How Strong is the Secondary Archetype?

So I've read the wiki, and read about the augments. But I'm still wondering, how much does the secondary archetype affect our build?
For example, if my secondary is Rogue, will my attacks do bleed damage?
How far can you bend your primary archetype? If your primary is Tank, will you be shoehorned into playing a supportive/tanky role? Or can you choose a secondary that will allow you to deal more damage and make your role more of a heavy damage dealer?
Disregarding items/enchants

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Azherae

It is currently completely unknown, but yes, if you assume 'without your own group, who you made a lot of decisions with'...

You will be 'shoehorned' into being a Tank if you choose Tank, as we currently understand it, that's the design goal we've been given.

The actual specifics are still in development.

KapStoan

I played around with what some augments might be for a Bard class. This is how I understand it - the primary skills would be changed by your secondary archetype if you choose to augment certain skills. And those skills would be different but you would not swap a Tank ability for a Rogue ability - you could possibly swap a Tank "taunt" for a Tank "taunt with stun" - augments will require skill points to apply to skills so its conceivable you'd improve the skill and not just swap it for a different one.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1neXhCxv_rFh9QcgWdHdoAnJiB8eBMOBMf0kQgJpMkv8/edit#gid=0

Asgerr

Judeth wrote: »

So I've read the wiki, and read about the augments. But I'm still wondering, how much does the secondary archetype affect our build?
For example, if my secondary is Rogue, will my attacks do bleed damage?
How far can you bend your primary archetype? If your primary is Tank, will you be shoehorned into playing a supportive/tanky role? Or can you choose a secondary that will allow you to deal more damage and make your role more of a heavy damage dealer?
Disregarding items/enchants

Whilst we still don't know exactly what the secondary archetype will bring to each Primary archetype, the bleed thing would be more oriented towards weapon skill augments.

That means that you get your main abilities from the Primary, some augments for those Primary skills (such as a Tank's dash becoming a teleport, and thus uninterruptible, and then you can spend points into specing towards certain skills for certain weapons.
The typical example is that you augment your dagger skills to proc a bleed. That in synergy with some other Primary and Secondary attributes may ultimately raise the proc chance or guarantee it with certain Archetype skills.

SirChancelot

Currently an unknown.

But there was a lot of task about it a few months back.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/51718/archetype-roles-i-swear-im-not-crazy/p1

Judeth

Asgerr wrote: »

Whilst we still don't know exactly what the secondary archetype will bring to each Primary archetype, the bleed thing would be more oriented towards weapon skill augments.

I mentioned bleed because Rogues are defined as, "The rogue is more physical disable oriented: Applying bleeds or snares or having precision damage that's situational." on the wiki, so i'm hoping that means that having Rogue as secondary can potentially give your primary skills a bleed augment.

Dygz

I expect x/Rogue to have a School with Bleed augments. Yes.
I also expect Daggers to add a bonus to Bleeds. As well as Bleed weapon Enchantments.

Night Wings

I would imagine it would depend on the class you pick for example

Bard+rogue= Trickster ( from the rogue probably get a stun )
Cleric+Rogue = Shadow disciple ( from the rogue probably get a vanish )
Fighter+rogue = shadowblade ( From the rogue probably get a bleed )
mage+rogue = shadow caster ( from the rogue probably get a slow )
Ranger+rogue = scout ( from the rogue probably get a ability to climb up walls or see traps)
Summoner+rogue = shadowmancer ( from rogue probably get a ability to summon shadows)
Tank+rogue = nightshield (from rogue probably get some evasion/dodging)

but we wont really know until alpha 2 comes around

Dygz

Each Archetype has 4 Augment Schools. So, it really depends on which augments from which School, the player chooses to apply to an Active Skill.

NodeStone

I'd imagine one of the "schools" a rogue can add to a tank is giving some of their abilities a chance to blind enemies, apply poison, bleed, debuffs, or increase dodge/evasion. Basically a battle of attrition. I DOUBT they would add any sort of healing however, so being a Nightshield may not for self sustainability so much as a skill kit to not only mitigate incoming damage but to also entirely avoid half of it. Self healing may have to come from potions or allies. Now a tank/tank (guardian) will be a true mitigating beast, but they will likely lack any real healing too and offer even less in the ways of DPS, meaning they could be decent vanguards to absorb the first rush of damage but they are, by comparison, hitting with a wet noodle since their secondary class will not augment damage like a DPS secondary class can.

Right now though the whole class system is more or less a mystery. With examples like Falconer making class combos look extremely unique, it's hard to tell if they are aiming to give every class a clearly defined style/feeling, or if it's basically the primary class but with different "flavors". I'd GREATLY HOPE that they will try to make every combo feel special, like the aesthetic/lore/community/playstyle of a Nightshield and an Argent feeling exclusively different, despite being the same primary class.

Taleof2Cities

Night Wings wrote: »

but we wont really know until alpha 2 comes around

Maybe not even until Beta.

I would expect several iterations of the Secondary Archetype as we test combat balance and give feedback during Alpha 2.

As @Dygz said, there's 4 augment schools within the Secondary Archetype ... so you can see the herculean task ahead for the IS Combat Team (even if there isn't much variation between augments).

ariatras

Azherae wrote: »

It is currently completely unknown, but yes, if you assume 'without your own group, who you made a lot of decisions with'...

You will be 'shoehorned' into being a Tank if you choose Tank, as we currently understand it, that's the design goal we've been given.

The actual specifics are still in development.

As main, sure. But as secondary? Brood Warden seems a very interesting and unique concept for tanking.

Night Wings

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Night Wings wrote: »

but we wont really know until alpha 2 comes around

Maybe not even until Beta.

I would expect several iterations of the Secondary Archetype as we test combat balance and give feedback during Alpha 2.

As @Dygz said, there's 4 augment schools within the Secondary Archetype ... so you can see the herculean task ahead for the IS Combat Team (even if there isn't much variation between augments).

That's fair, but I would "Imagine" it would be knocking down number's of how effective that type of archetype is rather then changing the full out concept, but I could be wrong. Either way we will learn more what to expect then what we know now.

SirChancelot

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Night Wings wrote: »

but we wont really know until alpha 2 comes around

Maybe not even until Beta.

I would expect several iterations of the Secondary Archetype as we test combat balance and give feedback during Alpha 2.

As @Dygz said, there's 4 augment schools within the Secondary Archetype ... so you can see the herculean task ahead for the IS Combat Team (even if there isn't much variation between augments).

It's not as simple as just 4 schools either. They've said that a school can have different effects on different archetypes.
So maybe the death augment from a cleric gets added to a tank or will add a debuff to an ability, but when added to a rogue it adds an execute effect...

As of now they're complete wild cards.

Dygz

Somewhat wild cards, but not complete wild cards.
A Fire augment will always be a Fire augment, rather than randomly becoming an Ice augment when placed on a different Active Skill.

But, my point was...
Trickster would be able to use the same augments from the "Shadow" School as Shadowmancer.
Shadowmancer would be able to use the same augments from the "Bleed" School as Shadowblade.
And, we can expect Shadowblades to be summoning blades made from Shadows.

SirChancelot

Dygz wrote: »

Somewhat wild cards, but not complete wild cards.
A Fire augment will always be a Fire augment, rather than randomly becoming an Ice augment when placed on a different Active Skill.

But, my point was...
Trickster would be able to use the same augments from the "Shadow" School as Shadowmancer.
Shadowmancer would be able to use the same augments from the "Bleed" School as Shadowblade.
And, we can expect Shadowblades to be summoning blades made from Shadows.

In theme yes it will still be a fire themed effect.
But it could add a burst of fire DMG, add a burn DoT, place a zone of fire on the ground, add a fire shield with a 'thorns' effect... Yes it's all still fire, it is the same school/augment, but it's a wild card as to what they can do with it for every class or even any ability.
So how that augment effects one archetype may not be the same for every archetype. Makes them pretty wild card to me.

Dygz

SirChancelot wrote: »

In theme yes it will still be a fire themed effect.
But it could add a burst of fire DMG, add a burn DoT, place a zone of fire on the ground, add a fire shield with a 'thorns' effect... Yes it's all still fire, it is the same school/augment, but it's a wild card as to what they can do with it for every class or even any ability.
So how that augment effects one archetype may not be the same for every archetype. Makes them pretty wild card to me.

Pretty is not the same as complete.

Azherae

SirChancelot wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Somewhat wild cards, but not complete wild cards.
A Fire augment will always be a Fire augment, rather than randomly becoming an Ice augment when placed on a different Active Skill.

But, my point was...
Trickster would be able to use the same augments from the "Shadow" School as Shadowmancer.
Shadowmancer would be able to use the same augments from the "Bleed" School as Shadowblade.
And, we can expect Shadowblades to be summoning blades made from Shadows.

In theme yes it will still be a fire themed effect.
But it could add a burst of fire DMG, add a burn DoT, place a zone of fire on the ground, add a fire shield with a 'thorns' effect... Yes it's all still fire, it is the same school/augment, but it's a wild card as to what they can do with it for every class or even any ability.
So how that augment effects one archetype may not be the same for every archetype. Makes them pretty wild card to me.

Y'all think differently to me, I'm not even willing to assume this.

I'm here worrying about:

Devs: "Well this skill doesn't have anything Fire can do to enhance it so if you use the Elemental school for this specific skill you will automatically get a Lightning Augment because we think that would make the most sense for the skill".

"But... I'm a Fire Juggler Bard..."

"No, you're a Bard, that's your Primary Archetype, you CHOOSE to juggle fire, and you just CHOOSE not to take Elemental on this skill, it's all about choices mattering."

";_;"

Do we have a quote or reason to be certain that you 'could choose Fire as an elemental augment on every skill and actually know you will get Fire'?

Dygz

Um. A Fire augment from the Elemental School enhances any Active Skill by adding Fire damage to it.
The player chooses whether they wish to use a Fire augment or a Lightning augment.
I dunno why we would need a quote that specifically asks that.

If you are worried about it, you could ask that specific question so that we have a dev quote worded the way you want it.

mcstackerson

Dygz wrote: »

Um. A Fire augment from the Elemental School enhances any Active Skill by adding Fire damage to it.
The player chooses whether they wish to use a Fire augment or a Lightning augment.

I think their interpretation is based off the fact that Steven has referred to mages as having an elemental school and it's a little unclear if that's one school or multiple schools. If it was one school, then it's unclear if you get to pick the element or if the devs have already picked the element a skill gets when the elemental school is applied to it.

Dygz

Um. I dunno how that can be unclear.
Elemental School is one School. With several types of Elemental augments in that group - Fire, Lightning, Ice...
Teleportation School is one School. With several types of Teleport augments in that group.
The player picks the augments they wish to use. From the School they wish to use.
The Elemental School is not applied to an Active Skill. An augment is applied to the Active Skill.

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