There should be sub tokens in AoC

Intrepid might as well make some money gold selling through sub tokens before the game inevitably implodes on itself from gold farmers and bots. At least then extremely poor people from poor countries will be able to play before it happens.

I don't think people understand how much gold farming is going to destroy this game. It's more centered around PvP than any MMO I have seen and it's very market heavy. Just wait until people find out someones dropping 20k to outpace everyone in the game and become and unstoppable force within a few weeks. Buying all the dragon eggs, being completely decked out in legendaries, them and their band of P2W buddies, a band of paid mercenaries, paying to have unstoppable caravans. Owning all the castles and taxing at a ridiculous rate to make even more money and solidify their spot at the top. Fun!

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Ludullu

ChipsAhoy007 wrote: »

Bots are so humanlike in OSRS that the most complex bot detection software in the gaming industry, bans actual players for seeming like bots. It's actually impressive, both the bots and the bot detection.

This sounds more like an OSRS issue rather than just a bot one. L2 had click to move and stationary combat and even there you could distinguish a bot from a human quite easily, unless a human was specifically trying to look like a bot.

Ashes combat seems to be way more complex, so it's gonna be even harder to make a human-like bot that's gonna be indistinguishable from a live player.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

ChipsAhoy007 wrote: »

Bots are so humanlike in OSRS that the most complex bot detection software in the gaming industry, bans actual players for seeming like bots. It's actually impressive, both the bots and the bot detection.

This sounds more like a OSRS issue rather than just a bot one. L2 had click to move and stationary combat and even there you could distinguish a bot from a human quite easily, unless a human was specifically trying to look like a bot.

Ashes combat seems to be way more complex, so it's gonna be even harder to make a human-like bot that's gonna be indistinguishable from a live player.

This is not an OSRS issue.

It is not complex to make bots that act like people.

If anything it's the opposite. It's harder for an optimized player to not appear to be a bot.

Writing bots for combat is not as hard as you might think.

Writing bots that will get regular players banned and make people have to tiptoe around it, is even more interesting because it slows down the process of catching them.

I'm genuinely worried for myself in this game because I 'play like a bot' AND I make no effort to hide the fact that I know how to write them. I'm gonna be under investigation like half the time.

PherPhur

Nerror wrote: »

ChipsAhoy007 wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

ChipsAhoy007 wrote: »

Intrepid might as well make some money gold selling through sub tokens before the game inevitably implodes on itself from gold farmers and bots. At least then extremely poor people from poor countries will be able to play before it happens.

I don't think people understand how much gold farming is going to destroy this game. It's more centered around PvP than any MMO I have seen and it's very market heavy. Just wait until people find out someones dropping 20k to outpace everyone in the game and become and unstoppable force within a few weeks. Buying all the dragon eggs, being completely decked out in legendaries, them and their band of P2W buddies, a band of paid mercenaries, paying to have unstoppable caravans. Owning all the castles and taxing at a ridiculous rate to make even more money and solidify their spot at the top. Fun!

Yeah that's not how the game and endgame resources is going to work at all. Never played Eve Online right?

I take it you're going to tell me how the supply is so high that the items never run out. Dragon eggs will never be like that. Actually a lot of things won't be like that for a long time, but dragon eggs will never be like that.

No, quite the opposite. Supply of the legendary stuff will be controlled by the big guilds/alliances. Regardless of how much ingame gold anyone has.

Oh you mean to say it won't even be for sale. That would be refreshing, though very unrealistic. I don't know if EVE just restricts the ability to even sell these things or if the community is so old they haven't found out about a system similar to GDKPs in WoW.

But we will most likely see these things for sale(from what I understand they can be sold, I know dragon eggs can be) from people looking to get money to do other things in game such as build up another node or declare a war on a node(which has been said by Steven to cost as much as the value of the node, i.e. insanely expensive, enough to warrant selling legendaries and dragon eggs).

Hinotori

ChipsAhoy007 wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

ChipsAhoy007 wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

ChipsAhoy007 wrote: »

Intrepid might as well make some money gold selling through sub tokens before the game inevitably implodes on itself from gold farmers and bots. At least then extremely poor people from poor countries will be able to play before it happens.

I don't think people understand how much gold farming is going to destroy this game. It's more centered around PvP than any MMO I have seen and it's very market heavy. Just wait until people find out someones dropping 20k to outpace everyone in the game and become and unstoppable force within a few weeks. Buying all the dragon eggs, being completely decked out in legendaries, them and their band of P2W buddies, a band of paid mercenaries, paying to have unstoppable caravans. Owning all the castles and taxing at a ridiculous rate to make even more money and solidify their spot at the top. Fun!

Yeah that's not how the game and endgame resources is going to work at all. Never played Eve Online right?

I take it you're going to tell me how the supply is so high that the items never run out. Dragon eggs will never be like that. Actually a lot of things won't be like that for a long time, but dragon eggs will never be like that.

No, quite the opposite. Supply of the legendary stuff will be controlled by the big guilds/alliances. Regardless of how much ingame gold anyone has.

Oh you mean to say it won't even be for sale. That would be refreshing, though very unrealistic. I don't know if EVE just restricts the ability to even sell these things or if the community is so old they haven't found out about a system similar to GDKPs in WoW.

But we will most likely see these things for sale(from what I understand they can be sold, I know dragon eggs can be) from people looking to get money to do other things in game such as build up another node or declare a war on a node(which has been said by Steven to cost as much as the value of the node, i.e. insanely expensive, enough to warrant selling legendaries and dragon eggs).

See the issue with this is if you RMT to get that massive amount of gold or if you RMT for the egg itself and trade it for something simple (like a stick)

It's extremely easy to track on an internal trading spreadsheet (which I would assume IS would have since the game itself will be adjusting costs of certificates being sold and so on)

Which makes banning people who engage in these activities insanely easy. They do this in EvE online all the time, you see ships full of 89 skill injectors getting blown up so the person looting it gets them. But the value of the ship wreck is so high it flags in the system and bans the player.

PherPhur

Azherae wrote: »

Bots should be defeated by system design.

RMT weakens once bots are pushed back against.

If you see profitable bottable designs in Alpha-2, make noise.

Other than that it's just 'slightly more players than one would like' and 'people who buy gold from those players, who should be banned anyway'.

It definitely does weaken them, but only a dent, which is fine, I just expect more talk and resolution on the issue. The bots are so incredibly well done these days that they are indistinguishable from real players.

I don't expect to see bots in Alpha-2, but they will certainly come pouring in shortly after launch, likes flies on shit(money, not AoC)

It might be a smaller increase in players relative to the overall population, but they will be bots and gold farmers, people who do just that. I wouldn't call it "slight" at all. And there are no workable mechanisms to ban gold buyers. Never really has been apart from direct proof. For all any person or system knows someone is just being given that gold for any number of reasons apart from buying it. Same goes for gold farmers and sellers.

Azherae

ChipsAhoy007 wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Bots should be defeated by system design.

RMT weakens once bots are pushed back against.

If you see profitable bottable designs in Alpha-2, make noise.

Other than that it's just 'slightly more players than one would like' and 'people who buy gold from those players, who should be banned anyway'.

It definitely does weaken them, but only a dent, which is fine, I just expect more talk and resolution on the issue. The bots are so incredibly well done these days that they are indistinguishable from real players.

I don't expect to see bots in Alpha-2, but they will certainly come pouring in shortly after launch, likes flies on shit(money, not AoC)

It might be a smaller increase in players relative to the overall population, but they will be bots and gold farmers, people who do just that. I wouldn't call it "slight" at all. And there are no workable mechanisms to ban gold buyers. Never really has been apart from direct proof. For all any person or system knows someone is just being given that gold for any number of reasons apart from buying it. Same goes for gold farmers and sellers.

This is actually MORESO the reason why I assume they will combat them by building strong systems and economies where botting itself is difficult to make a profit with.

The rest of the game's design lends itself toward RMT, so if there's gonna be a counter, this will be it.

PherPhur

NiKr wrote: »

ChipsAhoy007 wrote: »

Bots are so humanlike in OSRS that the most complex bot detection software in the gaming industry, bans actual players for seeming like bots. It's actually impressive, both the bots and the bot detection.

This sounds more like an OSRS issue rather than just a bot one. L2 had click to move and stationary combat and even there you could distinguish a bot from a human quite easily, unless a human was specifically trying to look like a bot.

Ashes combat seems to be way more complex, so it's gonna be even harder to make a human-like bot that's gonna be indistinguishable from a live player.

Negative ghostrider. I only feel compelled to speak my mind on this issue because I've dabbled in botting enough to know. It's all about color detection and scripting events, everything else is just key presses.

The way OSRS tackles the issue best is detecting mouse patterns that are unnatural, to which the botters have done tasks manually many times and devised scripts that take that data and repeat it and randomize it with variations derived from it. As long as the scripts are custom for each person they bypass bot detection 100% of the time.

If they aren't custom, as long as they aren't public and used by everyone and their grandmothers, they have a pretty low ban rate.

Ludullu

Well then I suggest not playing Ashes at all because it'll be completely bot-ridden. And if a lot of people don't play because of that (and I suggest they do exactly that), then it's gonna be more space for bots like me

CROW3

The chicken-little is strong with this one.

Selling currency tokens is P2W. So, by telling Intrepid they 'should' do this, you're recommending that Intrepid prevent fires in their building by burning it to the ground. Brilliant.

RMT is not going to be 100% stopped. Can Intrepid set policy, reinforce that policy with best practice, and reduce RMT where they can as much as possible? That's what we're all hoping for. But if they reduce the impact by 80% (theoretically) would this be enough to not burn down the building? If not, what's your threshold? 90%? 95%?

If you want 100% security with 0% impact of botting and/or RMT on an mmo the best strategy is to not launch the game.

PherPhur

Natasha wrote: »

Also selling tokens for gold is a shit idea and you should feel bad.

I'm lowkey not being serious. I'm just pissed this is such a big issue that so many people are passionate about not being in a game, one of the major features that is suppose to set AoC apart from it's competitors, yet when it's looking them in their face, during the alpha of a game that developers take community discussion about to mind, people don't seem to want to address the issue.

Instead, acting delusional as if it's already taken care of or not even really an issue(despite not liking P2W). Reminds me of the GW2 threads on reddit with nearly everyone claiming the game isnt P2W. I've never seen so much delusion in my entire life, and that says a lot lol.

IT WILL come, no gaming company has found a way to stop it, even ones that have been fighting it for 20 years, have developed breathtakingly complex systems against it, and have money to be made by doing so.

So what makes our input any different?

Well there is a way to put a huge dent in it. It just requires many systems, a few which AoC already have like a highly dynamic world, WPvP, bot detection software, a report button and GMs to address those reports. These alone make a somewhat small dent.

A few of the other systems are highly controversial for 2 reasons, 1. because they put a wrench in peoples ability to mathematically calculate how to get rich from a market and 2. because they make trading slightly more difficult. These would be things like removing currency or removing the ability to trade currency(replacing it with a barter system), removing an automated auction house(because it almost instantly allows items to replace currency), limiting the amount of slots in a trade window(to prevent items from replacing currency), limiting stack size especially on high value items(to prevent items from replacing currency), having no global drop table with a high variety of items with different drop chances like runes or orbs in d2 and PoE(to prevent items from replacing currency), and last but not least possibly making legendaries or meta level items bind on pickup as in WoW.

There are other methods which are semi-controversial like what one user here posted about having a report system that after so many makes a person have to enter a captcha. I really like this because if it has a longer cooldown and doesn't pop up during combat, it isn't too intrusive if it gets abused and it would help the botting situation tremendously. Although it's a little immersion breaking.

PherPhur

CROW3 wrote: »

The chicken-little is strong with this one.

Selling currency tokens is P2W. So, by telling Intrepid they 'should' do this, you're recommending that Intrepid prevent fires in their building by burning it to the ground. Brilliant.

RMT is not going to be 100% stopped. Can Intrepid set policy, reinforce that policy with best practice, and reduce RMT where they can as much as possible? That's what we're all hoping for. But if they reduce the impact by 80% (theoretically) would this be enough to not burn down the building? If not, what's your threshold? 90%? 95%?

If you want 100% security with 0% impact of botting and/or RMT on an mmo the best strategy is to not launch the game.

With their current system, 80% isn't theoretical, it's delusional.

Maybe 25%. OSRS is the benchmark to this topic. If you want, go take some time to understand the issue by trying to bot in OSRS or at least just reading about it, see the strides both Jagex and the botting community has made in 20 years and see where it currently stands.

It's jusssssst about to the point where it cannot be done any better since real players are getting banned for being bots because they cannot tell the difference. And the bots will just continue to get better.

Read the post I just made before this one, it'll paint a better picture on where we need to move beyond this without me having to repeat myself.

And my threshold is 100%, so long as it doesn't involve subtracting from the fun of the game, or if it does it replaces it with even more fun mechanics(bartering system when?).

Also, I'm not serious about the tokens. I would not be this passionate about the issue if I were. I'm just pissed.

I will fucking die on this hill. I hate P2W, and i hate money more than I hate anything in this world. Money is 100000% the most boring anti-fun cancer a game can have, even aside from the P2W. It's a cop out to a truly great game. The cheapest, most exploitable, most degenerate dopamine there is.

CROW3

Ok, well if this the hill you're going to die on, and 100% no RMT is your threshold, then you're going to die on this hill.

Sorry, no game company has the resources to establish NSA-grade surveillance on it's player population. You basically have to be omniscient and omnipotent to hit 100% (while still having a game in prod).

Good chat though.

PherPhur

NiKr wrote: »

Well then I suggest not playing Ashes at all because it'll be completely bot-ridden. And if a lot of people don't play because of that (and I suggest they do exactly that), then it's gonna be more space for bots like me

Lmfao. If you're playing the game I'm 100% going to be there either way.

Asgerr

So: no game company has ever found a way to stop RMT. But you expect Intrepid to publicly announce they have found the ultimate antidote for RMT, before they're even finished designing and producing their game?

I dunno... sounds like you're putting much too much attention on a single issue, before the game is even a thing.

Add to it, what seems to be, a serious misunderstanding of how resources and the like are generated and obtained in the economy of the game. The clear example is your perception of how dragon eggs work.

Consider that those are only obtained as drops from raid bosses, or as a reward for owning a castle in the game. There won't ever be more than maybe 7 royal mounts (flying ones) in the game. And they have a life expectancy of something like 30 days from when first used.
I really don't see how RMT bots will be able to interfere with that.

In essence, before we yell at the wall and accuse others of being short-sighted dimwits for not sharing your incandescent passion for this crusade, maybe let the game come out and be "worthy" of RMT bots. Not all will even consider it to be a necessary investment of time and resources to operate there if the game is dead on arrival or if the game never comes out.

Intrepid will do their best, and you and others don't need to rehash the same post every other day.

Ludullu

ChipsAhoy007 wrote: »

Lmfao. If you're playing the game I'm 100% going to be there either way.

So you have no hill to die on. You're not truly against RMT. You're just part of the problem of "no one cares enough to show the dev studios that if they don't take it seriously - no one will play their game". So this whole thread was a waste of time. But what else is new.

tautau

Yes, a total waste of time started by a self-proclaimed expert who also seems to think s/he knows IS anti-bot plans.

ClintHardwood

ChipsAhoy007 wrote: »

Natasha wrote: »

Also selling tokens for gold is a shit idea and you should feel bad.

I'm lowkey not being serious. I'm just pissed this is such a big issue that so many people are passionate about not being in a game, one of the major features that is suppose to set AoC apart from it's competitors, yet when it's looking them in their face, during the alpha of a game that developers take community discussion about to mind, people don't seem to want to address the issue.

Instead, acting delusional as if it's already taken care of or not even really an issue(despite not liking P2W). Reminds me of the GW2 threads on reddit with nearly everyone claiming the game isnt P2W. I've never seen so much delusion in my entire life, and that says a lot lol.

IT WILL come, no gaming company has found a way to stop it, even ones that have been fighting it for 20 years, have developed breathtakingly complex systems against it, and have money to be made by doing so.

So what makes our input any different?

Well there is a way to put a huge dent in it. It just requires many systems, a few which AoC already have like a highly dynamic world, WPvP, bot detection software, a report button and GMs to address those reports. These alone make a somewhat small dent.

A few of the other systems are highly controversial for 2 reasons, 1. because they put a wrench in peoples ability to mathematically calculate how to get rich from a market and 2. because they make trading slightly more difficult. These would be things like removing currency or removing the ability to trade currency(replacing it with a barter system), removing an automated auction house(because it almost instantly allows items to replace currency), limiting the amount of slots in a trade window(to prevent items from replacing currency), limiting stack size especially on high value items(to prevent items from replacing currency), having no global drop table with a high variety of items with different drop chances like runes or orbs in d2 and PoE(to prevent items from replacing currency), and last but not least possibly making legendaries or meta level items bind on pickup as in WoW.

There are other methods which are semi-controversial like what one user here posted about having a report system that after so many makes a person have to enter a captcha. I really like this because if it has a longer cooldown and doesn't pop up during combat, it isn't too intrusive if it gets abused and it would help the botting situation tremendously. Although it's a little immersion breaking.

Unfortunately, there are many people huffing the copium in thinking that AoC will somehow avoid RWT despite no other MMO succeeding in doing so. No, intrepid didn't crack the secret code. Yes, there'll be a lot of RWT. No, selling membership tokens won't ruin the game and yes it'll help reduce RMT.

And if you think you can captcha away bots with the rising of imaging AI, you're in for a tough break. Botting will only get worse. RMT will only get worse. There is no rational reason to think that AoC will be different besides hope that will be quickly shattered on release.

Dolyem

No P2W. Nobody is acting like people wont try to farm gold or do RMTs. Its more of a case of IS doing everything they can to mitigate the problem and count on the community to make sure people doing it are outed. Need to be super strict about it and not be afraid to lay down ban hammers while also utilizing GM's to weed out who is actually bots and sellers.

Hinotori

ClintHardwood wrote: »

Unfortunately, there are many people huffing the copium in thinking that AoC will somehow avoid RWT despite no other MMO succeeding in doing so. No, intrepid didn't crack the secret code. Yes, there'll be a lot of RWT. No, selling membership tokens won't ruin the game and yes it'll help reduce RMT.

And if you think you can captcha away bots with the rising of imaging AI, you're in for a tough break. Botting will only get worse. RMT will only get worse. There is no rational reason to think that AoC will be different besides hope that will be quickly shattered on release.

Okay... here we go, please leave EA bot #7689449 and please take your p2w microtransactions with you.

Noaani

I dont get this discussion.

It started out with RMT, but seems the OP is now concerned with bots.

For RMT, all Intrepid need to do is have the bals to go after networks, rather than buyers, sellers or farmers.

Look up sites selling gold, buy some, note the character it came from, and then investigate their activity. Find where they got that gold from (the RMT networks storage accounts), and find where that account got its gold from (the RMT networks purchasing or generating accounts).

Do this on all servers, and then all at once, ban the entire network. Not only are you banning the accounts and making it impossible for that network to sell anything without reinvesting, but since these networks tend to buy most of their product rather than generate it them self, you are also costing them what ever inventory they have on those accounts at the time (which Intrepid could sell to them to cover costs).

The way to stop RMT networks - the ONLY way - is to make it unprofitable.

As for bots, Ashes is somewhat different to most games.

Most simple bots rely on the content being known, and the bot is refined to match the content. With content changing in Ashes, this isnt really possible.

Then you have the PvP aspect. I've yet to see bots plague a game where they can be attacked by other players. I've seen the occasional bot, but they never last long.

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