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Comments
Just make the tanks be tanks and not design them to be specifically one of these roles or bind your thought process to these roles.
What i'm most worried about - PvP Tanking
The big thing we tank players care about is controlling the pace of play. This in the case of PvP means CC, which is more than stuns and can come in the form of slows, roots, silences, disarms, pulls, and all that jazz. These also make PvE tanking more interesting due to kiting and such.
Damage wise we should be capable but not overly threatening, but respectable. When combined with our CC options and defensives we can fight evenly-ish with Damage.
Tanks should be designed more for group PvP and scale extremely well there.
I especially don't know why it matters when we have 8 versions of x/Tank.
I mean... yes. I would definitely like to see opportunities to have a group comprised of:
Dreadnought, Guardian, Shadow Guardian, Sentinel, Spellstone, Brood Warden, Apostle and Siren
I would also love to see opportunities to have a group comprised of:
Minstrel, Scryer, Bladedancer, Sorcerer, Bowsinger, Charlatan, Enchanter and Argent.
That seems to already be integral to the Ashes class design.
Sure, there might be other Primary Archetypes who can off-tank.
But, if the balance of the game is to have one of each Primary Archetype in an 8-person group then several types of Fighter/x or Cleric/x should also be able to off-tank, but not be able to tank better than a Tank/x main tank.
Just as a Fighter/Cleric or a Tank/Cleric should not be able to heal better than a Cleric/x.
Is the real question:
Should the game be balanced so that Fighter/x or Cleric/x could be the main tank instead of just Tank/x??
With each class, I would like to see an ability that benefits the group outside of regular combat.
In Dragon Age Inquisition, the tank had the ability to charge, which was the only class capable of breaking a wall in a dungeon to provide access to a new area. I would very much like to see aspects like this included in the game which would then make certain classes integral to a part for access to certain areas.
While possibly more complex, I would love to see a combat system that is slightly more logical. A tank should be a frontline warrior that prevents the enemy from reaching the less protected party members.
In the glory days of D&D, attack of opportunity achieved this to some degree. A similar system would be awesome, where threat is not the means to keep attackers on the tank, but rather the risk of opening oneself up to attacks. Disengaging from a tank could open a special attack that deals massive damage (or have special effects like root and snare, or dots). Wether NPC's or monsters avoid disengaging from (or moving through) a tanks threat range could be dictated by other factors, like hate for a particular party member, or intelligence.
Such a system applies to both PvP and PvE combat, making tanks take a similar role in both engagements.
I feel like that's too closed minded, at least to my liking and my opinion. I feel like tanks, like any other class, should be able to diverge somehow from their intended role, even if they fulfill it worse of course, by changing gear or some other customizable equipment/skills etc. And also, Ashes of Creation has already done this so I'm simply responding to you, not as a suggestion. If you look at AoC's class chart u can see that there are actually 8 or so tank classes, cuz u can choose tank as your primary archetype then whatever other archetype to create a different actual "class", so there would be like 8 types of tanks already.
I would like to see a lot of different variations in tank design. For example, you could have a cloth wearing tank that uses a summon to hold aggro and cc while they empower it using supportive spells. Whereas another tank might have abilities that allow them to shield users standing behind them in a cone from frontals etc...
I think having variations like this would definitely be possible. Especially since Ashes of Creation has primary and secondary classes that augment the players abilities.
With this in mind, I feel as though Ashes should not strictly balance every single encounter for one main tank and one off tank. For me this type of design (especially) for dungeons is getting old. I think there should be a variety of different encounters that may require users to have differing numbers of tanks. Furthermore, I feel as though groups should be able to re-assign people to tanking, DPS, and healing based on secondary class.
For example, let's say I am a Tank/Cleric. For some parts of the fight I might focus on tanking as an off tank picking up adds. As the adds die and my use as a tank diminishes until the next set of adds spawn, I would hope that I could fill in as a support healer. Helping to alleviate some of the pressure on the healers during moments with high incoming damage.
Another example could be a Summoner/Tank who fills in momentarily as a tank if someone dies etc...
I think a lot of interesting things could be done with weaving between primary and secondary classes during an encounter. In my opinion it would also create more interesting gameplay for all roles.
Idk much about how the classes will end up being but I imagine they simply wanted to bring more diversity with the names so as to not call all the tanky classes "tank, defender, protector, guardian" etc cuz it could sound repetitive and dull, the classes themselves might end up being adequately tanky in their own way, some more and some less of course, that's the beauty of it, u can choose the tanky type you prefer.
Imo, tanks should be a mix of front lines defensive tankness, with various tools for gaining and holding threat, as well as physical CC and some party wide buffs.
Tank in its purest form, would be that for me. CC things like AoE short stuns, longer duration single target stuns or intimidation. Chains or a pull mechanic. Buffs to parties attack type skills like weapon speed, maybe bleeds, physical stuff.
Now the interesting thing in AoC for me are the secondary classes that will augment these things. And I think there are some no brainer options that you at Intrepid are already on the ball about. My main thought there though would be just injecting the secondary class identity into the purest tank kit. Things like smoke bombs for a Tank Rogue as the AoE CC. Maybe that would have a longer duration CC but at the cost of losing a lot of threat because once they are out of the smoke they are just gonna attack the first thing they see. Tank Ranger having a pet and more nature based augments. I have no doubt that the minds at Intrepid have all sorts of cool flavorful ways to augment the skills.
I think where tanking can really fail is lack of active mitigation skills, and gaining and holding threat. Final Fantasy 14 for example has decent active mitigation skills. They give you buffs, you stay alive and or heal. Not bad. But their Enmity stance (tank stance) is SOOOOO boring. Gaining and holding aggro in that game is too easy On the other end of the spectrum in ESO, getting threat/holding it can be tricky. A lot of the taunts are quite short lived. Its not fun reapplying single target taunts to tons of mobs...So a fine balance needs to be there.
Active block, that is a bit of a tricky one. Its a wonderful concept in action games like ESO. Really do enjoy its function. But for the tab target folk, its not as easy. Really depends how crucial the active blocking really is. If it only saves a minor amount but maybe helps hold threat, then not so bad. But if you need it just to survive as a tank like ESO, tab target folk won't be enjoying it at all.
Main vs Off tank specs, I think its as simple as "is Tank your primary or secondary class?" Primary should always have much better tanking tools and more threat. Off tankers should have situational tools and maybe more on the buffing side of things? Main tanks more of a CC role? I dunno.
Long story short, just make sure that active damage mitigation is a thing, as well as holding aggro and threat. Maybe even have passive skills that let you see the threat on targets so players can know what sup?
PS: reactive abilities can be fun too, like something popping up after a dodge or a parry.
PPS: sorry for posting so much, tanking is the best and I am very interested in how you are doing it. I appreciate the fact that you’re open to ideas and feedback.
Just realized I was off topic, too... mostly because this seems like a silly question (to me). Tank primary population will very likely be lower than any other archetype, so Tank secondary should definitely be useful! (especially considering people could swap secondary to off-tank for a raid that requires it, then go right back). Requiring 5 Tank primaries for a raid would likely just be a bottle neck or an advantage to large guilds!
Whilst tanks in games traditionally are mostly threat generation and damage mitigation, threat has always proved a bit odd in PvP instances.
I'd like to see tanks as more of a battlefield control with CC and possibly some sort of obstruction to support PvP like caravans and sieges. This would be things like a Phalanx which can extend further with more Tanks preventing enemies from getting to ranged characters or a caravan.
One of my favourite builds for tanks is always damage reflection where a good portion of you damage is built from enemy mobs hitting themselves against spikey armour.
Again, pure noob perspective, but I feel like a more active defense would be more engaging. Stuff like a 'get down mister president' ability where you jump in front of a targeted teammate, making bubble shields to give your party breathing room, tackling/tripping/throwing enemies, and generally being reactive in preventing damage. Something like that seems like it would feel more like a fight and less like an exercise in herding brain dead AI.
Of course with all the classes this game has planned, there's probably room for all kinds of options.
But all classes, in my opinion, should have a signature visually and audio impactful skill that acts a way of communicating your intentions to other players, not everyone like to talk during raid.
I imagine that this could be a good way to incorporate a multi-tank encounters without forcing it with arbitrary mechanics like a stacking debuffs or multiple enemies.
When attack is performed and it is AOE damage, the damage value should split between all targets that are impacted.
In this way you can let people to have a lot more freedom in party composition and class build configuration.
As you could run a multiple light tanks(off-tanks) that would be tactically sharing the hits that would kill any of them outright, if the damage is not shared. Or you could run a single heavy tank that can withstand the blows.
Another thing that I would like to see is something that I've experienced in TERA. Tanks had ability to protect their allies by creating a protective zone in a cone behind them, when blocking and at certain mechanics, party would have to run and hide behind their tank to survive.
Or if we take tab targeting approach it could be AOE barriers that tank would be able to place or would be placed around him.
Mitigation matters.
I would like to see tanks, being literal tanks. Something like you would imagine in modern warfare, other classes would be a foot soldier in comparison.
Every attack should have significant difference when impacting a tank versus any other class.
Main source of balance I would see in a tradeoff, where you would sacrifice mobility and agility for damage mitigation.
Thread management.
This should not be just thread generation, but also thread mitigation. Tanks should be masters of the threat.
They should be able to manipulate the threat table, here are few examples:
- generate threat for themselves
- reduce the threat generated by their party
- completely drop threat for a single ally
- freeze the threat table for a short period
- lock the opponent from switching the the target for a short period
UI is important.
It is important to see the health bar moving, but it is just as important to see what is the current state of the threat perceived by the opponent.
Don't hide things. I hate games that are trying to increase difficulty by obfuscating information instead of improving their encounter design.
Content gating.
Content should not be gated behind level or equipment. That is just so lazy. Let the people complete the content at any time, or die trying.
I should be able to attempt any encounter without restrictions. If me and my team, want to take a risk for potentially high reward and engage in content designed for higher levels or higher equipment tiers, we should be allowed to do so.
If we want to sacrifice our time for a fun challenge, let us!
If we want to run 4 tanks in a party to manage the damage received from higher tier encounters and sacrifice the dps roles to do so, let us!
If I want to bring under geared and under leveled friend to play with me the content I'm currently working on. We should be allowed to do so. If I'm willing to carry the burden of having morale support accessory with me, let me!
Also, I like the idea of people who might not be playing a tank to kind of be a half decent tank in a pinch, in larger encounters or smaller ones as well. To use world of warcraft examples, the fury warrior who threw on a shield and taunted the boss to save your run on the final boss after the tank went down in UBRS. Or the healing druid who went bear and and tanked some Garr adds in Molten Core, to return back to healing after they were dead. Non-tanks being able to jump into the role into a pinch means they need tools (like taunt) and better than average mitigation, either base or with skills. The lack of tools is what prevented Paladin from filling that role back in vanilla.
ESO's tanking is set up completely differently from most other MMOs. There is no threat, some abilities just taunt the enemy to only attack you for the next 15s. This simplicity in maintaining aggro does, however, allow tanks to participate in actual fight mechanics. Here is a list of everything that would be expected of an off-tank in a fast-strats/hard-mode fight vs one of the bosses in the ESO raid Sunspire:
1. Apply your debuffs to boss/buffs to group via AoEs.
2. Pick up the 2-3 adds that spawn that take reduced damage from anything but specific AoEs dropped upon the death of other adds that do 50% of their health. These adds can one shot you, if you miss your dodge.
3. Hold these adds far enough away from group that their cone and AoE attacks do not hit group, but close enough so that you can still buff the group/debuff boss. This means that you will have little or no healing during this time, so you must be self-sufficient.
4. When the boss enters next phase, position these adds between randomly placed other adds which, upon death drop the aforementioned 50% damage AoEs, then drag the first set of adds through them.
5. Position with the rest of the group to not wipe each other during the AoE phase that does massive damage, even when not overlapping with someone else.
6. Repeat steps 1-5, except next AoE phase, you will still be holding and dealing with the adds, adding additional damage and strain on your resources.
7. Repeat steps 1-5 again.
This fight is considered one of the greatest off-tank challenges in the game, and is possibly the single most glorious encounter to play through as one. It is constantly engaging, as you nearly always have something to do. Whether it be juggling taunt on half a dozen different adds, to maintaining buffs/debuffs, to dealing with DoT damage residual from the AoE phase, to doing it all at the same time. This fight requires permanent concentration as you are often alone and dealing with a considerable challenge that shifts frequently, thus preventing it from getting boring.
TL;DR:
An off tank is still a tank, not a just a buff-stick in plate armor. Even if we are not dealing with the 40-foot-tall turd monster who's name is at the top of the screen, doesn't mean we do not want to always be tanking something ourselves. Main tank grabs the big bad? Cool, I'll take the half dozen adds that, combined, hit even harder.
ESO has some phenomenal raids for off-tanks that I would suggest checking out, such as the aforementioned Sunspire (specifically the bosses Lokkestiiz and Nahviintaas), the mini-raid Asylum Sanctorium, and Rockgrove.
We should have a variety of tank depending of their 2nd class.
A tank/mage could be better at tanking magic damage
Tank/Bard could buff him and his allies with defense for example
Tank/Summoner could summon an entity that helps at generating threat
It's just few example but that's what I think first when I think to tank and 2nd class in AoC
but for a tank to be useful it needs some basic useful spells,
1) a kind of slash for mono + small heal depending on the dps %.
2) a spell that smash on the ground for multi target + with a % of aggro
3) 2 defensive spells (which will change depending on the 2nd class) 1 physical spell and 1 magic spell depending on the situation
4) a grap to catch a mob far enough (which can also change according to the 2nd class)
5) an aggro spell (which can also change according to the 2nd class) if a player of your group dps too much.
to give you an example of the spells that change according to the second class, we can take the example of the paladin, it will be powerful against the undead, demon and any monster that are in the "dark side" but weak against humans, dwarf, etc...
he could play a role of support tank with for example a short sword and a religious book which will give various buffs like a small care against diseases or just healed the player, a buff where he reads his book which blesses the weapon of the player to inflict sacred damage in more (damage of care or magic or physical).
if we take another example number 5, the aggro spell for the paladin could become a spell that he casts from a religious book (like tearing out a page of the book a kind of small exorcism prayer that makes the mob angry and force it to attack the paladin rather than the other members of the group).
In addition to that, the book will be limited in use, we can ask a player who has a profession of scribe or the same kind to create a more powerful religious book, etc...
sorry if you don't understand something, I use a site to translate in english
What I have experienced over the past few decades in regards to tanks in most mmorpgs pvp is they just get ignored. Opponents whittle down the dps, range, support/heals etc then move to the tank(s) since most tanks in these mmos pose little to no threat with at the most their sustain dps with little to no true group support. They are just low dps damage soaking sponges with little threat.
Warhammer Online (WHO) had, in my experience, the best tank mechanics in pvp. Take the Ironbreaker for example.
1. Taunt - You enrage your opponent, interrupting any currently building abilities and forcing monsters to attack you. While taunted your opponent will take 30% more damage from your attacks. This effect will fade after 15 seconds or after your opponent has hit you 3 times.
This worked in pvp on players. If you ignored the tank in pvp you did so at your peril. Great at interrupting spells and range skills.
2. Guard - Only usable on other players. You defend one of your groupmates and try to take attacks meant for them. As long as you are within 30 feet of them, any damage that they suffer will be split evenly between the two of you, and 35% of all hate that they cause will be redirected to you.
What a great tank buff ability. Had to stay within a set range to be active, provided support, and provided another reason to not ignore the tank.
AE Snare/Roots were other tank skills in pvp that as an opponent if you didnt deal with the tanks asap you would pay a price.
Besides often being ignored tanks in many pvp mmos were easily kited by range dps classes. Range dps classes are always the most popular played in mmos because of their easy mode stay safe in range with mobility kiting any target play style. Tanks need gap closers and chain pulls at the very least if range dps isnt required to be stationary.
Nothing against the "protector" or defensive style of character, but I all the artificial threat generation to keep monsters' attention from others is an outdated concept as far as I'm concerned. It generally has to work differently from PvE to PvP so the tank role stay relevant.
There are cooler ways to protect teammates, like magical barrier, terrain control and CC status. All of which work against both mobs and enemy players.
But I have no illusion: the trinity is loved by too many.
As a PVP player I will only talk about PVP.
I stopped playing tank because of the threat system.
The threat system often works in PVE but logically not in PVP because you can't "force" a human to attack you, you can't generate threat in PVP.
What I always wanted to see as a tank in PVP is the following.
1 / A lot of AOE crowd control (even force players to stick to you for some time).
2 / A real threat system, if you don't get hit your DPS will increase and if you get hit a lot your DPS will decreased (you would see a gauge maybe). This would be innovative, and a great option because it could turn you in a good DPS if no one is attacking you!
Close range DPS should be "forced" to attack you, and it should be difficult for them to get close to casters/healers once they get next to you.
It works in PVE as well, NPC should be able to be aware of this.
3 /You should be able to actively protect your group, with shield (magic or physic one).
I love the system in DAoC, where you can protect people with your shield, it's awesome!
4 / As Ashes of Creation has a lot of class, if you are a mage/tank, you can imagine a tank 4playing from behind the line and placing barriers and shields. You could invoke clones of yourself in the battlefield. You could blind people.
In my opinion, DAoC had one of the best tanking systems, and you always had a tank in a group even in PVP.
I confess that the most frustrating part has always been realizing that the tank class is almost always modeled only for PVE, being excluded from PVP.
In some games where we have large-scale territory battles, the tank still manages to play its role, but when we talk about small-scale battles, it becomes useless.
My biggest request to the Devs is that they put some love into the tanks so we can play 2v2, 3v3 etc arenas competitively.
For this it is necessary that the tank fulfills its basic function of taking damage, in this way the tank must not die to a DPS in 1v1, but it also must not have enough damage to kill that DPS. It must be a class that others avoid facing and that within a party fit very well.
And to be useful in 2x2 or 3x3 the tank must have protection skills for its allies and a lot of crowd control on enemies. This is the role we want to play. The tank built for arena battles should be the most crowd-control classes in the game. Since we won't (probably) have much damage, the only way to fit in arenas is with protect and CC.
We really want to feel like an indestructible rock with a lot of HP and defense and we want to be able to act as an IMPORTANT support in small and large scale battles, whether defending our allies or with CC. Particularly for me, I don't find a tank with a lot of damage interesting, if your choice is to be a tank, understand that your role is to take damage without dying, use CC and defend your allies.
About the shield, I think the active block is very valid. Where there is an important mitigation of the damage, depending on the power of the shield.
I think it's worth having small circular shields for non-tank classes that choose to use a shield and the tower shield, truly heavy, for a true tank.
The Tulnar and Orc races represent me well, they seem to be races that take damage without dying.
I've seen several people reference this classic fight. Really interesting observation! I love the scene you've painted for us
Tanks are in many instances viewed as the de facto leader of a given group, they set the pace they soak the damage, with this in mind I think AoC should lean into this by implementing some of the following,
- Tanks should have skills that transfer hate gen from a given party member to them for a period of time. Eg a dps is about to enter a burst window you pop your skill and enjoy the added hate. This will encourage communication between party members, and encourage tanks to be aware of the flow of battle for their party members as well.
- Additionally I think tanks ought to have more utility in party wide damage mitigation as well as single target damage mitigation. So that larger encounters can more frequently involve mitigating and actively protecting your party members, Eating a tank buster is cool but if the buster was actually aimed at your healer and you step in and eat that damage for them I believe that leans more into the job fantasy. If your party never feels like they are in danger, you as a tank become replaceable as all you are is a damage sponge. Whereas when there is danger directed at them your skill as a tank can become the difference between a wipe and victory.
- As many have said here the role of a tank should be focused on utility not dealing a ton of big numbers. Tanks should have unique aoe taunt abilities, and several self sustain skills. However Tanks shouldn't be able to survive indefinitely without a healer. They balance is to ensure they have enough sustains that putting one down when played well is an effort, this encourages developing the skill to manage your CDs and ensuring you don't blow through them all too quickly. With this in mind I think the variety of CD's should be high but the more powerful among them should have a sufficiently long cooldown to balance.
- Tanks should have high bursts of mobility/gap closers but also have mobility constraining skills. eg. take a ground effect aoe skill for example, imagine the effect only lasts while you remain within the effect, any enemy that steps into the aoe or is within the aoe when triggered cannot leave without taking a large auto crit hit. Any party member within the effect transfers anywhere from 50-100% of the damage they receive to you. this in pvp encourages enemies to stay and fight you as well as encourages your party members to join you in the effect for the shield.
- Tanks should also have the ability to pull and/or tether enemies perhaps some will have an aoe pull or others single target, but controlling enemy movement should be a big part of the tanks utility, essentially I'd like Knocks, Roots, Pulls, Slows all part of the tanks tool kit, it shouldn't be easy to get away from a tank once they've gotten in close.
- With the there being several large scale pvp options I think one skill I'd like to see the devs play with would be making moves like aoe taunts when used in pvp settings make you the "Focused target" for your opponents or other skills to force people to deal with you in pvp. Otherwise a coordinated group will simply ignore you for the squishy members like healers etc. there should be a balance a skilled tank should be frustrating enough that you need to suck it up and kill them first, where an unskilled tank can be circumvented and ignored.
- one other thing in open world I think aoe damage mitigation should apply to any non partied green/purple player not on your target list. If I come across a dps struggling in the wild as a tank and I want to lend them aid I should be able to shield them without first sending them a party request.
.TLDR: Hate absorption/stealing from party, party-wide damage mitigation, single target mitigation, increased amount of raid wide or non tank targeted skills even while at the top of aggro list. increased variety of mitigation skills with varying effectiveness and cd time. gap closers, ground effects, knockbacks, slows, binds, pulls, tethers etc. all part of the toolkit. PVP party frustrating skills like forced targeting or other CC abilities so you can't ignore the tank in pvp. the ability to shield non-hostile non-party members in pve content.
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