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Action Camera & Healing

13

Comments

  • LeiloniLeiloni Member, Alpha Two
    Leukael wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »

    We had a lot of good discussion on page 1 of this thread on various ways to do action combat healing and how it's been done well or poorly in other games. Re-read that page and let us know your thoughts. :smile:

    I will say, though it can't be too difficult. Healing needs to be reliable for a lot of reasons so while skill should be a factor, aiming skill can't be too hard.

    I would like to see healer's skill expression be in resource management and choice in spell list to the best result. Like to me that is how healers are different to dps in terms of engagement of the player.

    They can create skills that create incentives beyond aiming. Think like interaction between your skills having different results (a certain heal causes a hot to tick for all value at once, another can refresh the hot, and another could have the output boosted - just examples of how to make healing more interesting in decision making rather than accuracy and AOEs.)

    They don't even need skills to interact in a complicated way like that. Honestly sometimes that's not even all that fun. Sometimes it's just target and skill selection, triage management, reaction and timing, being able to read the battlefield and everything that's going on, knowing your and other class's abilities well enough to make appropriate decisions, etc. Of course going back to some of our thoughts on page 1, a lot of this requires single target abilities to be a thing, or at least smaller 1-3 target abilities.
  • LeukaelLeukael Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Leiloni wrote: »

    They don't even need skills to interact in a complicated way like that. Honestly sometimes that's not even all that fun. Sometimes it's just target and skill selection, triage management, reaction and timing, being able to read the battlefield and everything that's going on, knowing your and other class's abilities well enough to make appropriate decisions, etc. Of course going back to some of our thoughts on page 1, a lot of this requires single target abilities to be a thing, or at least smaller 1-3 target abilities.

    I am not saying that it has to be that way but I'd rather have an interaction that gives me a bonus or allows me to impact how I heal rather than aoe's and accuracy. It engages a different part of my brain that I feel is appealing to the type of gamer a lot of healers tend to be.

    Stag-Axiom-Sig-LEAUK3.png
  • mfckingjokermfckingjoker Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    I love lineage 2 healing where you have to point and click to target and heal or u can use skills that work only on your party. It really tests your reflexes and decision making on what to do when. I hope they will go with a similar approach in ashes. Haven't tested many other systems apart from NW which was action based and a lot easier in general.
    3hmamy1ekfqy.gif
  • ItsmeTokiItsmeToki Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    How about making healing a challenge by having to aim every single healshot/ability like as recommended with the combat system for ranged dps classes. It should be as challenging for healers to aim at their allys as ranged dps classes are aiming at the enemie players. Since everybody is talking about action combat and how skillfull it is just make everything action combat oriented. Ah and let those healing abilities only do high amounts of healing and have a decent range, if you have chosen the action combat version over the tab version. Cause tabheals would be too easy to land etc...
    Lets get rdy for some hate :)

    Support skills should not be more difficult than it needs to be, then there is a inconsistency with balancing pve. Action based healing is fine, and so is tab for this kind of thing no one is going to argue that. There are plenty of other ways to add action abilities and forms of utility that can be fun to play for them besides being a healing bot.

    Just wanted to find out, if you have double standards. well now i have my answer :)
    You say ranged dps classes should be rewarded if you choose aiming abilitites and aiming basic attacks over tabtareting combat and you make the ability to aim the benchmark for every dps class. But now with healing you go "yeah fine, let them have tabtargeting. There are a lot of other challenging skills to master for a player..." Its hard to keep track of what combat system you want to have for an mmo :D
  • ItsmeTokiItsmeToki Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Leiloni wrote: »
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    How about making healing a challenge by having to aim every single healshot/ability like as recommended with the combat system for ranged dps classes. It should be as challenging for healers to aim at their allies as for ranged dps classes it is to hit enemie players. Since everybody is talking about action combat and how skillfull it is just make everything action combat oriented. Ah and let those healing abilities only do high amounts of healing and have a decent range, if you have chosen the action combat version over the tab version. Cause tabheals would be too easy to land etc...
    Lets get rdy for some hate :)

    We had a lot of good discussion on page 1 of this thread on various ways to do action combat healing and how it's been done well or poorly in other games. Re-read that page and let us know your thoughts. :smile:

    I will say, though it can't be too difficult. Healing needs to be reliable for a lot of reasons so while skill should be a factor, aiming skill can't be too hard.

    "aiming for healers cant be too hard." But thats excactly what I mean. You cant say on the one side that you dont want difficult aiming for healers because they have so much other things to do, if on the other side people wanna make aiming as hard as possible for dps classes. they as well have skills and other things to do besides aiming...

    Dont want to offend anybody here. Look at it as objective as you can please :)
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    How about making healing a challenge by having to aim every single healshot/ability like as recommended with the combat system for ranged dps classes. It should be as challenging for healers to aim at their allys as ranged dps classes are aiming at the enemie players. Since everybody is talking about action combat and how skillfull it is just make everything action combat oriented. Ah and let those healing abilities only do high amounts of healing and have a decent range, if you have chosen the action combat version over the tab version. Cause tabheals would be too easy to land etc...
    Lets get rdy for some hate :)

    Support skills should not be more difficult than it needs to be, then there is a inconsistency with balancing pve. Action based healing is fine, and so is tab for this kind of thing no one is going to argue that. There are plenty of other ways to add action abilities and forms of utility that can be fun to play for them besides being a healing bot.

    Just wanted to find out, if you are have double standards. well now i have my answer :)
    You say ranged dps classes should be rewarded if you choose aiming abilitites and aiming basic attacks over tabtareting combat and you make the ability to aim the benchmark for every dps class. But now with healing you go "yeah fine, let them have tabtargeting. There are a lot of other challenging skills to master for a player..." Its hard to keep track of what combat system you want to have for an mmo :D

    You literarily don't understand a mmorpg or game design....You are to busy trying to fight to tab target thinking it is the best and you don't care the stupid points you make. You are trying to litterially start a pointless argument and if you have been reading my stuff you would know how i feel about certain support aspects as I've already talked about healing.

    The fact you think competitive elements and cooperative elements are the same is the most disingenuous argument you can try to make. Its very easy to keep track of what I want, that doesn't mean adding design that makes a experience more difficult from a pve and pvp stand point among other things. Try again, though I guess is should expect types like you on the forum.
  • ItsmeTokiItsmeToki Member, Alpha Two
    Again you tell me what I think. I am fascinated :)
    So you work in game development mr mmo design expert? :)
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Again you tell me what I think. I am fascinated :)
    So you work in game development mr mmo design expert? :)

    I've worked in games and I work on movies and tv shows, not that it matters. What matters is understanding core design and experience from multiple games.

    Go read my older post and find my comments on healing, trying to start a conversation by being hostile or this indecent doesn't really want me to have to explain again. Try not being annoying next time and more honest, it will help you a lot more when you want to understand someone and aren't having some weird bias.
  • ItsmeTokiItsmeToki Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Again you tell me what I think. I am fascinated :)
    So you work in game development mr mmo design expert? :)

    I've worked in games and I work on movies and tv shows, not that it matters. What matters is understanding core design and experience from multiple games.

    Go read my older post and find my comments on healing, trying to start a conversation by being hostile or this indecent doesn't really want me to have to explain again. Try not being annoying next time and more honest, it will help you a lot more when you want to understand someone and aren't having some weird bias.

    Well, talking on beeing annoying...
    For a guy that apparently worked for quit some time in the entertainment industry you know notably little about what ppl want for a game.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Again you tell me what I think. I am fascinated :)
    So you work in game development mr mmo design expert? :)

    I've worked in games and I work on movies and tv shows, not that it matters. What matters is understanding core design and experience from multiple games.

    Go read my older post and find my comments on healing, trying to start a conversation by being hostile or this indecent doesn't really want me to have to explain again. Try not being annoying next time and more honest, it will help you a lot more when you want to understand someone and aren't having some weird bias.

    Well, talking on beeing annoying...
    For a guy that apparently worked for quit some time in the entertainment industry you know notably little about what ppl want for a game.

    More insults I see, I know based on the numbers on mmorpgs it isn't full tab based as its in a downward trend.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Again you tell me what I think. I am fascinated :)
    So you work in game development mr mmo design expert? :)

    I've worked in games and I work on movies and tv shows, not that it matters. What matters is understanding core design and experience from multiple games.

    Go read my older post and find my comments on healing, trying to start a conversation by being hostile or this indecent doesn't really want me to have to explain again. Try not being annoying next time and more honest, it will help you a lot more when you want to understand someone and aren't having some weird bias.

    Well, talking on beeing annoying...
    For a guy that apparently worked for quit some time in the entertainment industry you know notably little about what ppl want for a game.

    More insults I see, I know based on the numbers on mmorpgs it isn't full tab based as its in a downward trend.

    For the record, this is not true. Verifiable on mmo-population.com.

    EDIT: Just realized I should clarify, the verifiable thing is that it is not true that the speaker of this statement knows the trend.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Again you tell me what I think. I am fascinated :)
    So you work in game development mr mmo design expert? :)

    I've worked in games and I work on movies and tv shows, not that it matters. What matters is understanding core design and experience from multiple games.

    Go read my older post and find my comments on healing, trying to start a conversation by being hostile or this indecent doesn't really want me to have to explain again. Try not being annoying next time and more honest, it will help you a lot more when you want to understand someone and aren't having some weird bias.

    Well, talking on beeing annoying...
    For a guy that apparently worked for quit some time in the entertainment industry you know notably little about what ppl want for a game.

    More insults I see, I know based on the numbers on mmorpgs it isn't full tab based as its in a downward trend.

    For the record, this is not true. Verifiable on mmo-population.com.

    EDIT: Just realized I should clarify, the verifiable thing is that it is not true that the speaker of this statement knows the trend.

    https://techblogreader.com/2022/06/15/estimated-number-of-world-of-warcraft-subscribers-from-2004-to-2023-world-of-warcraft/

    Biggest TAB mmorpg losing players over the years and does not top their highest nor will it anymore. It had a height of 12 million subs, by any chart you can see it is on a downward trend. Just because it gains people during an expansion does not mean in its a upwards trend. You are looking at the site you should know this.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Again you tell me what I think. I am fascinated :)
    So you work in game development mr mmo design expert? :)

    I've worked in games and I work on movies and tv shows, not that it matters. What matters is understanding core design and experience from multiple games.

    Go read my older post and find my comments on healing, trying to start a conversation by being hostile or this indecent doesn't really want me to have to explain again. Try not being annoying next time and more honest, it will help you a lot more when you want to understand someone and aren't having some weird bias.

    Well, talking on beeing annoying...
    For a guy that apparently worked for quit some time in the entertainment industry you know notably little about what ppl want for a game.

    More insults I see, I know based on the numbers on mmorpgs it isn't full tab based as its in a downward trend.

    For the record, this is not true. Verifiable on mmo-population.com.

    EDIT: Just realized I should clarify, the verifiable thing is that it is not true that the speaker of this statement knows the trend.

    https://techblogreader.com/2022/06/15/estimated-number-of-world-of-warcraft-subscribers-from-2004-to-2023-world-of-warcraft/

    Biggest TAB mmorpg losing players over the years and does not top their highest nor will it anymore. It had a height of 12 million subs, by any chart you can see it is on a downward trend. Just because it gains people during an expansion does not mean in its a upwards trend. You are looking at the site you should know this.

    Replaced by FFXIV.

    Total trend for Tab Target cannot be determined by looking at WoW.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    I wouldn't say that is final fantasy really growing when they have such a small player base. Some people jumped ship from WoW to try it and was very popular over that time.. They definitely improved the game and gained some more players. But even know that game is losing people from their peak, though if they can gain 3m+ subs that would be a good sign I will say.

    It still is nothing in comparison to 12m subs WoW had at a point. Though i will say its mmorpgs as a whole, doesn't mean its only tab related but tab related holds the most players and those are going down in the millions.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Though that site shouldn't be taken that seriously as well, its very rough numbers, things are worst then what that site will show.

    c1pgqh9eo0fh.png
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    How can a unreleased game have players be moving down.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say that is final fantasy really growing when they have such a small player base. Some people jumped ship from WoW to try it and was very popular over that time.. They definitely improved the game and gained some more players. But even know that game is losing people from their peak, though if they can gain 3m+ subs that would be a good sign I will say.

    It still is nothing in comparison to 12m subs WoW had at a point. Though i will say its mmorpgs as a whole, doesn't mean its only tab related but tab related holds the most players and those are going down in the millions.

    Square Enix themselves have reported their current subscriber count for FFXIV to be 22 million.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    WoW is dying because it's 18 years old and is stuck with endgame - nothing to do with tab target combat.
    I've been waiting for WoW 2.0 for 10 years and... I've been waiting for the true next step to MMORPG evolution Nodes - since 2013.

    I like NWO combat, but that didn't keep me playing past the first expansion.
    Because it's the same old endgame treadmill.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say that is final fantasy really growing when they have such a small player base. Some people jumped ship from WoW to try it and was very popular over that time.. They definitely improved the game and gained some more players. But even know that game is losing people from their peak, though if they can gain 3m+ subs that would be a good sign I will say.

    It still is nothing in comparison to 12m subs WoW had at a point. Though i will say its mmorpgs as a whole, doesn't mean its only tab related but tab related holds the most players and those are going down in the millions.

    Square Enix themselves have reported their current subscriber count for FFXIV to be 22 million.

    I cant find the information where they say they have 22m active subscribers where did you find this?
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Closest thing I see is 22m players, or 30-40m million players doesn't say how many are paying subs.
  • ElderElder Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Closest thing I see is 22m players, or 30-40m million players doesn't say how many are paying subs.

    Here's a quote I found that I believe he's referencing, I'm sure you can find the source yourself as I'm on my phone ATM.

    "Back in April 2021, Square Enix offered an update on how many people play FFXIV. It said the player base, which included people taking part in the free trial, passed 22 million people."
    Which is the greater folly, summoning the demon or expecting gratitude from it?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say that is final fantasy really growing when they have such a small player base. Some people jumped ship from WoW to try it and was very popular over that time.. They definitely improved the game and gained some more players. But even know that game is losing people from their peak, though if they can gain 3m+ subs that would be a good sign I will say.

    It still is nothing in comparison to 12m subs WoW had at a point. Though i will say its mmorpgs as a whole, doesn't mean its only tab related but tab related holds the most players and those are going down in the millions.

    In late 2021 Square Enix had to temporarily halt sales of the game due to it being too popular for their business model to keep up with at the time.

    They have since made adjustments.

    You are correct to point out that the number includes those using the free trial. Thank you for your attentiveness in that aspect.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Elder wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Closest thing I see is 22m players, or 30-40m million players doesn't say how many are paying subs.

    Here's a quote I found that I believe he's referencing, I'm sure you can find the source yourself as I'm on my phone ATM.

    "Back in April 2021, Square Enix offered an update on how many people play FFXIV. It said the player base, which included people taking part in the free trial, passed 22 million people."

    I'm talking about subs though not just players, I did see the 22 m mark, and on the mmo site it shows like 20-40m I believe of a player base. Doesn't mean they are active or subscribed though, charts stills how a loss of players all around. Mmorpgs are not popping off really and have been stale in growth or downward normally compared to the growth or numbers of other genres.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Elder wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Closest thing I see is 22m players, or 30-40m million players doesn't say how many are paying subs.

    Here's a quote I found that I believe he's referencing, I'm sure you can find the source yourself as I'm on my phone ATM.

    "Back in April 2021, Square Enix offered an update on how many people play FFXIV. It said the player base, which included people taking part in the free trial, passed 22 million people."

    I'm talking about subs though not just players, I did see the 22 m mark, and on the mmo site it shows like 20-40m I believe of a player base. Doesn't mean they are active or subscribed though, charts stills how a loss of players all around. Mmorpgs are not popping off really and have been stale in growth or downward normally compared to the growth or numbers of other genres.

    Sorry for countering your point before you brought it, but, see previous post.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Elder wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Closest thing I see is 22m players, or 30-40m million players doesn't say how many are paying subs.

    Here's a quote I found that I believe he's referencing, I'm sure you can find the source yourself as I'm on my phone ATM.

    "Back in April 2021, Square Enix offered an update on how many people play FFXIV. It said the player base, which included people taking part in the free trial, passed 22 million people."

    I'm talking about subs though not just players, I did see the 22 m mark, and on the mmo site it shows like 20-40m I believe of a player base. Doesn't mean they are active or subscribed though, charts stills how a loss of players all around. Mmorpgs are not popping off really and have been stale in growth or downward normally compared to the growth or numbers of other genres.

    Sorry for countering your point before you brought it, but, see previous post.

    I saw the post and I'm aware of that a lot of people were playing the trial some friends of mine subbed for a month before quitting as well. If they had more actual sub numbers then WoW had at the highest peak id be surprised and impressed.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Elder wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Closest thing I see is 22m players, or 30-40m million players doesn't say how many are paying subs.

    Here's a quote I found that I believe he's referencing, I'm sure you can find the source yourself as I'm on my phone ATM.

    "Back in April 2021, Square Enix offered an update on how many people play FFXIV. It said the player base, which included people taking part in the free trial, passed 22 million people."

    I'm talking about subs though not just players, I did see the 22 m mark, and on the mmo site it shows like 20-40m I believe of a player base. Doesn't mean they are active or subscribed though, charts stills how a loss of players all around. Mmorpgs are not popping off really and have been stale in growth or downward normally compared to the growth or numbers of other genres.

    Sorry for countering your point before you brought it, but, see previous post.

    I saw the post and I'm aware of that a lot of people were playing the trial some friends of mine subbed for a month before quitting as well. If they had more actual sub numbers then WoW had at the highest peak id be surprised and impressed.

    QED then. Disengaging.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • ItsmeTokiItsmeToki Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    yqpwxp31b7em.png
    uiovh4kzo0jt.png
    just to give you two examples of two "modern" MMOs that failed. (Action Combat btw)
    So dont tell me about a declining trend on Tab MMOs

    Only because a game has action combat you will not attract the audience of Shooter Gamers like Fortnite, they dont necessarily like the MMO genre itself. Just keep that in mind, if you talk about action combat is the next big thing for MMOs...
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member, Alpha Two
    So can we go back to talking about action camera, action combat, and healing?
  • ItsmeTokiItsmeToki Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Leiloni wrote: »
    So can we go back to talking about action camera, action combat, and healing?

    Sure you are right. I only wanted to point out a combat designing issue before. I obviously would never like healing combat to be focused on aiming. I dont want it as much as I dont want it for the ranged dps classes. :)
    I dont like forcing combat styles on anybody. I like the freedom of choice. I dont like forcing ppl to one combat style not in PvE and not in PvP by giving bonuses to only the action combat option. Because for me aiming is not an important skill to have in an MMO. At least not as important as your cognitiv skills :)

    -Player decisions
    -Player reactions
    PvP players should be measured on those kinds of skills
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »
    So can we go back to talking about action camera, action combat, and healing?

    Sure you are right. I only wanted to point out a combat desinging issue before. I obviously would never like healing combat to be focused on aiming. I dont wnat it as much as I dont want it for the ranged dps classes. :)

    If it matters at all to Intrepid, since I bet Shadow Disciple is going to be unpopular anyway AND have a lot of options for mobility based augments, can I get aiming/movement healing there?

    I think I only need 3 heal skills total (and that's including Radiant Burst even) that 'require close range positioning' for this to work for me in the likely content.

    Any benefits I can get by leveling up those 3 skills so that I don't have to do my usual 'click and press hotkey' healing would be appreciated, and those could just be 'skills that other healers don't need to choose'. I assume this is gonna happen already but you never know, so, yeah.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
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