Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I mean... I think it might feel better to say:
If you chose a Rogue as your Primary Archetype, you will be a Rogue for the rest of the game.
You can choose to be a Shadowblade and change to something other than being a Rogue later in the game.
Same for x/Tanks.
Rogue isn't a role.
Dps is the role.
I mean, you will still be just a dps, a harder to kill dps (something I hope they do in a creative way, not via boring state alterations), but still a dps.
I do have to say I wish the class system in ashes was a a bit different....
As someone wanting to go for the crusader fantasy (holy knight dps), I find leveling as a fighter to be a pretty bitter pill to swallow.
So considering that, why do you find that fighter doesn't fit your preference?
Rogue is a role. Especially in an RPG that is balanced around an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype.
What you mean is that Rogue is not the Trinity role. DPS is the Trinity role.
RPGs have variety of roles besides just the Trinity roles.
LMAO
No.
In an 8-person group, Tank/x is designed to be the main tank.
That does not mean that a Rogue/Tank cannot be the main tank in a group that does not have a Tank/x.
Also, a Tank/Cleric could be the main healer in a group that does not have a Cleric/x.
There could also be a Rogue/Cleric in that group acting as a healer.
There could also be a Fighter/Cleric in that group acting as a healer.
Especially true in groups with less than 8 people.
Even in 8-person group
A Rogue/Tank can do some tanking as well as DPS, so is not "just" DPS.
A Rogue/Cleric can do some healing as well as DPS, so is not "just" DPS.
A Rogue/x in an 8-person group will primarily be DPS. And can also be something else secondarily.
And, that still means that an x/Rogue can change their secondary Trinity role.
And an x/Tank can change their secondary Trinity role.
An x/Tank is "a Tank". And does not have to be a (secondary) Trinity role tank for the rest of the game.
Also, if there is a Master Gatherer Tank/Cleric tagging along with an 8-person group that has a Knight who will be main tank - that Paladin might choose to do more healing than tanking.
I believed it was obvious that I meant that Rogue is not a Trinity role, but then, when the one you're talking to is insincere and hellbent on generally being agressive for no reason, there's no amount of precision in speech or gesture to satisfy said person.
Sure, under the right circumstances, anything can be a tank, a rogue/rogue, a cleric/cleric, whatever.
That's clearly not the sense of what I meant.
A rogue/x will (most likely, based on what we know so far) still be a DPS as far as the trinity role system is concerned.
That was the topic and that's what I said.
''can change their secondary trinity role''
who said anything about secondary trinity roles? That's an offtopic discussion you started randomly on your own.
I said they can't change their trinity role from dps to tank or healer, which is the case
Is the dps, melee, holy themed fantasy that nieche?
Not if you want the Retribution Paladin Crusader.
I mean, if you google Crusader now too, most images will be with a guy with a big sword, a dps focused combatant.
For that the only thing you can do is pick a fighter and then go cleric as secondary archetype.
So I, someone focusing on the holy fantasy, will have to play a fighter (a complete different fantasy) for a large part of the game to get to something relatively close to what I want.
I am still hopeful that a cleric/fighter with the right gear, talents and tattoos will nonetheless be capable of being that retribution paladin type fantasy... but yeah, that's probably not going to be the case.
I actually expect cleric/tank/bard to level faster because
A) they will have 0 problems finding dungeon groups for leveling
I mean, for all we know, questing is the best way of leveling, but I personally don't expect it.
Not that I mind leveling slowly, I actually enjoy it, assuming the story, gameplay and ambiance of the game in general is good.
It's a completely different fantasy, at least until you merge it with a cleric to make a highsword (dps holy themed melee, which is probably the closest thing to the fantasy I want).
It's like going to a restaurant while craving for some pizza only to find out you will have to go through two courses of soups to get to the pizza you want.
If I wanted to be aggresive, I would have written something like, "You are stupid as fuck. I don't know why you're even wasting our time with that shit."
What I replied to was your comment: "What we do know is that if you, for example, chose a tank then that's that, you will be a tank for the rest of the game."
Archetype is also a type of role. So, no... choosing "a tank" is not clear whether you mean Archetype role or Trinity role.
Which is why I replied that it might be better to use Rogue... if you are referring to Archetype.
Since you meant Trinity role... it would have been clearer to use choosing "a dps" as your example.
And all of that is OK.
We aren't always as clear as we might...hope...to be.
We can add more clarity as people respond to what we wrote...if something was misunderstood.
My laughing at your assertion that a Rogue is not a role is not aggressive.
It's just laughing at the absurdity of the suggestion that Rogue is not a role in an RPG.
LMAO
I didn't suggest that anything can have the Trinity role of tank.
An x/Tank is literally a type of tank. Any x/Tank has a secondary Trinity role of tank.
An x/Rogue has a secondary Trinity role of dps.
An x/Cleric has a secondary Trinity role of healer/support.
That's not what you actually said. That may be what you meant.
But it's still missing the key point that a Rogue/x can have more than one Trinity role.
A Rogue/x is primarily a DPS and can secondarily be a Trinity role of tank or healer/support. And, that secondary Trinity role can change throughout the life of the game.
I said something about secondary Trinity roles -I said it- because it's important for people to understand that each class has a primary Trinity role and a secondary Trinity role.
So it is not the case that we are stuck with just one Trinity role for the rest of the game when we choose a primary Trinity role.
The case is that you are stuck with the Primary Archetype once you choose your Primary Acrhetype. Your Trinity role -especially your secondary Trinity role- has flexibility based on your choice of Secondary Archetype.
Which is the entire point of having Secondary Archetypes.
So... no. What I said about secondary roles is not off-topic.
The OP asks, "If my secondary is Rogue, will my attacks do bleed damage?"
The answer to that is - Yes. There will be a Rogue augment School that includes Bleed augments.
The OP asks, "If your primary is Tank, will you be shoehorned into playing a supportive/tanky role? Or can you choose a secondary that will allow you to deal more damage and make your role more of a heavy damage dealer?"
The answer to that is - Choosing Rogue as a Secondary Archetype will provide access to the secondary Trinity role of DPS and will allow you to add more burst DPS to your Tank Active Skills. Your primary Trinity role will still be tank, but your secondary Trinity role will allow you to secondarily be a heavy damage dealer by adding Rogue augments to your Tank Active Skills.
I don't know where you're from and with who you hang on but let's be real ''LMFAO, LMAO
No.'' is rude as hell.
Agression =/= savagery, although they do often work hand in hand.
Ridiculing somebody is rude and rudeness is a form of verbal agression.
I mean, we're on a forum, what other kind of agression could we have talked about?
Either way, as the AOC wiki says, yes Rogue is not a role (trinity role = what I was obviously talking about)
Sure, in the same sense a cleric/cleric with the right gear combination, buffs, etc can be a type of tank in certain circumstances.
But neither the cleric/cleric under the right cirumstances nor the x/tank under the right circumstances have a tank role in the trinity system.
Sure, ''secondary roles'' are a different matter. We can agree on that I think based on how you mentioned it. But that was off-topic in relationship to what I said.
I forgot to mention that I like the gameplay style as well
(resilient heavy armour, off-heal abilities, physical + magic melee dps hybrid) so it's not something purely RP.
I mean, don't you think its a bit unfair to ask that of an mmo-RPg player?
I am nice, but not polite.
Secondary roles are not "a different matter" when the OP literally asks "If my secondary is Rogue, will my attacks do bleed damage?"
and also asks if it's possible for their Tank/x to deal more heavy damage/dps with Rogue as a secondary.
It is not at all in the same sense.
A Cleric/Tank literally is a Tank and can use tanking abilities in the form of augments, rather than Active Skills. Just don't expect them to out tank the Tank/x in an 8-person group.
Let us combine our powers and cast Resurrection on this topic for another Forum Raid on the "We Haven't Heard More From Intrepid Yet" encounter.
My thanks to OP for being willing to sponsor this instance, since we who have run it before get a debuff to Engagement and Credibility just for being here. Shoutouts to SirChancelot for bringing the Echoes Of The Past item to lessen that debuff.
Ridiculing others (while ironically being wrong yourself) is not being nice.
Considering I was talking about primary role and you came talking about secondary roles, I'd say it is.
You were replying to me talking about primary role, you were not replying to the OP.
As far as the trinity role system is concerned?
(Will probably be closer to months for me who plays 2-3 hours, some days)
To me it really is, I'm basically being denied what I want to play for the first 25 levels, for the part of the game which is most new, most magical, most charming.
That really sucks for me.
At this point in development I doubt anything can change this.
But who knows, maybe 2h heavy armor dps-talent cleric with fighter as secondary archetype stomps lol.
I laugh in the face of absurdity.
Nice; but not polite.
I was replying to you... in reference to the OP's topic.
In order to clarify - especially for the OP.
Yes. The entire purpose of having Secondary Archetypes is to allow players to move their primary Trinity role closer to a secondary Trinity role. Precisely so that we are not stuck with just one Trinity role for the rest of the game.
Pointing out a notable design flaw (it doesn't only affect people who want to be a crusader, but also those who want to be a death knight, warlock and many other classical, base fantasies - gameplay styles) is pointing out a notable design flaw.
What I do or how I feel is irrelevant.
The flaw will still be a flaw and it's going to affect me and loads of people who will want to play X but will be forced to play something notable different for weeks/a month+.
If its really that important to you to know how I will react/deal with the issue, well, simple.
I will just go for the casual experience and since I enjoy leveling and won't be in any hurry I will just level a fighter-->highblade and a cleric-->templar at the same time and see what I like more.
I've never been the kind to go
over a game, that would be just stupid
I will take the game for what it is just like I've done with every game before and that will be that.
But since my feedback has been asked for many times, explicitly and politely and I really like what the devs have been doing so far, I feel like me answering and giving my feedback is only fair.
And this is my feedback: I really think the class system could have been better designed. It will be a bitter pill to swallow for for all the people who will want to play warlock, death knight, crusader, necromancer, etc to play something else for so long.
That's not even the biggest problem I see with the system either way. My greatest fear (at least in part justified by what we've seen and heard so far) is that Intrepid will take the easy but bad route out of the issue and the secondary archetypes will provide little more than a few visual and minor stat changes (so basically really boring stuff).
But alas, that's off-topic and not worth going into, at least until alpha2 comes out and sheds some light on the matter.
I mean, I really like the idea of combining classes.... but I feel a more gradual and fluid system would have been better.
Maybe a diablo style talent tree system where you slowly create whatever type of character you want (with the colossal talent tree having a holy magic branch, a melee branch, a death branch, a caster branch, and by combining them slowly and organically you get what you want)
https://preview.redd.it/4iyi967kouu51.jpg?width=1731&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b5a607c84a37983a75cc51d4466d479b30625bd0
But they will realistically not change anything at this point.
So yeah, alpha 2, can't wait for you (late 2023 tm).
I agree it's a ressurected topic and I agree we should wait till alpha2 or at least a major dev update on the topic.
Didn't say otherwise Az.
And the feedback is completely fine, but considering that we're 5 years into development, drastically changing the whole class system would either delay the release even more than it already has been or just make another NW out of Ashes. And that is why I said that the game might not fit your preferences.
Here to support
I wasn't being sarcastic, I feel just as strongly about this as you do, and I agree with you entirely about it being 'unfair' to have to play 25 levels of something you don't necessarily gel with before you can even start transforming it.
Given the type of person I am, your response is reasonable, just letting you know that on this front, I'm with you entirely, and continue to hope that Heavy Armor DPS Cleric works for you early on.
I am currently bed ridden, and truly appreciate the risks taken to be here. Now I can see a glimpse of hope in the future.
It is strongly expected by most people.
I'm about it, but I wonder what kind of janky things can come from that.
Sneaky stealth tanks pulls? Hidden healers in battlegrounds? Sounds entertaining.
You cant have a good stealth system unless there is some way to fight against it.
Short-Term Stealth for Rogue secondaries like
Stuff like that.