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Topic: Should groups over a certain size, such as raids, automatically be marked as combatants?

2

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    PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2022
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    My take on this is that I don't see a whole lot of large scale PvP happening that is subject to corruption - and when that kind of fighting does happen, it isn't actually over anything.

    As such, I see no reason at all why what some may consider dirty tactics shouldn't be a thing.

    I wouldn't want to see tactics like this be viable when fighting over a caravan, a node or even a world boss (my expectation is that these will be subject to battleground rules - though this is not confirmed). However, for just open world fights because someone dissed your mother or what ever, I see this kind of thing being possible to be a good thing for the game, not a bad thing.

    Thats fair honestly, what suggestions would you make regarding fighting over a caravan, a node or a world boss?

    Well seeing as fighting over a caravan or node is opt in content, where you get a promt, flagging you on approach if you opt in, i dont think you need this worry for those. And the world boss we went over where the original players already engaging the boss has the advantage.
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    DolyemDolyem Member
    edited July 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    I will say however, Open world raid bosses will likely no matter what, be greatly affected by PvP. And what I mentioned earlier about this same exploit being utilized to wipe raids on bosses will be just as big of a problem as what you're stating here. The current design is still flawed from what I can tell, and a better solution than "Well just manipulate the current design" is desirable. Also I don't see an overwhelming need to protect massive groups of players with systems that are made to prevent ganking.
    As Penguin just said, the og raiders will have the upper hand because the newcomers will have to risk going Red in order to stop the raid.

    But even outside of that, depending on how ow bosses are balanced and designed, you might not even need a huge group of people to mess up a raid. If the boss is tuned in such a way that you need near-perfect gameplay - any solo rogue willing to go red against the raiders' healer will wipe the raid. He'd be green coming up to the raid because he's alone, so the raid itself would have to immediately go red against him to prevent him from doing anything.

    And in your suggestion, that raid would be flagged, so the rogue would not even risk anything at all. Hell, it could be a few rogues in stealth just fucking up everyone and everything. Or it could be a group of people that boost the boss' power because its people limiter went over and now he's "enraged". This would also wipe the raid w/o the newcomers flagging up or really even doing anything.

    We've yet to see how exactly Intrepid are planning to design their top lvl pvx content, so we'll have to wait till then to really see all the potential exploits. I definitely agree that there's at least a few obvious ones, but Intrepid might've already come up with some mechanics to prevent that, so I think it's a bit silly to worry about that before we know anything. Though your concern when it comes to ow bosses is definitely valid. The concern about "two sides fighting and then the 3rd comes and beats the winner" - not so much, imo :)

    all true, but how do we fix the small wrecking crew group problem regarding boss raids? With the current system its either "let them wipe you" or "fight back and fight the rest of their raid as well as the boss"

    I am sure most of you know I am all for pvp but i am also for good systems so I really want to find a good system for this but if there isnt one then its whatevs
    GJjUGHx.gif
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    PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2022
    Dolyem wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    I will say however, Open world raid bosses will likely no matter what, be greatly affected by PvP. And what I mentioned earlier about this same exploit being utilized to wipe raids on bosses will be just as big of a problem as what you're stating here. The current design is still flawed from what I can tell, and a better solution than "Well just manipulate the current design" is desirable. Also I don't see an overwhelming need to protect massive groups of players with systems that are made to prevent ganking.
    As Penguin just said, the og raiders will have the upper hand because the newcomers will have to risk going Red in order to stop the raid.

    But even outside of that, depending on how ow bosses are balanced and designed, you might not even need a huge group of people to mess up a raid. If the boss is tuned in such a way that you need near-perfect gameplay - any solo rogue willing to go red against the raiders' healer will wipe the raid. He'd be green coming up to the raid because he's alone, so the raid itself would have to immediately go red against him to prevent him from doing anything.

    And in your suggestion, that raid would be flagged, so the rogue would not even risk anything at all. Hell, it could be a few rogues in stealth just fucking up everyone and everything. Or it could be a group of people that boost the boss' power because its people limiter went over and now he's "enraged". This would also wipe the raid w/o the newcomers flagging up or really even doing anything.

    We've yet to see how exactly Intrepid are planning to design their top lvl pvx content, so we'll have to wait till then to really see all the potential exploits. I definitely agree that there's at least a few obvious ones, but Intrepid might've already come up with some mechanics to prevent that, so I think it's a bit silly to worry about that before we know anything. Though your concern when it comes to ow bosses is definitely valid. The concern about "two sides fighting and then the 3rd comes and beats the winner" - not so much, imo :)

    all true, but how do we fix the small wrecking crew group problem regarding boss raids? With the current system its either "let them wipe you" or "fight back and fight the rest of their raid as well as the boss"

    Politics, deals, and hireing locals to back you up if people try and stop your raid? You interact with people. When you have to organize 40 people to do something you probably dont just leave it up to fate that the local large guilds arent there to squabble with you
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    DolyemDolyem Member
    Dolyem wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    I will say however, Open world raid bosses will likely no matter what, be greatly affected by PvP. And what I mentioned earlier about this same exploit being utilized to wipe raids on bosses will be just as big of a problem as what you're stating here. The current design is still flawed from what I can tell, and a better solution than "Well just manipulate the current design" is desirable. Also I don't see an overwhelming need to protect massive groups of players with systems that are made to prevent ganking.
    As Penguin just said, the og raiders will have the upper hand because the newcomers will have to risk going Red in order to stop the raid.

    But even outside of that, depending on how ow bosses are balanced and designed, you might not even need a huge group of people to mess up a raid. If the boss is tuned in such a way that you need near-perfect gameplay - any solo rogue willing to go red against the raiders' healer will wipe the raid. He'd be green coming up to the raid because he's alone, so the raid itself would have to immediately go red against him to prevent him from doing anything.

    And in your suggestion, that raid would be flagged, so the rogue would not even risk anything at all. Hell, it could be a few rogues in stealth just fucking up everyone and everything. Or it could be a group of people that boost the boss' power because its people limiter went over and now he's "enraged". This would also wipe the raid w/o the newcomers flagging up or really even doing anything.

    We've yet to see how exactly Intrepid are planning to design their top lvl pvx content, so we'll have to wait till then to really see all the potential exploits. I definitely agree that there's at least a few obvious ones, but Intrepid might've already come up with some mechanics to prevent that, so I think it's a bit silly to worry about that before we know anything. Though your concern when it comes to ow bosses is definitely valid. The concern about "two sides fighting and then the 3rd comes and beats the winner" - not so much, imo :)

    all true, but how do we fix the small wrecking crew group problem regarding boss raids? With the current system its either "let them wipe you" or "fight back and fight the rest of their raid as well as the boss"

    Politics, deals, and hireing locals to back you up if people try and stop your raid? You interact with people. When you have to organize 40 people to do something you probably dont just leave it up to fate that the local large guilds arent there to squabble with you

    I do love a "let the community handle it" mindset.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • Options
    PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    I will say however, Open world raid bosses will likely no matter what, be greatly affected by PvP. And what I mentioned earlier about this same exploit being utilized to wipe raids on bosses will be just as big of a problem as what you're stating here. The current design is still flawed from what I can tell, and a better solution than "Well just manipulate the current design" is desirable. Also I don't see an overwhelming need to protect massive groups of players with systems that are made to prevent ganking.
    As Penguin just said, the og raiders will have the upper hand because the newcomers will have to risk going Red in order to stop the raid.

    But even outside of that, depending on how ow bosses are balanced and designed, you might not even need a huge group of people to mess up a raid. If the boss is tuned in such a way that you need near-perfect gameplay - any solo rogue willing to go red against the raiders' healer will wipe the raid. He'd be green coming up to the raid because he's alone, so the raid itself would have to immediately go red against him to prevent him from doing anything.

    And in your suggestion, that raid would be flagged, so the rogue would not even risk anything at all. Hell, it could be a few rogues in stealth just fucking up everyone and everything. Or it could be a group of people that boost the boss' power because its people limiter went over and now he's "enraged". This would also wipe the raid w/o the newcomers flagging up or really even doing anything.

    We've yet to see how exactly Intrepid are planning to design their top lvl pvx content, so we'll have to wait till then to really see all the potential exploits. I definitely agree that there's at least a few obvious ones, but Intrepid might've already come up with some mechanics to prevent that, so I think it's a bit silly to worry about that before we know anything. Though your concern when it comes to ow bosses is definitely valid. The concern about "two sides fighting and then the 3rd comes and beats the winner" - not so much, imo :)

    all true, but how do we fix the small wrecking crew group problem regarding boss raids? With the current system its either "let them wipe you" or "fight back and fight the rest of their raid as well as the boss"

    Politics, deals, and hireing locals to back you up if people try and stop your raid? You interact with people. When you have to organize 40 people to do something you probably dont just leave it up to fate that the local large guilds arent there to squabble with you

    I do love a "let the community handle it" mindset.

    I mean, if they didnt want a let the community handle it opportunity, then more of the content would be instanced
  • Options
    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited July 2022
    Dolyem wrote: »
    I can hear the PvE cries alrdy. No need for this.

    I know you're a PvP guy so I would actually love to hear your reasoning

    Imagine a large group of peaceful players gathering for whatever reason. Flower picking, questing, rping raiding.They shouldnt be auto flagged.

    Speaking of raiding. Since there will be open world raidbosses like in L2, having the group that starts the raid autoflag, makes it so easy for potential adversaries to floor them. In L2 some damage dealers would hesitated to unload on unsuspected targets, in case they PK. That gave the chance to the attacked group to fight back.


    Autoflag should be reserved to sieges caravans and little arenas near cities. It's best for the game. Making PvP easier to come by dilutes its significance.
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dolyem wrote: »
    NEW THOUGHT! What if, as a solution, instead of raid flagging, guild war declaration can be done on a whim? Allowing for the hostilities to be made apparent to both sides. Sure the attacking force in the scenario wouldnt do it since theyd give up the advantage, but if they were seen, the currently fighting group or groups would be able to declare war simply to let them know they mean business and prevent an advantage which at that point would be optional. Although I suppose the problem there would be for raid bosses. Not all raids would opt to fight back in order to cause corruption on the aggressor raid, which in the current system is entirely viable. Hmmm, this is tough. Also if you havent realized I am typing as I think of this stuff so bare with me lmao.

    Upon guild war decleration the aggressor can attack without occuring PK. The victims must declare back of they want to attack without PKing. It's part of the plan
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    I will say one thing if one person is flagged in a group everyone should be flagged to reduce non flagged party members trying to body block attacks and so on
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    No.
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    DolyemDolyem Member
    Veeshan wrote: »
    I will say one thing if one person is flagged in a group everyone should be flagged to reduce non flagged party members trying to body block attacks and so on

    I didn't even consider body blocking attacks. That's a whole other concern now 🤣
    GJjUGHx.gif
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    DolyemDolyem Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    No.

    Let's hear the reasons!
    GJjUGHx.gif
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    PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    I will say one thing if one person is flagged in a group everyone should be flagged to reduce non flagged party members trying to body block attacks and so on

    I didn't even consider body blocking attacks. That's a whole other concern now 🤣

    I dont think greens can body block attacks, just the player movement. You cant hit a green player unless you target them specifically.
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    tautau wrote: »
    Nope.

    1. PvP is voluntary. If you are involuntarily flagged, for whatever reason, then PvP becomes involuntary.
    2. Since it is open world, we will often see multiple parties doing dungeons & raids together. So, if a potentially hostile party comes along then one or more of the cooperative parties can flag and take care of the hostiles, and a core party can continue with the mobs.
    3. I suspect that others can come up with additional reasons.

    So
    Just in general for being the group I would agree... But is he suggesting that if one flags the whole group flags? I might be okay with that...
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    NiKrNiKr Member
    Veeshan wrote: »
    I will say one thing if one person is flagged in a group everyone should be flagged to reduce non flagged party members trying to body block attacks and so on
    You do realize tab target exists, right? I don't think the tab crowd will be happy if people can body block their abilities.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    Body block would be for Active Combat. Body block would not affect Tab Targeting.
    So, yes, switch to Tab Target abilities and AoEs, if Non-Combatants purposefully body block.

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    JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    I will say one thing if one person is flagged in a group everyone should be flagged to reduce non flagged party members trying to body block attacks and so on

    I didn't even consider body blocking attacks. That's a whole other concern now 🤣

    I dont think greens can body block attacks, just the player movement. You cant hit a green player unless you target them specifically.

    I mean if you block movement, you block an attack because the hitboxes are only so long. So using a green as a melee shield isn't quite preposterous. I'm also not willing to believe you can just shoot a ranged attack through someone at a tab-ed enemy since other games do not allow for this even though they are tab. Not ruling it out either though. Spells are a bit more finicky about line of sight but eh. Point is, I wouldn't rule out tab being effected by collision so easily.
    Small print leads to large risks.
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    Honestly if someoen is messing with your raid and they flag on you, you should just flag back. IF there is a whole guild of 40 waiting for you to flag so they can flag on you, then you need a new stat. Most likely you are going to have to fight that group anyway you can't just avoid the pvp as they most likely will dec you. If they can't dec cause you a group of random that just met, you will have to take the member loss and kill them once they are red then regroup and deal with the boss.
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    I agree though , if someone is flagged in your party it should flag you as well if you a supporting them. Having a pocket healer shouldn't be a thing it is pretty stupid and will be exploited. You just find some random person flag up and not kill them and have your healer heal you, hoping that mobs kill them so you can loot their corpse without corruption gain. If you fight back you can't target their healer, its something everyone will pretty much do in fights so the healers are unkillable without going red.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    A pocket healer?
    How does that work?
    If a Non-Combatant heals a Combatant - that flags the healer as a Combatant.
    If you fight back, why can't you target the healer?
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I agree though , if someone is flagged in your party it should flag you as well if you a supporting them. Having a pocket healer shouldn't be a thing it is pretty stupid and will be exploited. You just find some random person flag up and not kill them and have your healer heal you, hoping that mobs kill them so you can loot their corpse without corruption gain. If you fight back you can't target their healer, its something everyone will pretty much do in fights so the healers are unkillable without going red.

    Who ever said that people can buff/heal a purple without turning purple themselves?
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    PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2022
    JustVine wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    I will say one thing if one person is flagged in a group everyone should be flagged to reduce non flagged party members trying to body block attacks and so on

    I didn't even consider body blocking attacks. That's a whole other concern now 🤣

    I dont think greens can body block attacks, just the player movement. You cant hit a green player unless you target them specifically.

    I mean if you block movement, you block an attack because the hitboxes are only so long. So using a green as a melee shield isn't quite preposterous. I'm also not willing to believe you can just shoot a ranged attack through someone at a tab-ed enemy since other games do not allow for this even though they are tab. Not ruling it out either though. Spells are a bit more finicky about line of sight but eh. Point is, I wouldn't rule out tab being effected by collision so easily.

    I read the original, greens body blocking post as. I cant attack without risking curruption. My post simply was even attacks that should hit greens doesnt unless you specifically target them. So body blocking is the only real issue in my head.
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    DolyemDolyem Member
    I dont know about yall but I just can't wait to test everything. I really appreciate everyones feedback. Excellent counter arguments.
    GJjUGHx.gif
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    Um. Well... those 20 players would have to not be in a guild and not be a citizen of a foreign Node.

    You have 20 players who are not citizens of a Node farming in the Node.
    So, what??

    Who says that the 10 players will be able to easily kill the 20 players?

    I don't understand any of your scenarios.
    If the 20 gatherers are not citizens of a foreign Node, what makes them an enemy?
    If 10 players wish to risk killing 20 non-citizen Non-Combatants to prevent them from farming resources in their Node, they are free to risk gaining Corruption, sure.
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    unphazdunphazd Member, Intrepid Pack
    Get good at diplomacy or PVP. Not meant in a rude way.
    giphy.gif

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    tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz is right, you WANT non-citizens to farm your node in order for your node to level up, or to prevent it from de-levelling. The more people you have active in your node's area, the healthier your node will be.
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    SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dolyem wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    I will say however, Open world raid bosses will likely no matter what, be greatly affected by PvP. And what I mentioned earlier about this same exploit being utilized to wipe raids on bosses will be just as big of a problem as what you're stating here. The current design is still flawed from what I can tell, and a better solution than "Well just manipulate the current design" is desirable. Also I don't see an overwhelming need to protect massive groups of players with systems that are made to prevent ganking.
    As Penguin just said, the og raiders will have the upper hand because the newcomers will have to risk going Red in order to stop the raid.

    But even outside of that, depending on how ow bosses are balanced and designed, you might not even need a huge group of people to mess up a raid. If the boss is tuned in such a way that you need near-perfect gameplay - any solo rogue willing to go red against the raiders' healer will wipe the raid. He'd be green coming up to the raid because he's alone, so the raid itself would have to immediately go red against him to prevent him from doing anything.

    And in your suggestion, that raid would be flagged, so the rogue would not even risk anything at all. Hell, it could be a few rogues in stealth just fucking up everyone and everything. Or it could be a group of people that boost the boss' power because its people limiter went over and now he's "enraged". This would also wipe the raid w/o the newcomers flagging up or really even doing anything.

    We've yet to see how exactly Intrepid are planning to design their top lvl pvx content, so we'll have to wait till then to really see all the potential exploits. I definitely agree that there's at least a few obvious ones, but Intrepid might've already come up with some mechanics to prevent that, so I think it's a bit silly to worry about that before we know anything. Though your concern when it comes to ow bosses is definitely valid. The concern about "two sides fighting and then the 3rd comes and beats the winner" - not so much, imo :)

    all true, but how do we fix the small wrecking crew group problem regarding boss raids? With the current system its either "let them wipe you" or "fight back and fight the rest of their raid as well as the boss"

    I am sure most of you know I am all for pvp but i am also for good systems so I really want to find a good system for this but if there isnt one then its whatevs

    You have a PvP focused crew and a PvE focused crew.

  • Options
    but how else are we supposed to create a wall of non-combatants to trigger corruption between conflicts?
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    PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    but how else are we supposed to create a wall of non-combatants to trigger corruption between conflicts?

    This is where in game GM's can come in handy.

    A gm goes to the sight of a war zone. Notices all the greens trying to body block, and just turns them all purple.
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    but how else are we supposed to create a wall of non-combatants to trigger corruption between conflicts?

    This is where in game GM's can come in handy.

    A gm goes to the sight of a war zone. Notices all the greens trying to body block, and just turns them all purple.

    but what if we're part of green peace?
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    PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    but how else are we supposed to create a wall of non-combatants to trigger corruption between conflicts?

    This is where in game GM's can come in handy.

    A gm goes to the sight of a war zone. Notices all the greens trying to body block, and just turns them all purple.

    but what if we're part of green peace?

    Then you can fight for your life like the rest of us, while screaming green peace.
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