Whatever they do end up going with i just want it universal among the classes. I dont like seperate resource management. If im a tank i should be worried about hp, mana, stamina. If im a cleric, i should be worried about mana, hp, stamina. With pvp as a focus, i dont want to have to know how the mage-summoners "souls gathered" resource works to know his resources in combat. Just want the basics to be universal
It's been a while since i've played a game where resources management played a role in combat (beyond health) but could add a fun dimension to combat. In Darkfall, everything you did, including sprinting, was tied to a resource, so focusing on your resources and stating out your opponent was a way to fight.
I'll be a little disappointed if Ashes is both 'here, manage just these two bars and your Cooldowns' and ALSO 'oh yeah and you don't have lots of complex decision making to do'.
Having nice synergies is great, but with just this, I would EXPECT the First Order Strategies to be the easiest ones. On the other hand, they've said that the game may be quite niche, so maybe the PvE will be challenging and most players who don't handle challenge well will just overlevel per main content and quests and I'll still get to have difficulty.
I'm okay with 'one special mechanic or meter per Class', and Stamina. I don't hate more complex things, but I play in group, and not all my group members can keep up focus for more complex classes/mechanics, and putting strain on them indirectly puts strain on me.
For those unfamiliar, Monster Hunter works the same. Blocking, Evading, Special Skills, Sprinting, and Climbing are all Stamina based. Only thing that isn't is 'standard physical attacks and combos'.
So yes, you can 'run out of Stamina at the wrong time and die to Xeno'jiiva as a result, and similarly, Tanks can lose the capacity to tank temporarily through Stamina mismanagement (Evasion Tank particularly). This is mitigated with builds and gear, but never entirely.
There is no such thing in FFXI, just cooldowns and Mana. Jormungand therefore manipulates the capacity for defense and Tanking explicitly, as part of the Encounter Challenge, not the Standard Challenge.
Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
Adds.[13]
Random oriented skill usage.[13]
Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13] Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif
It has been brought to my attention that I need to put this here to put some context as to the discussion.
The reason the two bosses here were chosen are that one is from an MMORPG with a known similar mechanical philosophy and the other is from a 4-player high action game with a known similar mechanical philosophy.
This is why the raids for games that do not use this mechanical philosophy are not currently planned to be included in this or any further TheoryRaid data collection.
One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif
To answer your question, no, I don't mind using all abilities available to me to fit each particular moment in a fight. However, I feel this separation of "tab target abilities" and "action abilities" is a little overblown. Forgive me if I misunderstood the point of the post, but I have a lot of confusion regarding most folks' frustration regarding the hybrid system.
You're about to attack a target, or even just surveying a target. From that moment 'til the end of combat / interest, you should have your primary opponent targeted so you can see relevant buffs and track their resources more easily.
In the midst of combat, you will have some abilities that 'always' strike your target, and some dynamic abilities. In a game like WoW, these dynamic abilities are targeted with ground effects. A fairly low-skill targeting technique, it's pretty much always going to land. It's just an extra step to direct it.
In Ashes, these dynamic ability types will require you to learn your class. You're literally discovering new magic and learning to use new combat techniques. Not clicking a button, paying money for training and suddenly becoming a master of the skill with the insight to visualize a pinpoint landing zone for every ability.
So to summarize, you tab target your main target regardless of your intended abilities (except perhaps in wild siege encounters with a few exceptions) and... use your skills? Some are 'guaranteed' hits, and some you have to target. I don't view this as "switching" between tab and action. They're just targeted abilities and dynamic abilities. You'll always have your main target targeted, so you're always in "tab target mode" when you use your targeted abilities. When you click a dynamic skill, you'll just make sure your reticle is positioned appropriately.
To me, it all seems pretty standard and fairly similar to any other MMO combat system, just with the requirement that people actually learn to use their targeted skills instead of just "learning" the skills. Once we get our hands on it all in A2, I think the two parts of the system will feel much less polarized and work in tandem more easily than some might think in concept. People will hopefully feel motivated to learn their class more intimately and feel a greater sense of pride when they experience victory in combat.
To answer your question, no, I don't mind using all abilities available to me to fit each particular moment in a fight. However, I feel this separation of "tab target abilities" and "action abilities" is a little overblown. Forgive me if I misunderstood the point of the post, but I have a lot of confusion regarding most folks' frustration regarding the hybrid system.
You're about to attack a target, or even just surveying a target. From that moment 'til the end of combat / interest, you should have your primary opponent targeted so you can see relevant buffs and track their resources more easily.
In the midst of combat, you will have some abilities that 'always' strike your target, and some dynamic abilities. In a game like WoW, these dynamic abilities are targeted with ground effects. A fairly low-skill targeting technique, it's pretty much always going to land. It's just an extra step to direct it.
In Ashes, these dynamic ability types will require you to learn your class. You're literally discovering new magic and learning to use new combat techniques. Not clicking a button, paying money for training and suddenly becoming a master of the skill with the insight to visualize a pinpoint landing zone for every ability.
So to summarize, you tab target your main target regardless of your intended abilities (except perhaps in wild siege encounters with a few exceptions) and... use your skills? Some are 'guaranteed' hits, and some you have to target. I don't view this as "switching" between tab and action. They're just targeted abilities and dynamic abilities. You'll always have your main target targeted, so you're always in "tab target mode" when you use your targeted abilities. When you click a dynamic skill, you'll just make sure your reticle is positioned appropriately.
To me, it all seems pretty standard and fairly similar to any other MMO combat system, just with the requirement that people actually learn to use their targeted skills instead of just "learning" the skills. Once we get our hands on it all in A2, I think the two parts of the system will feel much less polarized and work in tandem more easily than some might think in concept. People will hopefully feel motivated to learn their class more intimately and feel a greater sense of pride when they experience victory in combat.
For your information, therefore, this game is possibly going to contain actual 'FPS' level 'skillshots'.
I had two (which could also be used in Tab Mode, but this could change) on CLERIC.
If an enemy moved between my and my target, they would be hit by the ability instead.
There definitely are Ground Target template style things, but there were also definitely 'pinpoint' Action Abilities. Right now, it's up in the air, so the question (which is also about dragons being up in the air) is explicitly about 'aiming a non-instant projectile with a crosshair on the head of a moving target'.
For your information, therefore, this game is possibly going to contain actual 'FPS' level 'skillshots'.
I had two (which could also be used in Tab Mode, but this could change) on CLERIC.
If an enemy moved between my and my target, they would be hit by the ability instead.
There definitely are Ground Target template style things, but there were also definitely 'pinpoint' Action Abilities. Right now, it's up in the air, so the question (which is also about dragons being up in the air) is explicitly about 'aiming a non-instant projectile with a crosshair on the head of a moving target'.
Right, I guess that’s what I was referring to with really learning to use your skills and being more aware of your environment. It will definitely be interesting to see how often ground templates are used to project the landing zone of an attack. I would’ve assumed that the hammer smash ability they showed off last month would’ve had one if they were going to use them, and didn’t see anything there, so I guess I assumed they were moving away from that a bit. Perhaps I was mistaken.
But as for your main point, like I said, we have multiple abilities for a reason. If I was actually fighting a dragon and it flew up in the air going very fast, dodging and weaving, I probably would not be trying to hit it with fancy skill shots. I’d probably rely on magic or magic influenced abilities that have a ‘guaranteed’ hit chance. Keeping DoTs up. Coordinating with my allies. Healing. Handling minions. Whatever may be relevant in the moment.
If there are moments where that flying movement is more measured and gives me a window of opportunity to hit a skill shot more easily (if it’s flying towards me at a stable altitude) then maybe I’ll give it a shot.
But again, these are just different abilities designed to suit different circumstances. Being prepared for multiple combat circumstances is generally a good practice for anyone, I think.
I guess the point I was making was that even in a game like WoW, definitely a “tab target” game, you still have “targeted” abilities that require a degree of precision. Obviously they don’t have verticality, but let’s say there’s a huge land creature in WoW zooming around on the ground in evasive patterns. Would I be trying to hit its head with any sort of ranged targeted attack? Probably not, unless given the example of predictable movement I mentioned before. It’s the same concept in my mind, just with a greater degree of precision for some abilities in Ashes.
I guess the point I was making was that even in a game like WoW, definitely a “tab target” game, you still have “targeted” abilities that require a degree of precision. Obviously they don’t have verticality, but let’s say there’s a huge land creature in WoW zooming around on the ground in evasive patterns. Would I be trying to hit its head with any sort of ranged targeted attack? Probably not, unless given the example of predictable movement I mentioned before. It’s the same concept in my mind, just with a greater degree of precision for some abilities in Ashes.
Your data is appreciated. I really am just trying to get a clear picture of what people expect and want, so thank you.
There is a certain type of player who expects to 'have to hit the flying weaving dragon' due to the type and level of Action Game they play, and many players like that were drawn into the original iteration (Ashes of Creation: Apocalypse).
That's part of the reason I check it. Basically, Apocalypse was, at the time, implied to be a test for some functionality for the game, and I can't say what functionality it was testing. Maybe when the new Combat Designers came and they got lots of feedback they threw that out and started fresh.
I guess that's a question for this month's Q&A, so thanks for that too.
There is a certain type of player who expects to 'have to hit the flying weaving dragon' due to the type and level of Action Game they play, and many players like that were drawn into the original iteration (Ashes of Creation: Apocalypse).
That's part of the reason I check it. Basically, Apocalypse was, at the time, implied to be a test for some functionality for the game, and I can't say what functionality it was testing. Maybe when the new Combat Designers came and they got lots of feedback they threw that out and started fresh.
I guess that's a question for this month's Q&A, so thanks for that too.
I think that's a very relevant question. How much of the combat that we saw in Apocalypse is still relevant? What were some major components the team decided to change? Even if the systems aren't finished being programmed and animated, I feel like they probably have the core functionality nailed down for most skillsets if they already started showing off weapon attacks and teased some magic abilities in the last two updates, and would be capable of responding if they so wished. Bit of a vague question obviously, so you might not get exactly the answer you want, but it's worth a shot.
Tab target skills have range. If its flying id assume its out of range. If it isnt out of range, even then bosses can have times when they are invulnerable, so attacks used on them just waste your mana, and learning your windows of attack is something that should be known.
Both bumping this thread and addressing something now that I've seen the Cyclops.
The range on Wand attacks is currently just stupid.
I don't think even an airborne dragon could EVER reasonably outrange them.
Ranger attacks looking similar as of that showcase.
Comments
I'll be a little disappointed if Ashes is both 'here, manage just these two bars and your Cooldowns' and ALSO 'oh yeah and you don't have lots of complex decision making to do'.
Having nice synergies is great, but with just this, I would EXPECT the First Order Strategies to be the easiest ones. On the other hand, they've said that the game may be quite niche, so maybe the PvE will be challenging and most players who don't handle challenge well will just overlevel per main content and quests and I'll still get to have difficulty.
I'm okay with 'one special mechanic or meter per Class', and Stamina. I don't hate more complex things, but I play in group, and not all my group members can keep up focus for more complex classes/mechanics, and putting strain on them indirectly puts strain on me.
For those unfamiliar, Monster Hunter works the same. Blocking, Evading, Special Skills, Sprinting, and Climbing are all Stamina based. Only thing that isn't is 'standard physical attacks and combos'.
So yes, you can 'run out of Stamina at the wrong time and die to Xeno'jiiva as a result, and similarly, Tanks can lose the capacity to tank temporarily through Stamina mismanagement (Evasion Tank particularly). This is mitigated with builds and gear, but never entirely.
There is no such thing in FFXI, just cooldowns and Mana. Jormungand therefore manipulates the capacity for defense and Tanking explicitly, as part of the Encounter Challenge, not the Standard Challenge.
Raid mechanics
Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]
Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
Adds.[13]
Random oriented skill usage.[13]
Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif
It has been brought to my attention that I need to put this here to put some context as to the discussion.
The reason the two bosses here were chosen are that one is from an MMORPG with a known similar mechanical philosophy and the other is from a 4-player high action game with a known similar mechanical philosophy.
This is why the raids for games that do not use this mechanical philosophy are not currently planned to be included in this or any further TheoryRaid data collection.
One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif
You're about to attack a target, or even just surveying a target. From that moment 'til the end of combat / interest, you should have your primary opponent targeted so you can see relevant buffs and track their resources more easily.
In the midst of combat, you will have some abilities that 'always' strike your target, and some dynamic abilities. In a game like WoW, these dynamic abilities are targeted with ground effects. A fairly low-skill targeting technique, it's pretty much always going to land. It's just an extra step to direct it.
In Ashes, these dynamic ability types will require you to learn your class. You're literally discovering new magic and learning to use new combat techniques. Not clicking a button, paying money for training and suddenly becoming a master of the skill with the insight to visualize a pinpoint landing zone for every ability.
So to summarize, you tab target your main target regardless of your intended abilities (except perhaps in wild siege encounters with a few exceptions) and... use your skills? Some are 'guaranteed' hits, and some you have to target. I don't view this as "switching" between tab and action. They're just targeted abilities and dynamic abilities. You'll always have your main target targeted, so you're always in "tab target mode" when you use your targeted abilities. When you click a dynamic skill, you'll just make sure your reticle is positioned appropriately.
To me, it all seems pretty standard and fairly similar to any other MMO combat system, just with the requirement that people actually learn to use their targeted skills instead of just "learning" the skills. Once we get our hands on it all in A2, I think the two parts of the system will feel much less polarized and work in tandem more easily than some might think in concept. People will hopefully feel motivated to learn their class more intimately and feel a greater sense of pride when they experience victory in combat.
For your information, therefore, this game is possibly going to contain actual 'FPS' level 'skillshots'.
I had two (which could also be used in Tab Mode, but this could change) on CLERIC.
If an enemy moved between my and my target, they would be hit by the ability instead.
There definitely are Ground Target template style things, but there were also definitely 'pinpoint' Action Abilities. Right now, it's up in the air, so the question (which is also about dragons being up in the air) is explicitly about 'aiming a non-instant projectile with a crosshair on the head of a moving target'.
Right, I guess that’s what I was referring to with really learning to use your skills and being more aware of your environment. It will definitely be interesting to see how often ground templates are used to project the landing zone of an attack. I would’ve assumed that the hammer smash ability they showed off last month would’ve had one if they were going to use them, and didn’t see anything there, so I guess I assumed they were moving away from that a bit. Perhaps I was mistaken.
But as for your main point, like I said, we have multiple abilities for a reason. If I was actually fighting a dragon and it flew up in the air going very fast, dodging and weaving, I probably would not be trying to hit it with fancy skill shots. I’d probably rely on magic or magic influenced abilities that have a ‘guaranteed’ hit chance. Keeping DoTs up. Coordinating with my allies. Healing. Handling minions. Whatever may be relevant in the moment.
If there are moments where that flying movement is more measured and gives me a window of opportunity to hit a skill shot more easily (if it’s flying towards me at a stable altitude) then maybe I’ll give it a shot.
But again, these are just different abilities designed to suit different circumstances. Being prepared for multiple combat circumstances is generally a good practice for anyone, I think.
Your data is appreciated. I really am just trying to get a clear picture of what people expect and want, so thank you.
There is a certain type of player who expects to 'have to hit the flying weaving dragon' due to the type and level of Action Game they play, and many players like that were drawn into the original iteration (Ashes of Creation: Apocalypse).
That's part of the reason I check it. Basically, Apocalypse was, at the time, implied to be a test for some functionality for the game, and I can't say what functionality it was testing. Maybe when the new Combat Designers came and they got lots of feedback they threw that out and started fresh.
I guess that's a question for this month's Q&A, so thanks for that too.
I think that's a very relevant question. How much of the combat that we saw in Apocalypse is still relevant? What were some major components the team decided to change? Even if the systems aren't finished being programmed and animated, I feel like they probably have the core functionality nailed down for most skillsets if they already started showing off weapon attacks and teased some magic abilities in the last two updates, and would be capable of responding if they so wished. Bit of a vague question obviously, so you might not get exactly the answer you want, but it's worth a shot.
Both bumping this thread and addressing something now that I've seen the Cyclops.
The range on Wand attacks is currently just stupid.
I don't think even an airborne dragon could EVER reasonably outrange them.
Ranger attacks looking similar as of that showcase.
I'll focus there for now...