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Let's TheoryRaid! #1(?) Jormungand vs Xeno'jiiva
Azherae
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
So I'm obviously in a mood (as of this writing) and pretty tired of having entirely theoretical arguments. The other post at the moment is great for macro-concepts, but I'm going down to one. Reference videos!
Jormungand.
No need to watch the video, no need to even know what exactly I'm talking about. Just starting yet another 'data collection/argument' about expectations of raiding, doubling down on the prior question about MMO PvE experiences.
Xeno'jiiva
Without experience with these games I doubt watching the videos will make sense, they're here for quick-reference on timestamps.
For players who expect to favor Tab Target, both of these dragons fly. If you had an ability that you needed to hit the head with, would you expect the situation to be 'I can't do that while it is airborne without switching to Action Mode' in Ashes?
Would you be okay with that?
For players who expect to favor Action Combat, both of these dragons have positional mechanics that would probably force you to put yourself at considerable risk of missing or taking damage, one or the other. If you had an ability that was too slow to guarantee a safe hit without having to outright guess the direction it would move, would you accept switching to Tab Mode in Ashes to ensure safety/accuracy?
This is just about me updating my models of the mindsets behind people's stances in discussions, but I don't mind if this thread derails too. I'll even read Mag's stuff, if I must.
Why am I doing this now? OTHER than just being in 'a mood', it's because I prefer to have these sorts of conversations before Intrepid shows off new stuff, cause understanding people while they're responding to New Intrepid Information and everyone's opinions are stronger is frustrating.
Jormungand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuMwAwBpMAUNo need to watch the video, no need to even know what exactly I'm talking about. Just starting yet another 'data collection/argument' about expectations of raiding, doubling down on the prior question about MMO PvE experiences.
Xeno'jiiva
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5cgiVZ2rCsWithout experience with these games I doubt watching the videos will make sense, they're here for quick-reference on timestamps.
For players who expect to favor Tab Target, both of these dragons fly. If you had an ability that you needed to hit the head with, would you expect the situation to be 'I can't do that while it is airborne without switching to Action Mode' in Ashes?
Would you be okay with that?
For players who expect to favor Action Combat, both of these dragons have positional mechanics that would probably force you to put yourself at considerable risk of missing or taking damage, one or the other. If you had an ability that was too slow to guarantee a safe hit without having to outright guess the direction it would move, would you accept switching to Tab Mode in Ashes to ensure safety/accuracy?
This is just about me updating my models of the mindsets behind people's stances in discussions, but I don't mind if this thread derails too. I'll even read Mag's stuff, if I must.
Why am I doing this now? OTHER than just being in 'a mood', it's because I prefer to have these sorts of conversations before Intrepid shows off new stuff, cause understanding people while they're responding to New Intrepid Information and everyone's opinions are stronger is frustrating.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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But again, this is purely in context of top lvl content. Anything else is free to sway to whichever side and to whatever degree.
Tab target skills have range. If its flying id assume its out of range. If it isnt out of range, even then bosses can have times when they are invulnerable, so attacks used on them just waste your mana, and learning your windows of attack is something that should be known.
Question 2, action combat should have some ranged abilities to begin with, be it pool reticles or narrow lines or whatever. But just because something is far away isnt really akin to, "tab target can hit anything" now if it is so agile you feel you cant aim any action skills on it, having some tab target skills can still feel engaging. Like a ranger having a shot that cant miss, or a warrior having a charge that teliports them to target so they can attempt to lock it down more.
I really tried not to have to update this one..................
But i also think as the combat system is experienced people will stop thinking about if a skill is action or combat... its just a skill. This ones a cone, this one i just target the enemy. I dont play smite, and cognitivly acknowledge what form of attack im using. This i aim, this just happens around me, this heals him, its all just familiarity with your skills after some time.
Thank you, I hope that by using these two very specific examples I can avoid getting into any unnecessary ruts with anyone.
Basically, if no one actually responds 'No, I don't want to have to aim even in this situation', then it will imply to me that no matter what other disagreements occur in other threads, most of it is probably just a lack of targeted references.
(if relevant, I'd prefer you not bother trying not to update your posts if I've in any way influenced you to shift that, I can probably much more easily update 'my side' expectations).
I see that you have the assumption that Tab Target skills have limited range, so I'll 'add that to my list'. This would also be my expectation, but some recent discussions have brought me to conclude that there are a few people who don't seem to expect that 'actually having to interact with the range' is particularly important to battles for Tab Target skills.
"You know, I'm something of a dragon myself..."
Anyway, I will take all responses seriously, I should clarify. This is not meant to imply that I think you are trolling (I do disagree with your perspective, so there's some bias there), just verifying that either this is your very real opinion, or at least, that if you are trolling, you are ready to double down.
Please forgive my bias.
Since, I can support either…
Wow handled very similar mechanics in a number of bosses, and also was a very tab game. I’m thinking of the back of Deathwing fight or that bug boss from Pandaria. Totally fine with this.
This is exactly where a ‘lock target’ function would apply to a boss fight, you’d then rely on your stats to manage hits/misses instead of manually aiming. Totally fine with this.
This cracked me up. 😉
From your side then...
Jormungand is surrounded by creatures that aggro to spellcasting. In this case let's assume Ability use would also trigger them to come for you. For half of them, the method of attack is 'casting spells', sometimes AoE, sometimes very powerful single target, sometimes debilitating status effects.
IF you were required to face Jormungand in Action Mode (because you chose Action Skills) to maximize DPS, and one of these was to aggro you when you used an ability, from behind, would you consider this to be a natural part of the encounter, or would you switch to using more Tab-Target abilities to prevent it?
If I keep dying because of my build and or playstyle, I'll tweak my build to include more Tab Target abilities and also tweak my playstyle to fit that.
In Elden Ring I noticed that the Crucible Knight would do a specific lunge attack whenever I healed near him, essentially input/action reading me. I changed my strategy to run away outside the proximity that he would do that attack whenever I needed to heal. I also noticed that he increases his walking speed towards me whenever I healed outside that proximity. I've also died too many times with my 2H Great Sword build/playstyle against him and added a parry shield to help me win. I hope this last paragraph helped.
The category of people I still don't know the reaction time of >.>
As a followup question then, what if anything would you expect to cause you to switch back out of Tab Target mode at that point?
Intrepid has implied that harder CC will generally be skillshot related, so that's an obvious point.
But what else makes you switch, again, assuming one of the dragons above and their size. And if you don't mind, if there is anything you expect to gain as a benefit from switching back to Action Combat mode other than 'just liking it', what is it?
(It's additionally helpful if you also address the same point I made to Ugoogee in the same flow, being in Tab Target would make adds easier to detect).
In the fight you outlined above, if we started as Action then went to a lock target (or tab) in flight phase then it could transition back to action when the dragon lands again.
I’d see it as phase driven. Similar to the Malygos fight in Wrath (WoW). Where the fight is broken into three phases with different combat forms for each phase.
If the nominal combat system is action, then the only benefit to ‘switching back’ after the flight phase, is that we’re back to ‘normal’ combat in Ashes, which maximizes our known behaviors (and subsequent output).
Everything applies the same if the nominal system were tab, and the flight phase switched to action combat abilities.
Make sense?
I’ll review this first and add another post.
My doubt had nothing to do with your dragon-affiliation and everything to do with basically going "Even Action skills should not be able to harm a flying Dragon".
I considered it a somewhat unique perspective on it and I generally find some of your off-the-cuff posts to be funny so I wasn't entirely sure. Data noted.
In this game, these kind of mechanics are exactly what I would expect to see. There should be a need to switch between action and tab during raids.
To me, this is exactly the same reason as why I would be against an action combat only MMO creating raid content that prevents the tank from being able to dodge.
When you create raid content, the idea is that players need to master every aspect of their class to be successful. In an action game where tanks dodge, dodging is a skill that should be required in raid content.
With Ashes being a game where players will need to switch between action and tab, needing to switch between them should be both an expectation and requirement for basically all raid content (and for top end single group content).
I suppose that if there was a mechanic where I was expected to hit the head, I would expect to have to switch to 'action mode' to accomplish that while it was airborne. That isn't my read on combat mechanics in Ashes, though. I don't expect a single target to have separate hitboxes that are only targetable through a manually-aimed skill.
I would not be ok with that in a boss that moves & behaves like Jormungand. Jormungand's behavior and animation is too erratic; just look at how its head swings back and forth with every attack. Hitting the head wouldn't be difficult, but frustrating.
I would be ok with that in a boss that moves and behaves like Xeno'jiiva. Xeno'jiiva has animations that are much more predictable. Its quick movements are telegraphed by a slow wind up. Hitting the head might be difficult at times, and you might have to wait for a good opportunity, but it won't be frustrating like with Jormungand.
Basically, If I need to briefly switch to an Action Camera, I expect the encounter to be designed for it.
Where does this fit on that scale for you, then?
Based on what you've said I would lean toward assuming that you think 'this encounter should not force me to hit the head', but I don't like assuming, so I ask.
FYI when Xeno'jiiva is airborne, I find it to be only slightly less erratic than the Ashes Dragon shown there, but I'm not 'saying that the dragon shown there is similar to high end raid content' either. (you can't see it because the player in the Xeno video is explicitly 'sustained DPS' and it wouldn't be their job to hit the head).
Any thought on 'Hybrid Design where only some tanks actually need to positionally dodge'?
Such as a design that results from/includes having defensive skills available to Tanks powerful enough to disincentivize actually moving out of the attacks (for whatever reason) but Action based offensive skills that benefit from 'not having to dodge'.
To me, if you have a class that you are considering to be a tank, that you are giving tank abilities to, that class should be able to tank any content in your game. Sure, it may require some specific conditions (like, perhaps, requiring specific healer classes or some such), but there should be a way. There will also always be a specific tank class that is best, but the others should all be capable on all content - and considered capable by players.
If there is a subset of tanks that need to dodge in order to tank, they will not be considered capable of tanking raid content.
This is something EQ2 did poorly. The game had 6 tank classes, yet 90%+ of the raiding I was involved with - whether I was running it or just participating - all used the same one tank class. Four of those 6 classes were not considered capable of tanking raid content at all.
Bard augments could potentially provide buffs in the same way, so maybe that too. L2's tanks had an ultra buff where they'd need to do or take dmg to build up a charge and then use that charge to trigger the buff. I could see smth similar through augments.
Please note that this is theoretical, but is functional enough in practice that I can consistently use it to tank in that game, (as much as it is overall possible to do so, one can judge from the battle video whether or not it seems like tanking is happening).
Attacks seem to have either 3 or 5 tiers of 'hate gained', and hate is reduced when the monster attacks in the direction of the player, not when the monster successfully damages that player.
So the Switch Blade user (the one you see the perspective of in the video) is constantly riding the 'line' by actually holding back on DPS, resulting in some of the more annoying/dangerous attacks being used less often. The tank in the video is doing such a relatively good job (again, from my experience) that you barely see them, you just know 'the monster is attacking someone else most of the time'.
There are certain states and timings where the monster does not build any hate value (normally when staggered).
The goal of a tank in Monster Hunter World is to keep striking as often as possible, and to quickly reposition toward the monster if it goes for someone else and again, keep striking. The key is to attack more often. The "Shield Tank" therefore literally has a shield (and can attack while it is up, just poking the enemy). The Evasion tank vaults and 'flies' around while striking many times very consistently due to high mobility and has two additional ways to debuff or stagger the monster more often, which can, with experience, be used when they are about to 'lose hate'.
FFXI tanking works as one would expect from MMOs (I hope, maybe my lack of experience will show here). Taunt, high hate-generation abilities, mitigation, minor CC options, good defenses. Jormungand does have a hate reset which is used randomly when it has built enough gauge for it.
I would expect that for Ashes, some sort of stamina gauge for blocking may be needed, and mitigation would need to be combined with blocking to reach 'I don't even have to dodge right now' levels of self-protection.
In the case where stamina is a thing, and dodging 'must happen eventually' (from the Mana efficiency standpoint moreso than the threat-to-life standpoint), is your response different?
However, as a hypothetical situation, if there were an action game where the tank needed to switch for a period of time so that dodging is required as an active defense, then this is something that the raid would need to take in to consideration.
They would need to maintain communication to work out exactly when the tank needs to start dodging (which will mean a massive drop in ranged DPS, and probably also a drop in threat on the tank), and how long that state would need to last. Then they would need to work that period of time in to the encounters mechanics, so that it is the least disruptive as possible.
While this isn't in itself an issue, the issue comes in that literally all encounters would need to be designed to take in to account.
While there are a few great ways you could work this in to an encounters design, the problem is that it is now a requirement of all encounters - not just the few that you found a great way to work it in.
If that is not the case, I'd assume it'll come down to proper timings of ability usage (mainly dmg mitigation ones) and proper blocking that will consume stamina. And I'm assuming that purely on the basis of it being easier than a proper iframe dodge (unless active blocking can be "exploited" by "iframing" hits).
Outside of those assumptions, I'd really have to see augment potentials to even start imagining how the tank gameplay will go down. And I'm very interested in that cause that's what I'm gonna be doing in the game
Q: For players who expect to favor Tab Target, both of these dragons fly. If you had an ability that you needed to hit the head with, would you expect the situation to be 'I can't do that while it is airborne without switching to Action Mode' in Ashes?
A: If it was necessary to specifically hit the head with that skill, i would certainly expect the necessity to switch to action mode as i would expect it to be an action skill to specifically aim for the head, unless the dragon's head have its own target separated from its body target, it being airborne or not for this situation seems like a non-factor unless we consider action skillshots to not be limited by range and the airborne dragon to stand beyond tab-target skills range.
I don't expect the same skill as action or as tab to have different ranges considering this wiki quote:
Attack range will likely remain the same; as it is driven by the weapon or skill itself.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat_targeting
Q: Would you be okay with that?
A: Yes, certainly.
Q: For players who expect to favor Action Combat, both of these dragons have positional mechanics that would probably force you to put yourself at considerable risk of missing or taking damage, one or the other. If you had an ability that was too slow to guarantee a safe hit without having to outright guess the direction it would move, would you accept switching to Tab Mode in Ashes to ensure safety/accuracy?
A: When you say switching to Tab Mode what do you mean?
Because as far as i'm aware changing from action mode to tab mode wouldn't necessarily "ensure safety/accuracy" of an action skill, i believe the question would've made more sense as
"would you accept prioritizing the use of your tab target skills to ensure safety/accuracy?"
And my answer would be, yes.
Aren't we all sinners?
That dragon would be OK with me, but not great. There are some sudden movements when he pulls out special abilities, but after a pull or two I would know what to look out for to predict that. I would expect the animations to better fit the expectations of the fight better, though.
Maybe make a large stamina pool, with slow regeneration, so a prolonged fight becomes more interesting tho... stamina that is full every 2 or 3 seconds doesnt really stoke my fire if you know what i mean.
Well in the case of the two raids shown, the situation doesn't quite apply to either, but we could imagine a theoretical one where the concepts are combined into one dragon (or just overall thought about in this way).
This is also similar to how BDO already works (note that for those of you who think BDO PvE content sucks, I agree, but also believe it does not HAVE to suck, they just don't have an audience who cares/can do better content)
Dragon flies, the Tank blocks and tries to use threat generation abilities between attacks before quickly returning to blocking. Mistiming this or misjudging the better time to take a hit results in problems. Pretty simple I think. I'd think that, at that point, it would work similar to Action Dodge assuming that took mana or stamina.
"The Healer and I have an understanding/rhythm of when I am going to take hits, and it's up to me to time that correctly."
I don't think a stamina gauge is required for this absolutely (I'd prefer one) though, since the Tank 'needs to keep using threat generation abilities' in the 'Blocking Tank' case, and 'Will have their Action Dodge on Cooldown or burn too much Mana dodging too much' in the Action Evade tank case.
This isn't as true if the Dragon has AoE, particularly if the block prevents a lot of damage and the AoE reduces the hate values of everyone else it hits, which is my usual experience (for example Xeno'jiiva normally sorta-resets target after using AoE and the thing that makes one a 'Tank' is how fast you can get back into position to hit it before anyone else does).
It's been a while since i've played a game where resources management played a role in combat (beyond health) but could add a fun dimension to combat. In Darkfall, everything you did, including sprinting, was tied to a resource, so focusing on your resources and stating out your opponent was a way to fight.