.

All that being said, that doesn't mean that every Tank will choose to use to use Active Block. Having accs to an ability does not mean every player ust use that ability or tactic.
Evasion Tanks might prefer to Evade rather than Block.

None of what I wrote "calls you out".
I'm just participating in a discussion by saying it's not as clear cut as your conclusions presumed.
We are still missing lots of details about how Active Block works in Ashes.
We know that the Weaponmaster was able to Active Block with the weapons he wielded.
We still need to learn more about the specifics of Active Block rather than jump to conclusions.

kudaja

I think Block (Armor Rating + Block(30% of armor rating) = Reduced amount of dmg taken) then put Evasion as a % of hits landing without blocking based on stats or weight of armor to balance the difference in Armor damage taken.

Mag7spy

PenguinPaladin

Dygz wrote: »

Pagemaster wrote: »

@Dygz argues just to argue.
They start talking like they have some sort of grasp on the concept of this game, but you soon realize they just spew their own opinions as if they were facts.
After chatting with them, you'll realize your point comes full circle and the conversation was meaningless.

Homie basically called me out for assuming block was a weapon skill linked to weapons. (Which i wasn't) But here they are:

Dygz wrote: »

possibly a Weapon Skill for Shield

Just a troll. From here on out I'm ignoring anything they post.

LMAO
There's a difference between assuming something is a certain way and suggesting something could possibly be a certain way.

I think what I said is that it appears that the Active Block we saw in the June 2022 Combat Demo appears to be Fighter Active Skill rather than Weapon Skill.
I don't think I told you that it's impossible for Shields to have a Block boost on them or that it's impossible that Shields will include Active Block.

But, we would have to look at the specific quotes for the context, rather than rely on your paraphrase of what you think I said.
Just looking at our previous conversation....
I did not "call you out" for assuming Block is a weapon skill linked to weapons.

Pagemaster wrote: »

Intrepid just made every tank action combat.
Not only that, every single player can block now.
How does that fit in with tanks?

Pagemaster wrote: »

@Dygz if you have to activley block with daggers and a 2handed sword, you're going to have to actively block with a shield.
Like every active blocking situation, to block, you have to be facing the direction in which the damage is coming from.
Did you watch the video? They showed the blocking in it.

You stated that people have to Block with Daggers and 2-Handed Swords.
I replied that you are assuming that the Block we saw in the Demo came from the weapons rather than the Fighter Primary Archetype.
And I also argued against your insistance that people with access to Active Block must use Active Block.
Here, you admit you recently learned from the wiki that Tanks don't have to use Shields as a weapon. Even though I had previously told you that any class can use any weapon. So, no, Tanks are not obligated to using a Shield.
Of course, the Tank Primary Archetype might also have Active Block, rather than the Dodge of a Rogue.
In that case, a Tank might be able to Active Block with any weapon. And while Daggers or Great Swords may not add to the Block score - a Shield might very well boost the Active Block of a Tank or Fighter.

All that being said, that doesn't mean that every Tank will choose to use to use Active Block. Having accs to an ability does not mean every player ust use that ability or tactic.
Evasion Tanks might prefer to Evade rather than Block.

None of what I wrote "calls you out".
I'm just participating in a discussion by saying it's not as clear cut as your conclusions presumed.
We are still missing lots of details about how Active Block works in Ashes.
We know that the Weaponmaster was able to Active Block with the weapons he wielded.
We still need to learn more about the specifics of Active Block rather than jump to conclusions.

This guy here sounds like a smart man.

truelyyy

OP's arguments sounds like a reasonable systems for combat, combining an action block system that's functional and limited with the passive tab stats part of blocking. Although I disagree with point 4 with having to repair the shield too much.

truelyyy

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Pagemaster wrote: »

@Dygz argues just to argue.
They start talking like they have some sort of grasp on the concept of this game, but you soon realize they just spew their own opinions as if they were facts.
After chatting with them, you'll realize your point comes full circle and the conversation was meaningless.

Homie basically called me out for assuming block was a weapon skill linked to weapons. (Which i wasn't) But here they are:

Dygz wrote: »

possibly a Weapon Skill for Shield

Just a troll. From here on out I'm ignoring anything they post.

Dygz tends to know alot about the game overall, can just be confusing sometimes, as they seem to be very, word for word, specific and never clarifies anything... it does lead to alot of circular arguments tho. idk

Sorry but Dygz doesn't make sense in his posts. On one hand he talks about how RPGs must have RnG and then on the other he says I never said you can't have an RPG without RNG. I'm sure he means well but he just says things with no meaning or makes no sense half the time.

Also he keeps making comments about twitch skills as if RPGs are all turned based strategy games. There's always twitch skills involved in a PvP MMORPG. Sure action might have more aim based but a tab game still can have complex multi-button skill rotations whilst concetrating on your positioning, hp, reaction times, awareness etc. At the end of the day it's a game with RPG elements not an RPG story with game elements.

mcstackerson

I'd prefer we create a different playstyle for players who don't want to use active block. I think they should roll all passive mitigation into one stat and create a vamp/lifesteal playstyle as on optional playstyle that doesn't use active block. Change the focus to recover instead of damage prevention.

I just think it's a little odd and probably confusing to try to use the same stat in 2 different ways.

Dygz

truely wrote: »

Sorry but Dygz doesn't make sense in his posts. On one hand he talks about how RPGs must have RnG and then on the other he says I never said you can't have an RPG without RNG. I'm sure he means well but he just says things with no meaning or makes no sense half the time.

Also he keeps making comments about twitch skills as if RPGs are all turned based strategy games. There's always twitch skills involved in a PvP MMORPG. Sure action might have more aim based but a tab game still can have complex multi-button skill rotations whilst concetrating on your positioning, hp, reaction times, awareness etc. At the end of the day it's a game with RPG elements not an RPG story with game elements.

I try to stay away from absolutes. And if you catch me state an absolute as hyperbole, I will readily admit that there are exceptions to every rule and I was speaking in hyperbole.
But, I bet the quote of me talking about RNG in RPGs is a generalization, rather than an absolute.
Post the quote where you think I said RPGs must have RNG and let's see.
Also, post a quote where I stated that RPGs can't have player twitch skills.

I think all you've done here is demonstrated that you tweaked what you thought I wrote instead of comprehending what I actually wrote, but...
I'm human. I could have mis-stated something.
Feel free to post quotes if you really want to check me.

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