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How Strong is the Secondary Archetype?

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Comments

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Ironhope wrote: »
    What we do know is that if you, for example, chose a tank then that's that, you will be a tank for the rest of the game.

    I mean... I think it might feel better to say:
    If you chose a Rogue as your Primary Archetype, you will be a Rogue for the rest of the game.

    You can choose to be a Shadowblade and change to something other than being a Rogue later in the game.
    Same for x/Tanks.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    If you chose a Rogue as your Primary Archetype, you will be a Rogue for the rest of the game.
    .

    Rogue isn't a role.

    Dps is the role.
    Dygz wrote: »
    You can choose to be a Shadowblade and change to something other than being a Rogue later in the game.
    Same for x/Tanks. .

    I mean, you will still be just a dps, a harder to kill dps (something I hope they do in a creative way, not via boring state alterations), but still a dps.



  • Booooo
    BooooOOOooo

    Flexible roles sliders 2023!

    I do have to say I wish the class system in ashes was a a bit different....

    As someone wanting to go for the crusader fantasy (holy knight dps), I find leveling as a fighter to be a pretty bitter pill to swallow.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Ironhope wrote: »
    As someone wanting to go for the crusader fantasy (holy knight dps), I find leveling as a fighter to be a pretty bitter pill to swallow.
    I'm just curious here. As I see "crusaders" (especially holy knights), you'd either need a tank/cleric or a cleric/tank combination rather than a fighter/x one. I could maaaybe see fighter/cleric pairing, but still, out of those 3 choices the fighter seems like the best way to level up a character, mainly because he's a dps (and you said you want a dps class), while both tank and cleric would have to be pretty much supports.

    So considering that, why do you find that fighter doesn't fit your preference?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Ironhope wrote: »
    Rogue isn't a role.
    Dps is the role.
    LMFAO
    Rogue is a role. Especially in an RPG that is balanced around an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype.
    What you mean is that Rogue is not the Trinity role. DPS is the Trinity role.
    RPGs have variety of roles besides just the Trinity roles.


    Dygz wrote: »
    I mean, you will still be just a dps, a harder to kill dps (something I hope they do in a creative way, not via boring state alterations), but still a dps.
    LMAO
    No.
    In an 8-person group, Tank/x is designed to be the main tank.
    That does not mean that a Rogue/Tank cannot be the main tank in a group that does not have a Tank/x.
    Also, a Tank/Cleric could be the main healer in a group that does not have a Cleric/x.
    There could also be a Rogue/Cleric in that group acting as a healer.
    There could also be a Fighter/Cleric in that group acting as a healer.
    Especially true in groups with less than 8 people.

    Even in 8-person group
    A Rogue/Tank can do some tanking as well as DPS, so is not "just" DPS.
    A Rogue/Cleric can do some healing as well as DPS, so is not "just" DPS.
    A Rogue/x in an 8-person group will primarily be DPS. And can also be something else secondarily.

    And, that still means that an x/Rogue can change their secondary Trinity role.
    And an x/Tank can change their secondary Trinity role.
    An x/Tank is "a Tank". And does not have to be a (secondary) Trinity role tank for the rest of the game.
    Also, if there is a Master Gatherer Tank/Cleric tagging along with an 8-person group that has a Knight who will be main tank - that Paladin might choose to do more healing than tanking.
  • IronhopeIronhope Member
    edited August 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    What you mean is that Rogue is not the Trinity role. DPS is the Trinity role.

    I believed it was obvious that I meant that Rogue is not a Trinity role, but then, when the one you're talking to is insincere and hellbent on generally being agressive for no reason, there's no amount of precision in speech or gesture to satisfy said person.

    Dygz wrote: »
    That does not mean that a Rogue/Tank cannot be the main tank in a group that does not have a Tank/x.

    Sure, under the right circumstances, anything can be a tank, a rogue/rogue, a cleric/cleric, whatever.
    That's clearly not the sense of what I meant.

    A rogue/x will (most likely, based on what we know so far) still be a DPS as far as the trinity role system is concerned.

    That was the topic and that's what I said.
    Dygz wrote: »
    And, that still means that an x/Rogue can change their secondary Trinity role.

    ''can change their secondary trinity role''

    who said anything about secondary trinity roles? That's an offtopic discussion you started randomly on your own.

    I said they can't change their trinity role from dps to tank or healer, which is the case

  • Just curious NiKr, do you think I'm too pretentious or want a fantasy which is too rare?

    Is the dps, melee, holy themed fantasy that nieche?
    NiKr wrote: »
    I'm just curious here. As I see "crusaders" (especially holy knights), you'd either need a tank/cleric or a cleric/tank combination rather than a fighter/x one.

    Not if you want the Retribution Paladin Crusader.
    I mean, if you google Crusader now too, most images will be with a guy with a big sword, a dps focused combatant.

    For that the only thing you can do is pick a fighter and then go cleric as secondary archetype.

    So I, someone focusing on the holy fantasy, will have to play a fighter (a complete different fantasy) for a large part of the game to get to something relatively close to what I want.

    I am still hopeful that a cleric/fighter with the right gear, talents and tattoos will nonetheless be capable of being that retribution paladin type fantasy... but yeah, that's probably not going to be the case.

    NiKr wrote: »
    I could maaaybe see fighter/cleric pairing, but still, out of those 3 choices the fighter seems like the best way to level up a character, mainly because he's a dps (and you said you want a dps class), while both tank and cleric would have to be pretty much supports..

    I actually expect cleric/tank/bard to level faster because

    A) they will have 0 problems finding dungeon groups for leveling

    B) this is going to be a challenging, classic-mmo-rpg experience so you will have a lot of people teaming up with friends in the open world to quest. Since AOC is clearly a pvp focused game, people will be gratly encouraged to do this as a means of defending themselves against ganking.

    I mean, for all we know, questing is the best way of leveling, but I personally don't expect it.

    Not that I mind leveling slowly, I actually enjoy it, assuming the story, gameplay and ambiance of the game in general is good.
    NiKr wrote: »
    So considering that, why do you find that fighter doesn't fit your preference?

    It's a completely different fantasy, at least until you merge it with a cleric to make a highsword (dps holy themed melee, which is probably the closest thing to the fantasy I want).

    It's like going to a restaurant while craving for some pizza only to find out you will have to go through two courses of soups to get to the pizza you want.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Ironhope wrote: »
    I believed it was obvious that I meant that Rogue is not a Trinity role, but then, when the one you're talking to is insincere and hellbent on generally being agressive for no reason, there's no amount of precision in speech or gesture to satisfy said person.
    I don't know why you think anything I said was a aggressive.
    If I wanted to be aggresive, I would have written something like, "You are stupid as fuck. I don't know why you're even wasting our time with that shit."

    What I replied to was your comment: "What we do know is that if you, for example, chose a tank then that's that, you will be a tank for the rest of the game."
    Archetype is also a type of role. So, no... choosing "a tank" is not clear whether you mean Archetype role or Trinity role.
    Which is why I replied that it might be better to use Rogue... if you are referring to Archetype.
    Since you meant Trinity role... it would have been clearer to use choosing "a dps" as your example.

    And all of that is OK.
    We aren't always as clear as we might...hope...to be.
    We can add more clarity as people respond to what we wrote...if something was misunderstood.

    My laughing at your assertion that a Rogue is not a role is not aggressive.
    It's just laughing at the absurdity of the suggestion that Rogue is not a role in an RPG.


    Ironhope wrote: »
    Sure, under the right circumstances, anything can be a tank, a rogue/rogue, a cleric/cleric, whatever.
    That's clearly not the sense of what I meant.
    LMAO
    I didn't suggest that anything can have the Trinity role of tank.
    An x/Tank is literally a type of tank. Any x/Tank has a secondary Trinity role of tank.
    An x/Rogue has a secondary Trinity role of dps.
    An x/Cleric has a secondary Trinity role of healer/support.


    Ironhope wrote: »
    A rogue/x will (most likely, based on what we know so far) still be a DPS as far as the trinity role system is concerned.

    That was the topic and that's what I said.
    That's not what you actually said. That may be what you meant.
    But it's still missing the key point that a Rogue/x can have more than one Trinity role.
    A Rogue/x is primarily a DPS and can secondarily be a Trinity role of tank or healer/support. And, that secondary Trinity role can change throughout the life of the game.




    Ironhope wrote: »
    who said anything about secondary trinity roles? That's an offtopic discussion you started randomly on your own.

    I said they can't change their trinity role from dps to tank or healer, which is the case
    I said something about secondary Trinity roles -I said it- because it's important for people to understand that each class has a primary Trinity role and a secondary Trinity role.
    So it is not the case that we are stuck with just one Trinity role for the rest of the game when we choose a primary Trinity role.
    The case is that you are stuck with the Primary Archetype once you choose your Primary Acrhetype. Your Trinity role -especially your secondary Trinity role- has flexibility based on your choice of Secondary Archetype.
    Which is the entire point of having Secondary Archetypes.
    So... no. What I said about secondary roles is not off-topic.

    The OP asks, "If my secondary is Rogue, will my attacks do bleed damage?"
    The answer to that is - Yes. There will be a Rogue augment School that includes Bleed augments.

    The OP asks, "If your primary is Tank, will you be shoehorned into playing a supportive/tanky role? Or can you choose a secondary that will allow you to deal more damage and make your role more of a heavy damage dealer?"
    The answer to that is - Choosing Rogue as a Secondary Archetype will provide access to the secondary Trinity role of DPS and will allow you to add more burst DPS to your Tank Active Skills. Your primary Trinity role will still be tank, but your secondary Trinity role will allow you to secondarily be a heavy damage dealer by adding Rogue augments to your Tank Active Skills.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Ironhope wrote: »
    Just curious NiKr, do you think I'm too pretentious or want a fantasy which is too rare?

    Is the dps, melee, holy themed fantasy that nieche?
    I wouldn't know either way, cause I don't care about that specific combination, nor do I really care for pure RP.
    Ironhope wrote: »
    It's a completely different fantasy, at least until you merge it with a cleric to make a highsword (dps holy themed melee, which is probably the closest thing to the fantasy I want).
    Ah, so your issue is just with the first 25 lvls. Got it.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    I don't know why you think anything I said was a aggressive.

    I don't know where you're from and with who you hang on but let's be real ''LMFAO, LMAO
    No.'' is rude as hell.
    Dygz wrote: »
    If I wanted to be aggresive, I would have written something like, "You are stupid as fuck. I don't know why you're even wasting our time with that shit."

    Agression =/= savagery, although they do often work hand in hand.

    Dygz wrote: »
    My laughing at your assertion that a Rogue is not a role is not aggressive.

    Ridiculing somebody is rude and rudeness is a form of verbal agression.
    I mean, we're on a forum, what other kind of agression could we have talked about?

    Either way, as the AOC wiki says, yes Rogue is not a role (trinity role = what I was obviously talking about)
    Dygz wrote: »
    LMAO
    I didn't suggest that anything can have the Trinity role of tank.
    An x/Tank is literally a type of tank.
    Dygz wrote: »
    But it's still missing the key point that a Rogue/x can have more than one Trinity role.

    Sure, in the same sense a cleric/cleric with the right gear combination, buffs, etc can be a type of tank in certain circumstances.

    But neither the cleric/cleric under the right cirumstances nor the x/tank under the right circumstances have a tank role in the trinity system.

    Sure, ''secondary roles'' are a different matter. We can agree on that I think based on how you mentioned it. But that was off-topic in relationship to what I said.






  • NiKr wrote: »
    I wouldn't know either way, cause I don't care about that specific combination, nor do I really care for pure RP.

    I forgot to mention that I like the gameplay style as well
    (resilient heavy armour, off-heal abilities, physical + magic melee dps hybrid) so it's not something purely RP.
    NiKr wrote: »
    Ah, so your issue is just with the first 25 lvls. Got it.

    I mean, don't you think its a bit unfair to ask that of an mmo-RPg player?


  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Rude is not the same thing as aggressive.
    I am nice, but not polite.

    Secondary roles are not "a different matter" when the OP literally asks "If my secondary is Rogue, will my attacks do bleed damage?"
    and also asks if it's possible for their Tank/x to deal more heavy damage/dps with Rogue as a secondary.


    Ironhope wrote: »
    Sure, in the same sense a cleric/cleric with the right gear combination, buffs, etc can be a type of tank in certain circumstances.

    But neither the cleric/cleric under the right cirumstances nor the x/tank under the right circumstances have a tank role in the trinity system.
    It is not at all in the same sense.
    A Cleric/Tank literally is a Tank and can use tanking abilities in the form of augments, rather than Active Skills. Just don't expect them to out tank the Tank/x in an 8-person group.


  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ironhope wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    I wouldn't know either way, cause I don't care about that specific combination, nor do I really care for pure RP.

    I forgot to mention that I like the gameplay style as well
    (resilient heavy armour, off-heal abilities, physical + magic melee dps hybrid) so it's not something purely RP.
    NiKr wrote: »
    Ah, so your issue is just with the first 25 lvls. Got it.

    I mean, don't you think its a bit unfair to ask that of an mmo-RPg player?


    Let us combine our powers and cast Resurrection on this topic for another Forum Raid on the "We Haven't Heard More From Intrepid Yet" encounter.

    My thanks to OP for being willing to sponsor this instance, since we who have run it before get a debuff to Engagement and Credibility just for being here. Shoutouts to SirChancelot for bringing the Echoes Of The Past item to lessen that debuff.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Ironhope wrote: »
    I mean, don't you think its a bit unfair to ask that of an mmo-RPg player?
    A few days of one "class" and then years of your preferred one - no that doesn't seem the least bit unfair to me.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    I am nice, but not polite.

    Ridiculing others (while ironically being wrong yourself) is not being nice.
    Dygz wrote: »
    Secondary roles are not "a different matter"

    Considering I was talking about primary role and you came talking about secondary roles, I'd say it is.
    Dygz wrote: »
    when the OP literally asks

    You were replying to me talking about primary role, you were not replying to the OP.
    Dygz wrote: »
    It is not at all in the same sense.
    A Cleric/Tank literally is a Tank

    As far as the trinity role system is concerned?


  • IronhopeIronhope Member
    edited August 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    A few days of one "class" and then years of your preferred one - no that doesn't seem the least bit unfair to me.

    (Will probably be closer to months for me who plays 2-3 hours, some days)

    To me it really is, I'm basically being denied what I want to play for the first 25 levels, for the part of the game which is most new, most magical, most charming.

    That really sucks for me.

    At this point in development I doubt anything can change this.

    But who knows, maybe 2h heavy armor dps-talent cleric with fighter as secondary archetype stomps lol.




  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Ironhope wrote: »
    That really sucks for me.
    If this system grinds your gears this much or if you are not planning on playing the game for years to come (at your scale that being decades of your preferred class) - guess this is not the game for you.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ironhope wrote: »
    Ridiculing others (while ironically being wrong yourself) is not being nice.
    LMAO
    I laugh in the face of absurdity.
    Nice; but not polite.


    Ironhope wrote: »
    You were replying to me talking about primary role, you were not replying to the OP.
    I was replying to you... in reference to the OP's topic.
    In order to clarify - especially for the OP.


    Ironhope wrote: »
    As far as the trinity role system is concerned?
    Yes. The entire purpose of having Secondary Archetypes is to allow players to move their primary Trinity role closer to a secondary Trinity role. Precisely so that we are not stuck with just one Trinity role for the rest of the game.
  • IronhopeIronhope Member
    edited August 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    If this system grinds your gears this much or if you are not planning on playing the game for years to come (at your scale that being decades of your preferred class) - guess this is not the game for you.

    Pointing out a notable design flaw (it doesn't only affect people who want to be a crusader, but also those who want to be a death knight, warlock and many other classical, base fantasies - gameplay styles) is pointing out a notable design flaw.

    What I do or how I feel is irrelevant.

    The flaw will still be a flaw and it's going to affect me and loads of people who will want to play X but will be forced to play something notable different for weeks/a month+.

    If its really that important to you to know how I will react/deal with the issue, well, simple.

    I will just go for the casual experience and since I enjoy leveling and won't be in any hurry I will just level a fighter-->highblade and a cleric-->templar at the same time and see what I like more.

    I've never been the kind to go

    675fbf80eabf11721c93f345a156b40f.jpg

    over a game, that would be just stupid

    I will take the game for what it is just like I've done with every game before and that will be that.

    But since my feedback has been asked for many times, explicitly and politely and I really like what the devs have been doing so far, I feel like me answering and giving my feedback is only fair.

    And this is my feedback: I really think the class system could have been better designed. It will be a bitter pill to swallow for for all the people who will want to play warlock, death knight, crusader, necromancer, etc to play something else for so long.

    That's not even the biggest problem I see with the system either way. My greatest fear (at least in part justified by what we've seen and heard so far) is that Intrepid will take the easy but bad route out of the issue and the secondary archetypes will provide little more than a few visual and minor stat changes (so basically really boring stuff).
    But alas, that's off-topic and not worth going into, at least until alpha2 comes out and sheds some light on the matter.

    I mean, I really like the idea of combining classes.... but I feel a more gradual and fluid system would have been better.

    Maybe a diablo style talent tree system where you slowly create whatever type of character you want (with the colossal talent tree having a holy magic branch, a melee branch, a death branch, a caster branch, and by combining them slowly and organically you get what you want)

    5lwgwsozakgt.png
    https://preview.redd.it/4iyi967kouu51.jpg?width=1731&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b5a607c84a37983a75cc51d4466d479b30625bd0

    But they will realistically not change anything at this point.

    So yeah, alpha 2, can't wait for you (late 2023 tm).



  • Azherae wrote: »
    Let us combine our powers and cast Resurrection on this topic for another Forum Raid on the "We Haven't Heard More From Intrepid Yet" encounter.

    I agree it's a ressurected topic and I agree we should wait till alpha2 or at least a major dev update on the topic.
    Didn't say otherwise Az.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Ironhope wrote: »
    That's not even the biggest problem I see with the system either way. My greatest fear is that Intrepid will take the easy but bad route out of the issue and the secondary archetypes will provide little more than a few visual and minor stat changes (so basically really boring stuff).
    But alas, that's off-topic and not worth going into, at least until alpha2 comes out and sheds some light on the matter.
    I'm almost betting that this will be the case. I can hope all I want that augments will somehow be these amazing changes to our skills and their effects, but I'm fairly sure it'll never be that, so I'd rather just prepare for a barebones archetype gameplay w/ barely any changes to it after the class acquisition.

    And the feedback is completely fine, but considering that we're 5 years into development, drastically changing the whole class system would either delay the release even more than it already has been or just make another NW out of Ashes. And that is why I said that the game might not fit your preferences.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Ironhope wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    I wouldn't know either way, cause I don't care about that specific combination, nor do I really care for pure RP.

    I forgot to mention that I like the gameplay style as well
    (resilient heavy armour, off-heal abilities, physical + magic melee dps hybrid) so it's not something purely RP.
    NiKr wrote: »
    Ah, so your issue is just with the first 25 lvls. Got it.

    I mean, don't you think its a bit unfair to ask that of an mmo-RPg player?


    Let us combine our powers and cast Resurrection on this topic for another Forum Raid on the "We Haven't Heard More From Intrepid Yet" encounter.

    My thanks to OP for being willing to sponsor this instance, since we who have run it before get a debuff to Engagement and Credibility just for being here. Shoutouts to SirChancelot for bringing the Echoes Of The Past item to lessen that debuff.

    Here to support
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Ironhope wrote: »
    I agree it's a ressurected topic and I agree we should wait till alpha2 or at least a major dev update on the topic.
    Didn't say otherwise Az.

    I wasn't being sarcastic, I feel just as strongly about this as you do, and I agree with you entirely about it being 'unfair' to have to play 25 levels of something you don't necessarily gel with before you can even start transforming it.

    Given the type of person I am, your response is reasonable, just letting you know that on this front, I'm with you entirely, and continue to hope that Heavy Armor DPS Cleric works for you early on.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • JudethJudeth Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »

    Let us combine our powers and cast Resurrection on this topic for another Forum Raid on the "We Haven't Heard More From Intrepid Yet" encounter.

    My thanks to OP for being willing to sponsor this instance, since we who have run it before get a debuff to Engagement and Credibility just for being here. Shoutouts to SirChancelot for bringing the Echoes Of The Past item to lessen that debuff.

    Here to support

    I am currently bed ridden, and truly appreciate the risks taken to be here. Now I can see a glimpse of hope in the future.
  • Ironhope wrote: »
    What we do know is that if you, for example, chose a tank then that's that, you will be a tank for the rest of the game.

    In regards to how big of a difference the secondary archetype makes, we just don't know.

    Every single quote we got is highly interpretable (while respecting the quotes to the letter you could design either a secondary archetype that brings huge differences or that brings no real ones, but rather cosmetic changes).

    We will only really know when Alpha 2 hits (which could take even more than a year from now).

    The difference the secondary archetype brings could be as massive as being the equivalent or near-equivalent of a wow spec (while not changing your role, such as making you a tank from a support or something like that) or simply being a cosmetic pack combined with some minor buffs/quality of life improvements.

    Personally I hope they will take some risks and go for the more complex path, because if they don't, they will disappoint a lot of people.
    Hey I was wondering on how likely you guys think it is for the rouge augment to include stealth for other classes. for example a Shadowmancer(Mage/Rouge) would be able to stealth albeit potentially at limited capabilities when compared to the rouge archetype.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Kingkan47 wrote: »
    Ironhope wrote: »
    What we do know is that if you, for example, chose a tank then that's that, you will be a tank for the rest of the game.

    In regards to how big of a difference the secondary archetype makes, we just don't know.

    Every single quote we got is highly interpretable (while respecting the quotes to the letter you could design either a secondary archetype that brings huge differences or that brings no real ones, but rather cosmetic changes).

    We will only really know when Alpha 2 hits (which could take even more than a year from now).

    The difference the secondary archetype brings could be as massive as being the equivalent or near-equivalent of a wow spec (while not changing your role, such as making you a tank from a support or something like that) or simply being a cosmetic pack combined with some minor buffs/quality of life improvements.

    Personally I hope they will take some risks and go for the more complex path, because if they don't, they will disappoint a lot of people.
    Hey I was wondering on how likely you guys think it is for the rouge augment to include stealth for other classes. for example a Shadowmancer(Mage/Rouge) would be able to stealth albeit potentially at limited capabilities when compared to the rouge archetype.

    It is strongly expected by most people.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm expecting a Rogue Stealth School.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I'm expecting a Rogue Stealth School.

    I'm about it, but I wonder what kind of janky things can come from that.

    Sneaky stealth tanks pulls? Hidden healers in battlegrounds? Sounds entertaining.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I wonder how "counter stealth" is going to be implemented.

    You cant have a good stealth system unless there is some way to fight against it.
  • Long-Term Stealth for Rogue primaries
    Short-Term Stealth for Rogue secondaries like
    • Stealth during a charge
    • Stealth for X-Seconds after Blinking for a Mage
    • Roll + Stealth for a Ranger
    • Short term stealth windows after using certain skills
    • Bonus effect from certain abilities when used out of stealth

    Stuff like that.
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