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Dev Discussion #44 - Tank Participation

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  • The primary role of a tank is to attract and hold a mob or multiple mobs and be able to mitigate the damage ither through absorption or deflection.
    I think tanks in most games lack variety as the only way to play is with full plate armour and a shield i would like the ability to wear light armour and tank with a sword or a knife focusing on deflection and agility stats rather than absorption.

    As for PvP in a fight of players of similar skills and gear dps shouldnt be able to quickly outright kill the tank if anything it should take some time for multiple players to kill a tank. in a 1v1 fight a dps class should have to dedicate significant time and effort to kill a tank.

  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The problem with making tanks unkillable in pvp but not able to kill others is they get ignored. They might cc you but you just take the cc and then switch back to the original target. The only time these issues can be removed is during taunts like The High Howl (Affected targets deal less damage to anyone but the tank) and forced lock (Player can't engage anyone but the tank). The problem that happens then is that more dps players start to quit and as the majority of players are dps a large chunk of accounts get abandoned.

    A lot of dps players don't like hard cc at all. Especially when they are forced to hit a target they do not want to hit. Its a death sentence for a lightly armoured dps class to be forced to strike a tank and no one else.
  • I feel like traditional tanking mechanics are unrealistic and to be honest, a bit silly. I feel like Tanks should be actively moving, putting themselves between the source of damage and their party members to actively block or take the damage. Dodge mechanics for all classes/builds add to combat realism and allow the tank to mitigate where their attention needs to be focused. Are taunts, shouts, and other "threat generation" or better put, distraction abilities needed for a tank role? Of course, but I think the idea of off tanking could be implemented in a new and creative way by allowing other classes and builds the ability to use distraction abilities to pull the attention of combatants from other party members, allowing group play, coordination, and communication to be the key to a parties success while also allowing new and creative party compositions that can work without the mmo standard tank + healer + dps' line up.
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?

    I would like to see diversity. A bit of both. Maybe times when you need one magical and one physical tank. Maybe even and encounter where a tank isn't optimal but a bunch of off tanks are.
  • Body blocking is important!
    Also tanks should feature damage reduction to partymembers / guard mechanik, pvp taunt like in warhammer online
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Black Guard had an awesome pull. I used to pull enemy healers from the enemy rear ranks and my allies would nuke the healers. Loved playing Black Guard.
  • I think it would be interesting if you explored having the Shield protect not only the tank, but also the players behind the tank (like a cone, where the player right behind the tank gets most protection, and the players further back, and out to the sides from the cone behind the tank will take more damage.

    This would be an active mitigation and also give the off-tank an important jobb - actively guard party memebers.
  • Well i'm sorry to say that. But at the moment you created a class named "Tank" why ppl that would play main tank should play another class ?

    It's like you just condamn player to what tank are done to. So PVE fine ! they will not heal or dps (sadly for that point). But for pvp ? Good luck to balance him...

    So first for PVE. For me playing tank is a matter of time...At first, it's total fun, you learn to group mob, aggro in aoe or solo target. you learn to mitigate damage and time correclty your cooldown. Your reflexe are used to move the boss and taunt fast adds.
    After this, playing tank start to feel boring...What a tank did better than that in any mmo you played guys ? Maybe a dodge roll or a wall shield...yeah great but none game changer !!! Cause let's be honest, tank should not heal and Tank !! I don't want to see a tank able to heal himself for full all the time. A little ? why not, paladin shiets...But Dont make the cleric useless (even if right now he's OP).

    Let TANK DPS !! PLZ !!! Not easily !! But let them compete in dps !!! One mechanic for that !! COUNTERS !!! Let tank have a counter frame, an unique ability that do huge amount of damage on boss or target !! Just adjust damage to makes sucessful counter good dps, not the best but really good dps ! Maybe let elite tank that succesful every frame counter being top dps with max gear or shield but please makes tank unique to that role !! Debuff boss if the tank succesful counter the boss for example. But counter should be the new mech that make tank easy to play but hard to master !!


    FOR PVP ? Meh i'll do another topic for that ^^
  • Dev Discussion - Tank Participation
    Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?

    As someone who often plays a tank mmos. I prefer traditional roles. If I select "Tank" as a class and someone starts tanking better than me then my class is shit (or maybe I am, but lets assume I'm not). I loved the stance dancing in vanilla/classic wow as a warrior tank. And then the fury tanking later on. But a true pure tank is were home is. But players WILL find the best way to "hold threat" or protect the healers (screw the dps that take threat.. XD) Tanks, take damage, if they ain't tanking what are they doing? There's a full class called tank! You want the people who choose to be tanks to be gimped in giving damaged and farming, just to suck up damaged? They'll level at half the pace and take 2x the repair cost. And not be able to farm materials or gold at the rate other classes can.

    Maybe you're question could be better asked. "Should we have tanks in the game, or just DPS spam every event?" lol. I know that's not what you're asking by it's a pretty vague question. 40 man raid with 10 tanks that do DPS? so who do you prioritize the tank gear to? Who's going to the crashing blows from the Uber bosses? All 10 tanks as the swap out? I mean damn this is a loaded question so MANY variables. "

    Maybe you could make many tanks viable, it'll help with tank shortages, but if tanks are gimped from dps you'll still have shortages, and if they're too strong with dps you'll have dps shortages. A class/archtype has a role to play. and they need to fill that role. You're the ones that made so many lol. Why have a tank archtype if they're not the tank??
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    I don't mind the current/traditional roles of Tank and Off Tank. I don't like the current lack of things to do. Keep the roles but add more activities and versatility by adding more combat management skills.

    For example:
    1) CC - Tanks should have more stuns/roots/snares/knockdowns etc. It should feel like the tank is controlling the space around it. This includes PvP, right now you just ignore tanks and go after the DPS since modern tanks are bullet sponges, it should be a meaningful choice with consequences. For example if a group ignores the tank, they have to contend with all the CC he will impose on them while they are trying to take down the dps/healer.

    2) Support - For Tank/Off Tank setups let the Off Tank have abilities that directly support the main tank. Right now Off Tank is just the guy messing around, and doing what ever dps he can, while waiting for a swap. Adding active support functionality will give them something engaging to do and would almost create a whole new role/play-style with accompanying builds and setups. It would also make gameplay for the Main Tank far more meaningful after a swap.

    3) Area Control - Tanks should have influence on anyone in their immediate area. Enemies should notice the tanks presence because it will effect their capabilities. Allies who operate close to tank should see a benefit to offset the risk. Some games do this with "banner" or "aura" style mechanics.

    I would like to see the benefit and importance of a good tank expanded, many current games seem to want to lessen their importance.
  • GondorGondor Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 22
    A couple of things have been suggested for PvP that IMO aren't a good idea:
    • Taunts forcing the target to attack the tank / swapping their target to the tank

      Organised groups will abuse this on rotation - you will be forever stuck slapping enemy tanks cause they will just roll taunt. It can get pretty wild on a rotation - Warhammer online had 8 tanks in 24 (2 per 6), and you'd cycle a 30s CD taunt every 3-4 seconds.

    • Colour swapping target names

      Again same rotation issue applies; also plays havoc on anyone who happens to be colourblind.

    • Pulls as CC/peel

      Pulls are fine in arena or small scale, but get incredibly obnoxious and strong in bigger (lit. zergier) fights. It's a terrible experience for small scalers when fighting a zerg, getting pulled by someone you can't see in the mass, and will usually result on 1 death at a time. It doesn't promote melee fighting, it promotes pirate-ship deathballs, where your melee sits ontop of the tank, waiting for someone to be pulled in.

      The more fights scale, the worse this will get. Just look at DragonKnight chains in Elder Scrolls Online for an example of how much of a negative gameplay experience pull spam can be.

    • Channeled defensive abilities

      Seems really great - hold the shield in front of you, bracing, blocking damage for yourself and your allies behind you... the only problem is this was what "Hold the Line" in Warhammer Online was, and it sucked as a tank.

      It was a great, strong, useful ability - but it was incredibly one-dimensional. You gave up doing anything else in your rotation and would often just sit there spamming the ability. There was very little interaction; you channelled it and then waited for CD to channel again instead of bonking, yelling, and breaking kneecaps.

    • Tanks being tanks only

      I think it can be incredibly limiting for a tank to be limited to only tanking - tank availability increases when spec diversity exists. Being a fat bulwark with a shield isn't the only way to tank. Other MMOs have dabbled with it (Star Wars Old Republic with ranged tanks, WoW with caster tanks, etc.), and it's usually been met with a reasonable level of positivity.



    Moving the focus to PVE encounter design - often mob damage is scaled up so that only tanks have the mitigation to eat the hit. This is where (IMO) balance issues for PVP occur. I would consider that tanking moves into the realm of party/raid damage mitigation - just like you can have damage or heal checks for progression, a tanking check can exist in preventing raid wipe or sustain mechanics (like a heal check).

    Rotations and varied APM always feel fun for any role - tanks should be no different. I dunno about other tanks, but some of my favourite tanking moments are getting fat intervene/intercepts/guard swaps/peels in.

    The best PvP tanking experience is being a brawler though IMO. Just getting in there, clearing a path for other melee, being a real force multiplier and anchor; helping your DPS really achieve their goals and potential.
  • This is a very interesting topic. I am glad that Devs are asking as well as the community is sharing their different views.

    This is my humble opinion.

    Tank roles are very much needed in PVE. I am all for giving the Tank role some variations of playstyles. It will all come down to what the Devs had envisioned, but hopefully taking into consideration the feedback from the community. We are all grateful for the opportunity to express these, in the hopes of a better gaming experience.
    PVP is the other side of the coin. A few "recent" MMOs have incorporated new ways and/or interactions for this role in a player vs player setting. The big question will always be how to balance the different classes and how this mitigation/cc based class can be +/- on par with DPS and/or healers in a PVP setting.

    I would just pause and shift the focus to the player's environment. Making the Mobs and Bosses encourage the player to react accordingly.
    Bosses could have more awareness ... I know this will force more logistics into the already complex mechanics of the fight, but just trying to think out of the box to shift the interaction of these fights.

    - We know that all reactive creatures in the world have an "aggro radius".
    - There is the Threat list based on player damage and heals.
    - Last but not least the mechanics that were set for that particular fight.
    Not going into the details of how much HP, armor, resistance, avoidance, attack speed, GCDs, aura effects, etc.. that the boss may have ... the focus should shift to how the player will react.
    And yes, I am saying that I would love the challenge of a snappier AI.
    All that anyone can hope for is to be engaged in the fight... creating awareness to the player that:
    - if we do not react or interrupt a specific ability .. we pay for it (more damage taken or a debuff or a stun, etc).
    - if the boss has a "weakness" (not an exploit), lets rephrase "window-of-opportunity" and we don't seize it ... we pay for it (Longer fight, more/new mechanics, etc.. - please dont think about that kind of stuff ... mind control, mass fear, enrage phases ... these are stories old folk say to scare the little ones LOL).
    I bet that if anyone reads this would say .. "What you are describing is just "standard gameplay mechanics" .... But we have seen these mechanics better executed in some games than others .. why?...
    Just have the bosses slap random players or do a telegraph mechanic here or there without the tanks consent to force other players to react. (I didnt say to loose threat ... hm.. not quite, maybe) .. more interactive, challenging fights. (Don't know why, but this reminded me of WildStar, bosses and the NPCs had some cool mechanics at that time). But I started my journey with SWG, WoW, AOC (Conan), ESO, GW2, and most recently New World (A lot of fun experiences over the years). Okay, moving on...

    I believe that the Key will be in how the Devs employ Class Abilities, GCDs, ability CD and how these interact in fight mechanics. And that certain abilities should have added effects when fighting in PVE (The Effect are nulled when in PVP). It is a pickle .. no question about it...

    In my mind class roles should have "mechanic-flow" in regards of their abilities. How we strategize and employ certain abilities should empower or hinder us... That's why cooldowns, GCDs, and "ability" debuffs are essential. At least for me, it is no fun if I can have multiple buffs that make me god ... (Maybe 1 second-ish? lol) I would rather kite, sprint, roll (not jump .. never jump lol) making the encounter more thrilling and/or rewarding ....if I survive. :sweat_smile:

    My point is .. when creating the logistics of classes and their abilities not to limit, but to encourage players to decide wisely when to use a specific ability because maybe the ability CD is in a tight-ish scheduled cd and needs to be employed discretely or it could have a shared CD with other types of abilities, etc.
    Players should always be conscious of avoiding unnecessary damage. I hope that when fighting NPCs (Bosses, monsters, etc. the encounter punishes those who do not respect mechanics. Damage should be avoided at all cost (even for Tanks - They just mitigate it better). And in that Note .. with all the tank variants, I hope that we can see these individual traits reflected in the various role playstyles.
    I would love to see group compositions that would recommend 2,3,4 tank variants (I know some folks like things hardmode .. others are just more efficient - Only the encounter will define which is which :smile: .)
    I am down for all sorts of group compositions..

    Seeing how many Tank variants will be available, I do hope it breaks the notion of who is Main Tank/Off tank.. All Class playstyles will hopefully have their moment to shine based on the encounter. So hold on to your pants folks....

    I did have some questions:

    - Will class ability buffs or debuffs have shared CDs among the variant classes?
    Ex1. Cleric-Tank uses a Holy Tree ability to debuff an NPC, will a Cleric-Ranger override that type of debuff with the same magic type? Will debuffs have ranks? Class variants should then be very unique in a sense.
    I am just curious .. I would assume that it will all depend on that particular NPC/Player table (how many debuffs, what types can be applied and for how long, etc.(PVP - vs PVE + equations).. (Lots of numbers and variables to crunch).

    Ex2. Cleric-Tank uses a Holy Tree BIG Heal ability that creates a debuff on the tank, will the Cleric-Bard perform another Holy Tree BIG Heal to the Tank? I would assume there will be ability morphs that synergize well with other class role abilities (healing % increase/damage % increase ), but considering the opposite, should we expect debuff clashes (healing % decrease/damage % decrease)?
    Could there be a cap per Ability Type (if there is such a thing)? lol I mean diminished returns, or things of that nature?

    My apologize if I bored you. Hehe This is all done with much humility, curiosity and respect!

    Take care all!
  • DiuraDiura Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Really nice feedback on this thread!
    Afraid I'm not a tank player but had an idea that could be interesting...or not xD

    I usually play bard and I often have skills that pairs me with other players to share buffs~

    Could tanks have a proximity skill that "pairs" with other tank/s? Perhaps you could move in proximity to your main tank and activate the proximity skill to mitigate damage together as a method to support your fellow tank? Or even use this proximity skill to create shield walls to defend your party/raid group etc? I can imagine this in sieges too~
    Ofc in situations where there are needs for tanking different groups or even to focus on damage you can break the pair/deactivate the proximity skill to go off and do your thing etc?
    test.png?width=1440&height=113
  • I tend to agree with most that have stated above, I believe that the traditional Main/off-tank style of play is key in producing good results when it comes to both PVE and PVP. I lean towards more PVE personally, but with that being said, I think that the Tank role should be just as responsive and efficient in PVP as in PVE.

    You'll want to reward good tank players for knowing their rotations/reactions to certain events and playstyles of enemies as well. As a former tank main in many MMO's, I would love to see the role of Tank be important, and almost a need for it in many events as well.

    With this being said, I would like the tank to still produce decent damage on its own (nothing comparable to the DPS classes) in order to solo content that is otherwise soloable to the dps classes it may just take a little bit longer to complete. In my opinion, threat should be managed directly through the tanks abilities/aa's as well in order to keep a hold on aggro in hard situations. It should be a reactive management style, rather than just throwing 1 taunt on a dude and forgetting about it.

    just my opinions, Thanks for everything yall do.
  • ZazarielZazariel Member
    edited August 22
    So to resume the topic. The question was: Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?

    Lot of people (including me) just didn't answered the question even if they bring really good arguments on the role tank. So i'm resuming the answers of the OP question:

    - The tendency seems to like classic MMORPG, having a main and an off tank. Even if some legendary fight in previous mmo (like the four horsemen on wow) with 4 or 6 tank was a good memory, the question is what role gonna have the main tank and the off tank in Ash of Creation.

    - People are concerned about the role of an off-tank. If the Tank class tank less or off tank less than any other role, why player should invest in the class tank. What the off-tank will do when he's not required ?

    - Some tips gived is to put tank with group interactivity to mitgate damage and same for the off-tank. Shieldwall, zone to mitagate damage, intervention, etc.

    - A lot of reaction come from the fact that the question dev are asking put us in a difficult position to answer. What is tanking and off-tanking ? For lot of ppl, this mech is just a swapping boss mode to mitigate damage and adding interaction between tanks. Or tanking adds while the main tank the boss.

    - Finally, ppl tend to like the fact to need one main and off tank. Fight that require many tanks sounds chaotic and hard to manage. But in the other hand, thoses fights are more epics and the class Tank is named properly then. Otherwise why ppl would play the Tank class if they can only tank in pve with that ?
  • HandOfUnityHandOfUnity Member, Intrepid Pack
    It seems that in the ideal situation most people within our community would prefer a Tanking system where the style of play can be differentiated thanks to the multiple Tank / Second Class system in AOC therefore allowing for a more variable play style within the Tanking role e.g. Rogue Tanking, Mage Tanking with the correct spec.

    The idea of “Main Tank” and “Off Tank is mostly divided between the social notion that the main Tank is “superior” to the other when in reality in many games an “Off Tank” is just as required and essential to completing various content.

    When it comes to abilities players want to feel that a Tank is a class in its own right rather than a tough DPS, this would mean Class specific abilities to aid the Tanking role, Crowd Control, Possibly creating Walls that enemies have to physically go around and other such mechanics which would make the Tank feel unique.
    HoU_Option_1.png
  • One of the biggest issues with playing as a tank is that although it is often necessary to a party’s success, it is often not a fun role to play. Tanking needs to be and feel as fun and rewarding as healer and DPS.

    Having 1/8 classes fill a tank role means that making archetypes unique in the utility that they bring would help attract players to the role. It would also give the ability to protect and defend the team in ways other than being a meat shield or holding threat.

    PvE
    Threat is a simple way to give tanks a “job” within a fight. It builds the tank up to be a wall between the enemy and the team that the enemy cannot pass even if doing so to target the more vulnerable players makes logical sense. It also makes fights linear and repetitive. Fighting bosses that have varying levels of intelligence makes for more enjoyable and intense fights and give the boss more character and gameplay outside of smacking a tank and releasing the occasional AOE skill. This make the fight more engaging for all roles. It also allows for additional protective features outside holding taunt. Take the sentinel for example. This archetype could be a ranged protective tank that fights from afar while being able to put up a projectile barrier for his ranged party members. A spell shield could be a battle clad mage who focuses on providing damage reduction buffs to party members for the right damage type at the right time. Guardians absorb a portion of the damage taken by their melee party members. Knights focus on rushing into the fray dealing more damage and holding threat longer. Overall threat is not a bad mechanic, but the tank should not be able to hold threat for the entire fight. Having bosses with phases that specifically ignore the tank and target other players allows for the tank player to show their skill by using abilities like the above to continue to provide protection to their team outside of holding threat the entire fight.

    PvP
    Threat has no effect in PvP. Traditionally this leads tanks to jump into or push their way into the back line to disrupt the enemy formation and shrugging off the responsibility of a protector and instead turn into a crowd control bot that either gets focused down and killed or ignored as they don’t have the damage to threaten any backline enemies. If a tank is playing “correctly” and holding down the line then the battle degrades to a contest of which side has more healing and damage rather than have any strategy, teamwork, or skill play a major factor in the outcome.

    TLDR: Make tank fun to play by giving them protective skills and capabilities outside of holding threat.
  • I don't think we need multiple tanks running around, historically tanks are a hard to come by in MMOs due to the pressure placed on them. I would hate to exacerbate the problem by having fights that need more of them.

    I think most of the issue with tanking in other games is that it ends up being a watered down DPS rotation. Sometimes this is due to bad game design, sometimes its due to player feedback that tanking is too difficult. The problem comes in when their effort to simplify tanking makes it boring instead. I think its a balance between having a decently fun damage rotation with some nuance, having to manage aggro without making it a chore to do, and giving players the feeling that they are actively tanking.

    Nobody want to struggle to keep aggro if they are doing everything they are supposed to be doing, and nobody wants to play a watered down DPS that has a few defensive abilities.

    qagc30m00fu7.png
  • Having played a small handful of MMOs (WoW, ESO, Dragon Nest, Lost Ark, Blade and Soul, Tera, etc.) One of the best things for tanking really comes down to feeling you're making impactful decisions in your damage mitigation and setting up damage opportunities for your allies.
    I think WoW's Mythic Plus system does a pretty good job of letting tanks pull large amounts of mobs and there are natural challenges within that; but for the sake of tanking it feels good to risk dying and grouping things up for your allies to do big damage around their cooldowns.
    In almost every raid environment in MMOs I think tanking is really about positioning and personal damage mitigation and as long as tanks are able to have agency with those 2 things, it's great.
    Combos are another thing that could be implemented to make tanks choose between spending a global cooldown on a combo chain or a defensive.
  • Vaknar wrote: »
    Dev Discussion - Tank Participation
    Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?

    ...when we say 'tank' and 'off-tank' we are referring to the role of tank, and not the Archetype of the same name (Tank) in Ashes of Creation

    For me the easy answer is 'combat experiences with several tanks fighting'

    It's hard for me to imagine a traditional main and off tank basis when taking the 2nd part of this question into account. Since it is indicated that they do not consider the tank archetype to define who would be a main or off tank. This plus the fact that gear wont be archetype locked and make up 40%ish or 60% (i forget which) of effectiveness leads me to believe that tanking would not entirely rely on straight up damage mitigation from the tank archetype but could be a mix of archetypes being able to handle different enemies better-which to me would definitely work better with several tanks fighting than just a main and off-tank.

    on top of straight damage mitigation I would love to see fights that focus on evasion tanking, pet tanking, kiting, resistance/debuff/interruption based tanking where it is important for various archetypes to hold the attention of certain enemies that they are better at controlling or shutting down outside of just being able to 'take the hits better'.

    and whether we do get an array archetypes being able to tank in various ways or mostly basic dmg soaking tanks-I'd still prefer to shy away from heavy aggro swapping/tank swapping/main and off tanking shared targets in favor of a tank or multiple tanks just being able to handle their designated target(s) if played well. specially in non-raid party sized content

    and if it comes down to basic damage mitigation tanking I like the idea that a focused and well played primary tank archetype could mitigate damage without a 'main healer' in the party while also allowing more archetypes with tank as their secondary to mitigate damage with a main healer supporting them when it comes to the 16 or lower party size content.
  • Vaknar wrote: »
    Dev Discussion - Tank Participation
    Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?

    Yes? For single party dungeons I think you would want to keep the engagements within reason that a typical party would expect to take on if they only had a single dedicated tank. Bring back the necessity for teamwork and CC instead of mindlessly stacking mobs and AoE them down. For raids, it's better to have a number of tanks in mind when building the mechanics of the boss fights or engagements throughout the dungeon. You don't want tank players feeling left out or not contributing to the success of the raid if a certain boss in the raid doesn't need all three tanks doing something mechanic wise.

    I hope you strive to be innovative when it comes to tanking. Let a lot more classes be considered for the tank role instead of limiting that role to one or a few archetypes? Give most archetypes (or all if you dare!) the ability to generate threat and then let the player choose their skills and itemization in the game to tank. I know in most games you want the typical beefy class rocking the big shield, massive HP pool and stacked armor to be the one getting their face pummeled while the DPS and healers do their thing but I hope you consider designing most classes with the option to tank based on their choices in skill selection, skill ranks and their secondary class's augments to those abilities.
  • NricNric Member
    Vaknar wrote: »
    tank_participation.gif?h=250

    Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.

    Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!

    Dev Discussion - Tank Participation
    Would you prefer more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or would you prefer to see combat experiences with several tanks fighting?

    Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding Gathering & PvP!

    Hello! I wanted to provide some additional clarity to this post. In our question prompt, when we say 'tank' and 'off-tank' we are referring to the role of tank, and not the Archetype of the same name (Tank) in Ashes of Creation ^_^ Hope this helps!

    For me, as a PVP Tank player it would be great to be able to use "all" abilities either in PVP and PVE. Sometimes as a tank you would have skills that wont have an use in PVP (taunts for example).

    Make them relevant in PVP and do not force the class to be a PVE only.

    Consistent/continuous DPS and great CC but never bursts. Also would be nice to have self buffs that gives you high defensive stats for (IDK) 30 secs. Maybe a party buff would be nice too so everyone would like to have a tank in his party in PVP also.

    In general I like tanks that have (lets say...) 50% cc skills, 25% buff skills and 25% only DPS skills(dps would come from this 25%~ and auto attacking).



    Nric
  • ScarandorScarandor Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    Being a tank main for over 10 years in lotro and various other MMOs, there are many things I have enjoyed and others I have suffered through. Tanking has thr great potential to be one of most important roles in a raid. When you die, your fellow most likely do as well - as it should be.

    Starting with bad examples for tanking mechanics

    - Riders of Icarus: While having some kind of Threat multiplier on and a short forced aggro pull (like 1-2 secs), it was flawed throughout. RoI is grind-heavy and introduced a lot of new tier levels along with better equip. Every time (we are talking like every 2 weeks), when my DDs had their new weapon before me, I was useless and unable to hold aggro by any means. Equip alone butchered the whole threat mechanic.

    - Blade and Soul: not much to say. Tanking is useless, since damage is the only quality you need to play.

    - Most other (eastern) grind MMOs: you wield a shield and that was the most part of your quality - along with lower damage than all others (sometimes including the "healer").


    I would really like to see interesting and varying mechanics between subclasses, such as in the good examples:

    + Lord of the Rings Online: (might be biased obv) There are various classes you can tank in end content with. All of them function as a tank with similar-ish base aggro skills (1aoe and 1single target force aggro) and a 3:1 threat generation when in tank skill tree. From there you can go for guardian (smashing shields, bashing heads, generating threat on multiple targets, self-heal mechanics and stuff), captain (similar-ish to a classic paladin - buffing and healing allies, drawing threat on foes from allies to himself), Brawler (fairly new class, buffing allies, reduces threat generation on allies while enhancing threat generation on himself), Beorning (bolsters himself, debuffs foe, roars for aggro) or Warden (also bolstering himself, generating threat through bleeds, tapping health per foe nearby). Playing each of these classes comes with unique niches and strengths/weaknesses to fill in a raid and feel fairy different to play. In my opinion a very good and definately a keeper-concept for tank mains like me (gathering those playstyles to finda personal favourite or being flexible in need). Apart from all the good things, lotro decided to overload some dungeons with boss-damage to a point where it is impossible to stand your ground, but instead forces you to run in pathetic circles (I guess I do not have to play a light armor anymore to come into the "blessing" of kiting things, pls save me q.q).

    + Guildwars 2: Rarely have I enjoyed playing a tank in PvP more than in GW2! Playing a tank in PvP often feels like being a cute meatball for DDs to test their damage rotation on you until you eventually break without being able to seriously threaten the DD in a 1v1. In GW2, you can spec to be both tanky and really dangerous to approach. Approaching a tank in PvP should not be looked upon as hearthy snack, but as a real challenge to bite through that armour before he smashed your tiny head with a good old shield bash - at least for melee DDs.

    + WOW classic: I did not linger a very long time in Azeroth, but I came to like the tanking mechanic as a druid-bear-thingy. What I liked about that style was the balancing of aggro generation between the group and the tank, as well as the challenge to time your skills to actually hold the aggro of what is to be facing you. I did not dive deeper into the system tho.


    TDLR:
    * Tanking on different (sub-)classes is very welcome to make use of different mechanics and playstyles
    * Being a tank should feel accordingly. There is no use to it if you are getting swiped away like a ranger would be (specifically in pvp)
  • SoggyBandaidSoggyBandaid Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'm a Healer/Utility main in almost every multi player game I play, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

    I would prefer a non traditional style of tank role in AoC. However, I'm less interested in the "more traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles" versus "several tanks fighting" discussion as I am how the role of tank is fill the role in a pvx game. To clarify, quite a few posts are talking about how traditional tanks manage threat, balance or disrupt raid mechanics, and how having soft tanks diminishes the role for players and leads to less people playing tanks. However, I think the route of the problem is that traditional tank is just not a fun role to play for a lot of people. Managing threat is boring, and it severely limits you in pvp when actual players can ignore your threat mechanics. For me, if this is a pvx game tanks should have pvx mechanics, meaning any ability that works to tank in pve should be viable in pvp.

    A couple people mentioned viability in pvp, but @kryptikko was the only person I saw calling out mechanics, and they were very eloquent in presenting an argument for a nontraditional tank role. I agree and think tanks should have mechanics that transfer their ability to tank in pvp as well as pve. Two examples of how I could see this in play are giving tanks abilities to let them prevent damage to allies that would work in pvp as well as pve (shielding ally, stunning enemy, etc), or balancing a threat mechanic in such a way as players have reduced damage against targets with low threat relative highest threat (taunts would add threat, threat would dictate npc attack pattern, but would also add a damage debuff to nearby enemies for attacking other targets).

    Just my two cents, I'm sure everyone at IS already has some stellar ideas of their own. Keep up the great work!
  • SolrSolr Member
    My take is that off-tanks should defininently exist but if you have a main tank the other tanks should not just stand to the side, they should then be able to play a more supportive and active role for either the main tank or the rest of the raid in the form of dmg mitagtion/threat reductions etc.

    However my main issue is how threat will play a role, balancing this is really hard since you will always have under- and over geared players. A lot of people have already posed some great ideas for balancing this so I dont feel like I need to ad something to that.

    Taunts should not work like they do i WoW, where the tank instantly rushes to the top of the aggro table, it should just be a time limited forced action, that cannot be broken by other players taunts and should not generate any threat. This way, threat generation will be a very important task for tanks and give them not just a defensive role but also an aggressive one, making the class much more diverse since you will need offensive and supportive tanks.

    Loot from major bosses such as world bosses should also only be awared to the group with the player with the highest threat. Pls no partitipation awards. Make people chose what they can spend time on, the game is all about, time/risk vs reward, right? A level 20 player should not be able to join a raid for a lvl 50 boss as a solo player and get loot for that....
  • itwashearitwashear Member
    edited August 24
    I have played most MMO's in the past 23 years I have played all roles from tanks to healer's, DPS, and even just standing around mezing stuff back in EQ The most fun I had as a "tank" was in age of wushu so let me explain a bit about how that works knowing full well it wouldn't work in this game as is but I think some of the core concepts might be helpful.

    First there is no tank class how it works the whole group gets in a formation (spots light up on the ground and everyone stands on one to activate a group buff) one of the lights is the tanks spot who ever stands there is the tank of the group and gets a less dmg taken and aggro buff. The important take away here is the tank class isn't the tank its who ever the group wants to tank.

    Aggro is very easy to get as long you are landing attacks once in a while you don't super have to worry now if you don't attack you will lose aggro but its not a DPS race.

    Tanks group role is very simple... stay alive. now I'm sure this is the biggest part that cant be put into ashes there are no healers in age of wushu its up to tank to not only keep the dmg they take to minimum but also to find time to self heal.

    What makes it fun is you are not simply standing there to face tank attacks while the healer spams heals on you every .5 seconds you are not standing still spamming 1 2 3 and moving out of red every once in a while you are strafing left and right carful not to put the bosses face towards the party so they don't get hit by AOE, you are shielding yourself with dmg migration buffs on big windups and your keeping an eye on the room to make sure noting crazy is happing around you.

    Being a tank shouldn't be a DPS but harder to kill it be an active try to not to die and keeping the dmg away from the party.

    My thoughts more in line with the specific question in the context of how ashes itself will probably play every group should have one person ready to be the one taking aggro but if you have more then 2 tank friends that want to play at the same time they shouldn't stand there being a DPS more tanks should make the party as whole feel safer not lackluster so instead of a normal pull a 2ed tank will let the group pull 1.5x more mobs to AOE down more efficiently.
  • Currently playing Lost Ark and WoW TBC Classic (soon to move into Wrath) and I have played the tank role in both games, although Lost Ark doesn't really have a tank archetype, but a more tanky one in the form of the Gunlancer, which has a taunt to interrupt certain boss abilities and force it to turn attention back to you. Once taunted, there is a debuff cooldown timer on the target where a taunt won't work again. This would get around any ideas of multi-tank taunting to cheese the threat issue.

    In WoW, the threat meter has multipliers for all characters and as long as the tank has some form of high level snap threat, the dps can get to work immediately after the initial pull. This would be handled with some kind of shout or shield based mechanic (a ranged Shield Throw or Shield Bash or a charging shield ability to cover ground quickly).

    I also think healer aggro should be VERY low or eliminated altogether, since they are a squishy defenseless class that can easily be 1 shot by any boss.
  • Traditional MMORPG main and off-tank roles, or several tanks fighting?
    I would like to see more tanks fighting. My experience is that a tank drought in a game is very bad; it can harm the game in a very fundamental way. You don't want people to be gated from content by not having enough tanks. This gives players a form of-despair that makes you think the fundamentals are not adjusted for the principles of a mmo. But a lot of the tank roll can come down to how gear progression is set up and how it works in pvp.
    How the difficulty levels will be set by time and damage in raids will increase the difficulty and loot will play a major role in how the guilds will prioritize loot for tanks. If there are just a few that can be the main tank in the guild then this will discourage others from playing a tank. Stephan said at one point that gear could be as high as 40% of the players power. I would recommend that 20% is taken into taking and that some gear be rather common or easy to get. Then let the damage and cc abilities hold the rest.
    Now I am not sure how all systems will work. But please don't let us end up with a tank drought scenario.
  • Tanks should be the type that people don't want to get close to when battling. Reflecting small amounts of damage or absorb damage to release it back with more force. This should help with the damage of the tank. The tank should have the most advantage in open field or larger groups of player (friend or foe) tanks should get stronger depending on the amount of people and weaker toward 1 v1 kind of like a bard. A tank should stun only when being attacked so it has a way to escape combat. In my eyes the classes that can't 1 v 1 as well as the fighter, mage, or rogue should have ways to escape combat through abilities.
  • coochcooch Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think that in pvp tanks become rather obsolete because they don't do enough damage to have high impact and smart players typically just don't hit them. I think ideas like Zarya from Overwatch could be something to pull ideas from, where as she lives and plays well it makes her do more damage giving her opponent a reason to go after that her. obviously doesn't have to be like that for every tank but definitely a good idea that will make at least a tank character always be relevant in pvp.
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