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How to give Action Fans Active Blocking without Breaking Waterfall Stat Blocking
Jahlon
Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
We had a very in-depth discussion today on the Discord about how to give action fans active blocking without breaking passive (waterfall or tab) blocking.
Keep in mind this discussion is on shield use, not tanks using shields.
1: Active Blocking should give you a flat damage reduction on incoming damage. This damage would be based on the shield type/size/quality. So a small round shield might reduce 100 points of damage on every attack coming in, and a tower shield might reduce 500 points of damage on every attack coming in.
There is alternative variant to this where you could have active blocking give 100% damage reduction up to the set threshold/exhaustion level (see #3)
2: Even while active blocking your passive blocking can still trigger for whatever percentage passive blocking gives to damage reduction. So if you have a block rating of 30% then 30% of the time you'd block the attack, regardless of if you are active blocking or not. This would then give whatever damage reduction you give on blocks (100% or less as designed)
3: Instead of creating an exhaustion bar or a stamina bar for blocking, the "exhaustion" bar is a set amount of damage that shield can take in any one gulp. So you can hide behind your buckler for 1000 damage or your tower shield for 3000. After that damage is capped your ability to go into your active blocking stance goes on cooldown and your shield drops and you can no longer actively block (but you can still passively/waterfall block). Smaller shields recharge this HP pool faster than bigger shields.
4: The shield itself has a set amount of HP (can be in the hundreds of thousands of HP) but it has to be repaired. The more you block, the more HP damage the shield takes.
Keep in mind this discussion is on shield use, not tanks using shields.
1: Active Blocking should give you a flat damage reduction on incoming damage. This damage would be based on the shield type/size/quality. So a small round shield might reduce 100 points of damage on every attack coming in, and a tower shield might reduce 500 points of damage on every attack coming in.
There is alternative variant to this where you could have active blocking give 100% damage reduction up to the set threshold/exhaustion level (see #3)
2: Even while active blocking your passive blocking can still trigger for whatever percentage passive blocking gives to damage reduction. So if you have a block rating of 30% then 30% of the time you'd block the attack, regardless of if you are active blocking or not. This would then give whatever damage reduction you give on blocks (100% or less as designed)
3: Instead of creating an exhaustion bar or a stamina bar for blocking, the "exhaustion" bar is a set amount of damage that shield can take in any one gulp. So you can hide behind your buckler for 1000 damage or your tower shield for 3000. After that damage is capped your ability to go into your active blocking stance goes on cooldown and your shield drops and you can no longer actively block (but you can still passively/waterfall block). Smaller shields recharge this HP pool faster than bigger shields.
4: The shield itself has a set amount of HP (can be in the hundreds of thousands of HP) but it has to be repaired. The more you block, the more HP damage the shield takes.
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Comments
I don't believe this unique system brings joy.
This sounds like tab target blocking, tbh.
I can't for the life of me remember which game it was (I think it was a random Russian MMO I played for a few months, many years ago), but the game had a durability on shields that wore down as you blocked, and tanks had a block ability on a 15 or so second cooldown.
Velocity should be added to the ranged weapons in the same effective weight is added to the melee weapons. So a bow may be faster to reload, but its velocity is less than the crossbow bolts. A crossbow may be slower to reload, but the bolt velocity is higher than that of an arrow.
The weight system needs to be thorough, so parry for non-shields which just means parry then have an action afterwards whether it be a counter attack or a manuever within a fight sequence.
Thank you all who were an involved in the conversation on discord and thanks Jahlon for making this thread.
Please posters, dont derail the thread its meant for weapons as it was on discord.
So, wait, is the thread about 'blocking with shields', about 'blocking with weapons', or about 'weight'?
I expect other weapons will also use Active Block.
Just because they showcased blocking with a sword, this is really about what we could do differently.
The shield could have a bar, but the idea behind the "durability" will work similar to stamina, but vary based on the shield type i.e big shield take more hits. Make the blocking a bit more active style but balancing it so as well.
of on coming damage (not all damage) and then eventually breaks where you got to repair it.
I feel the amount of the damage being reduce should be base on the quality of shield
Item rarities in Ashes of Creation.
Poor.[36]
Common.[37]
Uncommon.[38]
Rare.[39]
Epic.[40]
Legendary.[41]
Also with adding an specific enchant that will allow it to
Dmg the attacker ( obviously not much)
Strengthen the durability of the shield so its harder to break, but take more on coming dmg
Reduce more of incoming dmg, but makes the shield less durable
Developer would have to find a balance other wise I can totally see every pvp guy carrying a shield because its meta.
just my 2 cents though.
What I would personally like to see (note; like to see, not expect to see), is a system where armor, weapons and shields all have passive defensive stats on them, but also have active defensive stats. The bigger and bulkier the gear you are wearing, the more passive defense you have. The lighter your gear, the more active defense you have. This would apply to both dodge and block - and potentially parry and riposte as well (parry is blocking with a weapon btw - and a riposte is the first attack you make after a parry).
What this would mean is that each player can kind of set their own limit for how much of their defense is active, and how much is passive. If you have a lighter weapon (rapier, as an example) and a small shield (buckler, perhaps), and are in fairly light armor (leather, chain, what ever), then you probably have average at best passive defense, but your active defense is on point. This makes a little sense to me, as you have a reasonable range of movement with that gear.
On the other hand, if you are in full plate, with a tower shield, your active defenses would be less viable, but your passive would be much higher.
In terms of how to make a stat affect an active defense like dodge, block, parry or riposte, rather than making block a stance you activate where you hide behind your shield, you make it so that these defensive actions are used in direct relation to an offensive action - and the amount of damage reduced is based on the timing of your defensive action in relation to the moment where the offensive action you are blocking would make contact. One block is able to block exactly one attack - if timed right.
Then you make it so the stats on the gear to increase/decrease your active defensive abilities relate to the speed at which an active defense is activated. In lighter gear, this could be instant, but in heavier gear it could take a second or more (being effectively worthless for all but the biggest, slowest attacks).
A good player may well be able to block or dodge most - or all - attacks from a less skilled player, but this is a good thing. However, while they are using active defense, they are unable to attack (which brings up the value of parry and riposte being in the mix).
The conversation stemmed from some of us (I’m vocal about it) thinking that blocking with daggers doesn’t make sense in their weighted feel philosophy.
Daggers should have active parry, no block.
Shields should have block.
But it all ties into their weighted feel philosophy and it being thorough in their weapons portions of the combat system.
Blocking should be relatively direction based by which way your character is facing for the block. If someone attacks from behind and you can block it, that just seems like an odd choice for design.
With what was currently said in the recent video with how directional movement affects your attack animation, blocking could and should be no different other than the side of the body and item used for blocking. By this i refer to shield block vs weapon block. There is some variables involved which suggest choosing a hand for where you want your shield to go (assuming one uses a shield over a weapon).
So there is a few situations that are based on character choice, blocking % dmg reduction with a weapon vs blocking with a shield and the effect of resource consumed as well stagger mechanic if implemented. It doesn't have to be a CC effect where the user of the block is at a huge disadvantage for X amount of time but they could take a penalty elsewhere preventing the abuse of the mechanic while allowing them to continue useful contributions to combat without being temporarily incapacitated.
I wonder if they'll give key bind options for press and hold vs toggle
Without a doubt, gear selection and acquisition matters more with passive defense than with active, and gear acquisition is a major component of an MMORPG (arguable *the* major component).
As such, I am almost always against anything that lessens the value and impact of it.
When you say both? you referring to using one or the other? OR having both currently active/available at any given time?
regardless...
Going off the OP:
You can still actively block and have stats/attributes affect the blocking mechanics with additional improvement from abilities for those situations that require a bit more improvement to blocking. But I would definitely keep it a positional frontal block as being a 360 block mechanic just wouldn't feel right to me.
But I am still very much so in favour of a stagger/shield breaker mechanic to help reduce how much someone can block regardless of class and items used.
I just hope the studio doesn't go down the path of burst damage and burst healing so that defensive feature can stay relevant before becoming a game of cat and mouse with pvp balancing. I find burst dps one of the least engaging methods for combat in games like this. I'd rather combat come down to more about skill and choices rather than popping cool downs and bursting especially with the goal for large player battles but I am starting to tangentially go off a bit from the active blocking thread haha.
With how the shapes of hit boxes are, it wouldn't be that difficult (relatively speaking) to have it engaged as frontal blocking opposed to a stat based mitigation 360 coverage. It doesn't even have to be a 180, it could be less coverage than that depending on stance and positioning with implementation goals.
A TL:DR version would be that active blocks act similar to attacks in that they are activated by a player, any will block the first melee attack that happens in about a 0.5 second time frame. From there, you can gear up to make your active block either better or worse, but the trade off will always be your passive defense. This lets players pick between better active defense but worse passive, or better passive defense but worse active.
There is more to it, but in terms of the general idea, that is a fairly decent outline of what I'd like to see.
oh I understand what active blocking is.. lol that TL:DR was more of an unnecessary elaboration
Yes they could be interwoven into the same system depending on animations and functions of said both active and passive re-actives. I feel it could too much rely onto RNG with passive procs for better blocking which takes away from skill as it relies more on luck in hopes for those passive procs. I definitely get what you're saying and going off the OP with how the passives could enhance it randomly.
If the design of combat is going the way of luck, RNG and procs for combat, it is definitely going to remove some of the skill set players have in the game where it can rely too heavily on such a factor causing a mess for balancing down the road. I would definitely prefer a system where I trigger my enhancements opposed to luck and RNG. This goes back to what I was tangentially saying about burst and procs in pvp for heals and dps. I dont think it should apply to tanking either. RNG and balance do not necessarily benefit one and another that often but not impossible.
That's my opinion anyways
There is no issue with "full action combat blocking" or parrying or evading at all, but I will assume you simple lack knowledge about tab-target combat and doesn't understand how impactful to the balance of a Hybrid combat such as Ashes' which includes both tab and action skills this would be.
Without rng stat checks such as block/parry/evasion to check tab-target skills, it would straight up make it the meta over action skills(unless overly buffed breaking balance) that can be escaped through movement/positioning and requires aiming, this isn't about being "lazy" or "boring".its about core funcionality and balancing.
I believe what fits hybrid combat the most is OP's 2° option having both types of block overlapping, example:
Active shield block = 50% dmg reduction X sec duration X sec cooldown
Passive shield block = 50% dmg reduction X% chance.
Currently, the wiki still have the stats related to those rng defences that were present in alpha 1
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Stats
Aren't we all sinners?
Yes, but as of now the games direction is hybrid which requires mixing the two.
Which is why they combined split body with root and “weighted feel” and that weighted feel seems to be the anchor to the combat system. Combat is going to have mass it seems to tie in both worlds.
I like this topic. How can the game be balanced and still be keept interesting for both parties.
My opinion and soloution on this is that holding RMB per say to active block in "action mode". would be the same as flagging/toggle the player as entering a defence stance (slower movment speed, break on attack,, can or cannot be directional, etc) in "tab target mode". This should be fast and smooth to swap between the modes just as holding the RMB.
The system you mentioned are good, but I'd like for them to be mixed to create a more homogeneous experience for both parties.
And just to add my opinion about it as well.
1: For it to only be something that is available for action based combat is not something I'd like to be a thing. Instead having a "defence stance" and as I mentioned before to toggle these benefits and to be scaled with weapon type / shield type. I think is the way to go.
2: It's just a good system that I think should be the baseline of actually having a shield in the first place. This is what I at least associate with blocking/having a shield in MMO. It is proven and tested to work well in other games, That could be enhanced by the active choice of entering defence stance if wanted.
The issue I can see with the things I've mentioned is is that swapping between the stances might be tedious for "tab target" if it's something you toggle. But I do like it to be an active choice the player makes no matter the playstyle you choose.
Anyway I think this would create the fantasy of being tanky. blocking both a lot of hits and big hits for both types of players and making it an active choice of when to enhance your "blocking" capabilities no matter the class you play. And both types of play would be involved in the same system.
Some people prefer this kind of gameplay (especially for defense), and some don't.
The point of the system outlined was to basically function similar to how we can pick action or tab abilities. Each player can pick basically as much of each as works best for them.
The outline was basically a defensive version of that. If you refer active blocking, have at it - get the gear that works best for it and go.
On the other hand, if you prefer passive blocking, have at it - get the gear that works best for it and go.
I think we can all agree that having both active and passive blocking working at full capacity on a character would be a bit OP. To me, this means that the only way to give players a choice as to how much active or passive they want is to allow them to pick where they want to lie on that line.
It also kind of fits in to Ashes whole thing of player agency.
I get that
The whole point of a defence rating and armour acts as a damage mitigation as well which can just make the blocking passive a bit inferior and not necessary especially when it comes down to " oh if my RNG luck was better I could have blocked that" (assuming they stacked enough points into acquiring a functional % range for the passive to trigger on its frequency they prefer)
That's the thing with stats RNG % chance to trigger as a functioning means for balancing. In terms of a spectrum it goes like this:
low % chance, low pay off = pointless
low % chance, medium pay off = still pointless, leaning towards luck reliance
low % chance, high pay off = reliance on luck to survive
Med % chance, low pay off = still pointless
Med % chance, medium pay off = more reliance on luck than what it's worth
Med % chance, high pay off = more luck and leaning towards burst dependence
High % chance, low pay off = relatively functional but relatively pointless
High % chance, medium pay off = procedural burst dependence
High % chance, high pay off = heavy burst proc dependence on survivability functionality
Now, with those examples provided it still comes to ability functionality, how often that ability will be used, it's pathing for procedurals to trigger and the damage numbers and it's output range allowances.
Base damage works with RNG range off its weapons and stats as an example, Crits work with RNG range etc. Obviously there's room for more grey zones for nuance and I'm not saying RNG and procedural systems are bad, they just set up the game for a lot of complications down the road that can be avoided. I for one prefer knowing i survived or accomplished something because of skill and not an RNG dependence such as these examples but that is my opinion and I respect others and their preferences as we're all different, relatively.
I should be able to build a Py'Rai Ranger with high Dex who has more accuracy than my player twitch skills and my high Dex should hit a Ren'Kai Cleric with low Dex, regardles of that player's twitch skills.
RNG helps determine the outcome.
I should be able to build a Rogue Nikua with high Dex who can Dodge better than my player twitch skills and my high Dex should allow me to Dodge the Lightning Strike of a Vek Mage who has low Dex, regardless of the player twitch skills for accuracy.
There will be less RNG with Action Combat skills, but there will still be some because Ashes is an RPG, not an FPS.
I don’t agree, player still plays a role whether it’s tab or action.
Moving the work to the player and not the paper doll doesn’t remove the fantasy aspect of the game.
One involves an added layer of skills required to become proficient at the game.
Focusing on player twitch skills is an FPS - might be a MOBA.
RPGs are about building characters who have mythological prowess that defy the average abilities of real life Humans.
Specific non-Human races have high Dex while others have low Dex. RNG helps resolve the results when those races are in competition.
Some classes have bonuses for high Dex - which adds to those results. RNG also helps with that.
Doesn't really matter whether you agree. Just like it doesn't matter whether you agree that the Earth is not flat.
Facts are facts.
First Person Shooter is a First Person Shooter. Apex, Call Of Duty, Halo are first person shooters, involves free aiming and mostly firearms.
Just like MOBAs are.. MOBAs. Usually require lanes to play.. like League of Legends and Smite.
A role to play determines what a RPG is. Tank, DPS, Support, Heals are all roles.
Again, a combat system doesn’t null the role you fill it just puts the work on the paper doll or the player.