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Weapon Master / Fighter feedback

Weapon_MasterWeapon_Master Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
With the basic weapon attacks released, and it looked absolutely spot on by the way!! I am a big fan of the fighter class in mmo's and dnd. When I heard that the weapon master class was used in the weapon attack demo I was thrilled. I am still thrilled like everybody here. This is my input as a fighter at heart on what I saw from the couple class abilities. These are just my opinions and feedback and may not represent how others feel.

The dash looks great, it's good for a fighter to have good footwork and maneuverability.
The magical looking hammer attack was okay, but I really like my fighters to steer clear of any magical looking type attacks, especially my weapon master, fighter fighter class. When you think fighter, particularly weapon master, usually you think of someone with great martial prowess and physical training, not magical skills aiding him unless it was from a team buff. I think you can achieve the same attack effect without the magical looking hammer. Perhaps a leap that crashes down and ripples the ground exploding at the same point. Or perhaps using your weapon or fist to punch or hit the ground twice as it ruptures at the point of impact previously shown. I know it could be a lot to animate for each weapon, so perhaps do it by weapon class, light medium heavy, or another idea.
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Comments

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    In ashes, every Primary archetype has a magical Active Skill siilar to the Fighter's Hammer Strike.
    Clerics have the Castigation whip.
    Tanks have Javelin
  • Weapon_MasterWeapon_Master Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    In ashes, every Primary archetype has a magical Active Skill siilar to the Fighter's Hammer Strike.
    Clerics have the Castigation whip.
    Tanks have Javelin

    That's my point I think fighters with magical attacks are anti thematic. Just because they do, doesn't mean they should. Atleast in my opinion.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    If a Fighter is a weapon master why wouldn't the fighter use magical weapons? I would not considered anyone a weapon master if they can't wield all weapons...
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  • Weapon_MasterWeapon_Master Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Neurath wrote: »
    If a Fighter is a weapon master why wouldn't the fighter use magical weapons? I would not considered anyone a weapon master if they can't wield all weapons...

    Wielding magical weapons is different than using spells to do magical attacks. For example the lvl 1 noob weapon wouldnt be magical yet they can do magical hammer attacks with it. And it just so happens that all the weapons in the game have the same magical hammer ability attached to it? It is a stretch

    This seems more appropriate for a battle mage type character or even the high sword
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I wouldn't take any spells show cased as standard or indeed as written. Its all placeholder at best. We don't have full classes right now - just shells of classes. Until we see the whole skill roster it is difficult to dissuade or dispel your concerns.

    I'm not sure why the level 1 weapon wouldn't be magical. I can agree that all weapons having the same skill effects is a piss poor way to implement the skills though. If we take the Padawan from Star Wars they can still use the force at 'level 1'. just not as well as a Jedi or Jedi Master. A level 1 lightsabre would still be a lightsabre.

    Getting back to the fighter, it could be the amalgamation of the fighter with the weapon which cultivates the magical attack. If the fighter can still perform the attack without any weapon held then the theory would be quashed. However, my own beliefs are that magical spells are still weapons.

    In theory, the fighter should be able to take magical spells from anywhere/anyone else and learn to use them. Such is the way of a Weapon Master.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Please be combat this stream, please be combat this stream -hopium -
  • UnderdelveUnderdelve Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Please be combat this stream, please be combat this stream -hopium -

    Ranged combat :)https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ranger_timeline

    *Takes Hopium canister from @Mag7spy and takes a big pull*
  • UnderdelveUnderdelve Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    @Weapon_Master as far as I know, no weapon skills have yet been released. I believe that only class abilities, along with basic weapon attacks were available in Alpha-1. It could be that the Weapon skills, contained in the weapon skill lines, may be muted, from a magical presentation and effects standpoint. But given that, currently, mana is the resource pool used to fuel abilities, we may not get away from magic-type effects on all abilities.

    I'm with you, clear distinction between weapon skills effects and class skill effects is warranted, and, I hope that the magic effects are toned down, as much as possible, so as to not obscure or confuse players about what is happening in encounters.
  • Weapon_MasterWeapon_Master Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    For me the whole archetype of fighter is the one class that stays away from magics and is fully committed to martial skills. It's one of the biggest appeals to me. A fighter with huge magical holy looking hammers looks more like a paladin than a fighter to me. It has the same spell effects as cleric spells. Which is why I made the post as a fighter lover I'd like to see it go a traditional fighter way instead of the magical fighter way. I figured i'd voice it early before they got to deep in the fighter design.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I've now watched the footage in question. I think the combat looked much better than past renditions. I'm not sold on the spinning whirlwind but then I prefer natural combat styles if I'm pushed.

    The yellow hammer looked placeholder in every way. It was swift, horrid looking and very hit and miss. That withstanding, I feel the weapon does need some sort of aoe ability move at close range.

    The yellow hammer is better than a thrown weapon or a grenade - weapon masters could use grenades, but, overall I had a good feeling for the current combat system as far as melee was concerned.
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  • I agree with the original poster. The art direction needs to make the archetypes distinct.
    A golden light effect makes me think more of a highlord than a weapon master.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Zazariel wrote: »
    I agree with the original poster. The art direction needs to make the archetypes distinct.
    A golden light effect makes me think more of a highlord than a weapon master.

    There was no archetype, there was just the weapon skills. You are complaining about the Two Handed Sword from the information I gleaned in my brief browsing - not the Fighter. I still can't quantity or qualify the reason why the Two Handed Sword has a Hammer Skill Effect though. It is out of place in every way.
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  • Neurath wrote: »
    There was no archetype, there was just the weapon skills. You are complaining about the Two Handed Sword from the information I gleaned in my brief browsing - not the Fighter. I still can't quantity or qualify the reason why the Two Handed Sword has a Hammer Skill Effect though. It is out of place in every way.

    Ok still my Bad then. But yeah if you told me that what we saw was the two handed skill with an hammer form it's a bit weird. Still arguing that animation and Artistic direction should be more precise, no need to do complicated thing.

  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Steven even said in the video the effects were placeholder. I only reiterated what the devs themselves stated. I mean, everything thats ever been shown has usually had the 'this is placeholder' tag added before hand. A lot of the feedback has been very positive because if you saw the previous renditions of combat those renditions were horrid. No one can make perfection in one go. Not even the Egyptians who created the great pyramid.
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  • Weapon_MasterWeapon_Master Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    combat looks great I agree, just trying to give my take before its to late. It's fine if it's a placeholder. I just wanted to give my feedback early if they cared for it they could save a lot of hours animating and designing a bunch of magical looking attacks on my beloved fighter if they decided to go this route early.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    For me the whole archetype of fighter is the one class that stays away from magics and is fully committed to martial skills. It's one of the biggest appeals to me. A fighter with huge magical holy looking hammers looks more like a paladin than a fighter to me. It has the same spell effects as cleric spells. Which is why I made the post as a fighter lover I'd like to see it go a traditional fighter way instead of the magical fighter way. I figured i'd voice it early before they got to deep in the fighter design.
    Well, when you make your own game, you can design your classes the way you like.
    In Ashes, Fighter has at least one magical attack.
  • Weapon_MasterWeapon_Master Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    For me the whole archetype of fighter is the one class that stays away from magics and is fully committed to martial skills. It's one of the biggest appeals to me. A fighter with huge magical holy looking hammers looks more like a paladin than a fighter to me. It has the same spell effects as cleric spells. Which is why I made the post as a fighter lover I'd like to see it go a traditional fighter way instead of the magical fighter way. I figured i'd voice it early before they got to deep in the fighter design.
    Well, when you make your own game, you can design your classes the way you like.
    In Ashes, Fighter has at least one magical attack.

    I heard go to the forum for feedback so here I am, got a problem with it go make your own forum and chat there xD
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It wasn't the fighter we saw. It was a toon with a two handed sword. Could've been a tank, could've been a mage, could've been a cleric. The only differentiator was 'Basic Attacks' and 'Weapon Attacks'. Ashes is not New World or Throne and Liberty, the weapon does not dictate the class.
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  • Weapon_MasterWeapon_Master Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Pretty sure they confirmed in the video early on it was the weapon master but its still really early to know whats coming very hyped!
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    They could say it was Mr Blobby but until we see class abilities its just a toon with a two handed sword.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I heard go to the forum for feedback so here I am, got a problem with it go make your own forum and chat there xD
    Yes. And...I gave you feedback.
    Some things will be tweaked.
    At this point, expect anything that is a fundamental change to the original design to add more than one year to development.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    It wasn't the fighter we saw. It was a toon with a two handed sword. Could've been a tank, could've been a mage, could've been a cleric. The only differentiator was 'Basic Attacks' and 'Weapon Attacks'. Ashes is not New World or Throne and Liberty, the weapon does not dictate the class.
    It was the Fighter kit.
    Did you listen to the video?
    "Hammer Strike" was a Fighter Active Skill.
    The Tank version of that Active Skill is Javelin.
    The Cleric version of that Active Skill is Castigation.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    So why does the fighter have back dashes? Why do they all have the same skills with different effects? Sounds like cut corners to me. If they would call it all basic attacks and weapon attacks and then use a fighter skill that still does not equal a Weapon Master.

    P.s. i didn't watch it all it was very repetitive.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • Weapon_MasterWeapon_Master Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I heard go to the forum for feedback so here I am, got a problem with it go make your own forum and chat there xD
    Yes. And...I gave you feedback.
    Some things will be tweaked.
    At this point, expect anything that is a fundamental change to the original design to add more than one year to development.

    I already gave feedback as to how they could easily apply the changes while keeping the ability. It would not add a year to development. It is very clear they are in early class design so that is why I am giving feedback now. I don't think one singular hammer attack is a fundamental year or more long change. Not sure why you are so obsessed with the javelin and whip and everything of classes im not speaking of. Regardless I saw a video of the javelin the other day and it didn't even look magical. Perhaps it was a old video? Not sure why you think everything has to be this one set way. It would be better feedback like the other guy had, where he said weapon masters should be masters of all kinds of weapons even magical ones like the big hammer. That made sense. Your feedback is, no everybody needs to have this one special attack and it has to be exactly like this! Why? Because it does and if its not it will add a year to dev.... If you say so.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Most likely that is a version of the Fighter Active Skill called Rush.
    One of the devs state in the video that we're seeing the Weapon Master kit. We don't know if they added any augments onto that Rush.
    Below is a description of the Fighter Primary Archetype:

    The Fighter is really a mobile physical DPS. So they're able to traverse the battlefield. They're able to close the gap quickly. They're able to deal damage from a physical perspective... The Fighter is in your face. You try to get away from me I'm going to close that gap. I'm going to deal this burst damage to you and it really doesn't matter if I'm behind you or if you're bleeding or if I've snared you per-se. I am there. I am in your face. I'm doing this damage.
    ---Steven

    "I didn't watch it all..."
    Says the person who complains about people not reading his posts.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I already gave feedback as to how they could easily apply the changes while keeping the ability. It would not add a year to development. It is very clear they are in early class design so that is why I am giving feedback now. I don't think one singular hammer attack is a fundamental year or more long change. Not sure why you are so obsessed with the javelin and whip and everything of classes im not speaking of. Regardless I saw a video of the javelin the other day and it didn't even look magical. Perhaps it was a old video? Not sure why you think everything has to be this one set way. It would be better feedback like the other guy had, where he said weapon masters should be masters of all kinds of weapons even magical ones like the big hammer. That made sense. Your feedback is, no everybody needs to have this one special attack and it has to be exactly like this! Why? Because it does and if its not it will add a year to dev.... If you say so.

    The problem you have is that Dygz would back a pink moon if Steven or the devs said the moon was pink.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    If the devs say that Ashes has a pink moon - I will support Ashes having a pink moon. True.
    Of course, color is not a fundamental change to design. Changing colors won't add significant time to a game development schedule.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The issue I have Dygz is we're trying to remedy the situation around the combat video. Now, with the limited viewing that I did, I took at face value the basic attacks and the weapon attacks. Which was backed by the initial stuff shown. Yet, Weapon_Master is stating that Weapon Master was shown. Then, you state that one fighter ability was shown which still does not equate to a Weapon Master. Now, I'm not exactly sure whether we were meant to be reviewing the basic attacks and weapon attacks which I did do and did not need to watch twenty repetitions of the same skills.

    On top of that, like the predator video, the devs often just take a toon and claim its a full class (Primary and Secondary Archetypes combined). Its easy to promote the holes and make a combat system look more advanced than it actually is. Until we get a class overview of the Fighter like the old Cleric, Tank and Mage reviews we did I will not accept that the Hammer was a Fighter skill. For a start the skill move actually spawned with the Two Handed Sword.

    My suspicions are that the 'Ranger' review in September will just be bow weapon skills like the Two Handed Weapon. One can state anything when one controls the medium. It just doesn't add up. I could accept these parameters if both you and Weapon_Master had both claimed it was a fighter skill but you're claiming its a fighter skill on a Weapon Master between you.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    LMAO
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Yeah, you can laugh. Its better than crying mate. I get accused a lot of going too deep, yet, I skipped through the video and it is literally about 6 skills at max being used. Unless each weapon has 5 skills or so and the hammer is a fighter skill, then that to me isn't even a show off weapon skills. Just a small selection in repetition. So, the sum of the spectacle isn't even really worth assessing. Everything is placeholder, everything is subject to change and everything was repetitive. Thus, until A2 or a more substantial video surfaces I wouldn't lose any sleep over a golden hammer which flashes in and out within a second or so.
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