Weapon Master / Fighter feedback

With the basic weapon attacks released, and it looked absolutely spot on by the way!! I am a big fan of the fighter class in mmo's and dnd. When I heard that the weapon master class was used in the weapon attack demo I was thrilled. I am still thrilled like everybody here. This is my input as a fighter at heart on what I saw from the couple class abilities. These are just my opinions and feedback and may not represent how others feel.

The dash looks great, it's good for a fighter to have good footwork and maneuverability.
The magical looking hammer attack was okay, but I really like my fighters to steer clear of any magical looking type attacks, especially my weapon master, fighter fighter class. When you think fighter, particularly weapon master, usually you think of someone with great martial prowess and physical training, not magical skills aiding him unless it was from a team buff. I think you can achieve the same attack effect without the magical looking hammer. Perhaps a leap that crashes down and ripples the ground exploding at the same point. Or perhaps using your weapon or fist to punch or hit the ground twice as it ruptures at the point of impact previously shown. I know it could be a lot to animate for each weapon, so perhaps do it by weapon class, light medium heavy, or another idea.

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Dygz

George_Black wrote: »

Here is what matters. If the ability selection of, lets say fighter, consists of more magic weapons appearing out of nowhere, fighter players will not play the class.
If the same dislike issue occurs on other classes, people will not play them.

So far, we know that Tank, Cleric and Fighter have a conjured weapon Active Skill:
Javelin, Castigation, "Hammer Strike". We can expect all of the Primary Archetypes to have one.
If you want to cry now about the possibility of each Primary Archetype having more... go ahead... it's a free world.

George_Black wrote: »

But your brain cant follow that. You are here to say "the sun rises from the east, the water boils at 100°, 2+2=4" and other facts that everybody knows.
In other words, you are just stating obvious things. When however you give us your personal desires and insights, without a fail, you make me shake my head or facepalm.

My brain is not s addled as yours. That is true.
What makes you facepalm certainly doesn't matter.

George_Black

Ye again, you just stated the obvious. Those conjured weapons. Need to go.

Dygz

George_Black wrote: »

"Cleric has a spear, fighter has a hammer"
Rly Dygz? Is that what we should accept for the ID of our classes? That there is a distinction since one has a golden spear and the other has a golden hammer.
Im not going to sit here at take that from you. Not even the Devs. When A2 drops there will be many discussions about weapon and class satisfaction.
Dont be there to derail the topics.
Go roleplay with your alts of various background stories.

Um... it's...
Tank has Javelin (a conjured spear), Cleric has Castgation (a conjured whip), Fighter has "Hammer Strike" (a conjured hammer). That's how the Ashes devs have chosen to apply those motifs.
I wouldn't call those "distinctions" but if you want to, it's no skin off my back.
Javelin, Castigation and "Hammer Strike" are Active Skills. They don't really count as Weapons.
The Weapons we can craft are not tied to class. Any class can use any Weapon.

George_Black

Is anyone else seeing this?

Scarbeus

From the Wiki: "Even pure melee players will use mana to manipulate The Essence for their extraordinary abilities"

Essence is the magic that flows through the world of Verra and everything in it. I understand why you don't want any magic in what you see as a purely physical class, but this is a different game. It makes sense in it's lore that all classes, regardless of of what you have chosen for them to at least have some minimal magical ability.

Solmyr

Scarbeus wrote: »

From the Wiki: "Even pure melee players will use mana to manipulate The Essence for their extraordinary abilities"

Essence is the magic that flows through the world of Verra and everything in it. I understand why you don't want any magic in what you see as a purely physical class, but this is a different game. It makes sense in it's lore that all classes, regardless of of what you have chosen for them to at least have some minimal magical ability.

Even with that lore, there's still ways to make certain classes feel more physical.

For example, a fighter using an AoE might use magic to enhance his strength and durability, allowing him to stomp hard enough to shatter the ground and send out visible shockwaves. That way the magic element is still there -- he's still channeling essence to do something superhuman, it's just presented in a more visceral way.

I think this gives the best of both worlds. It lets fighters, tanks, rangers, and all the other more grounded classes keep their distinct identity, while also not trampling all over what makes casters feel unique.

George_Black

Just as reality shouldnt be a bind when making a game, so the lore shouldnt be in the way. Especially in this mmo where NPC/quest gaming isnt prominent (eso/ff14).
Having the lore to strictly determine how class abilities should look is a mistake. I hope they listen to the players on this one when A2 drops and there are official dedicated class

As I said above in previous posts, as long as the classes dont interfeer with game systems and mechanics (pvp, economy, nodes) there is no reason to force the developers vision upon players.

If the hammer ends up being a BiS fighter ability it will hurt the class.

Dolyem

Having every class as high magic also takes away from classes meant to be high magic. Just saying.

Dygz

ChaIk wrote: »

Even with that lore, there's still ways to make certain classes feel more physical.

For example, a fighter using an AoE might use magic to enhance his strength and durability, allowing him to stomp hard enough to shatter the ground and send out visible shockwaves. That way the magic element is still there -- he's still channeling essence to do something superhuman, it's just presented in a more visceral way.

I think this gives the best of both worlds. It lets fighters, tanks, rangers, and all the other more grounded classes keep their distinct identity, while also not trampling all over what makes casters feel unique.

I don't know what you mean by "more physical".
We can expect the four Martial Archetypes to feel more Physical than the four Arcane Archetypes.
I don't know why a Weapon Master using magic to enhance Strength would be "more viceral" than a Weapon Master using an Active Skill to conjure a battle hammer.
Have you somehow determined that "Hammer Strike" does not or cannot deal Physical damage rather than Magical damage?

Dygz

George_Black wrote: »

If the hammer ends up being a BiS fighter ability it will hurt the class.

BiS is going to be determined by how the individual enhances the Active Skill with Passive Skills, augments, gear, enchantments and racial stats. As well as how the individual synergizes that Active Skill with others in the group.

Weapon_Master

George_Black wrote: »

Is anyone else seeing this?

the dude is literally a bot the point about the boiling temperature and 2+2 being 4 was spot on

Dolyem

Dygz wrote: »

ChaIk wrote: »

Even with that lore, there's still ways to make certain classes feel more physical.

For example, a fighter using an AoE might use magic to enhance his strength and durability, allowing him to stomp hard enough to shatter the ground and send out visible shockwaves. That way the magic element is still there -- he's still channeling essence to do something superhuman, it's just presented in a more visceral way.

I think this gives the best of both worlds. It lets fighters, tanks, rangers, and all the other more grounded classes keep their distinct identity, while also not trampling all over what makes casters feel unique.

I don't know what you mean by "more physical".
We can expect the four Martial Archetypes to feel more Physical than the four Arcane Archetypes.
I don't know why a Weapon Master using magic to enhance Strength would be "more viceral" than a Weapon Master using an Active Skill to conjure a battle hammer.
Have you somehow determined that "Hammer Strike" does not or cannot deal Physical damage rather than Magical damage?

It has more to do with the theme and aesthetics. I'd say a majority of players who play fighter don't care much for magic ability. So they want it to stay true to the class identity and use next to no magic in their skillset and rely almost exclusively on physical ability, martial prowess, and brute strength

Azherae

Dolyem wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

ChaIk wrote: »

Even with that lore, there's still ways to make certain classes feel more physical.

For example, a fighter using an AoE might use magic to enhance his strength and durability, allowing him to stomp hard enough to shatter the ground and send out visible shockwaves. That way the magic element is still there -- he's still channeling essence to do something superhuman, it's just presented in a more visceral way.

I think this gives the best of both worlds. It lets fighters, tanks, rangers, and all the other more grounded classes keep their distinct identity, while also not trampling all over what makes casters feel unique.

I don't know what you mean by "more physical".
We can expect the four Martial Archetypes to feel more Physical than the four Arcane Archetypes.
I don't know why a Weapon Master using magic to enhance Strength would be "more viceral" than a Weapon Master using an Active Skill to conjure a battle hammer.
Have you somehow determined that "Hammer Strike" does not or cannot deal Physical damage rather than Magical damage?

It has more to do with the theme and aesthetics. I'd say a majority of players who play fighter don't care much for magic ability. So they want it to stay true to the class identity and use next to no magic in their skillset and rely almost exclusively on physical ability, martial prowess, and brute strength

It's probably just not augmented anyway.

They have to choose the 'middle ground' most of the time, so that they have something that can be made to look more or less magical with mostly the same purpose/hitboxes.

There's not a lot that looks LESS magical than the Hammer but still manages that specific hitbox and no character movement.

If they make a Fighter/Rogue with that Hammer even when you add the Rogue augment as a generality, well...

Dygz

Dolyem wrote: »

It has more to do with the theme and aesthetics. I'd say a majority of players who play fighter don't care much for magic ability. So they want it to stay true to the class identity and use next to no magic in their skillset and rely almost exclusively on physical ability, martial prowess, and brute strength

Well, if they don't like that one Active Skill, they can choose not to use it.
Weapon Master conjuring a weapon is true to the identity.

Where does it state that the Fighter identity uses next to no magic.
And why does one magical ability not fit the concept of "next to no magic"?
Isn't 1 literally next to 0?

Dolyem

Dygz wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

It has more to do with the theme and aesthetics. I'd say a majority of players who play fighter don't care much for magic ability. So they want it to stay true to the class identity and use next to no magic in their skillset and rely almost exclusively on physical ability, martial prowess, and brute strength

Well, if they don't like that one Active Skill, they can choose not to use it.
Weapon Master conjuring a weapon is true to the identity.

Where does it state that the Fighter identity uses next to no magic.
And why does one magical ability not fit the concept of "next to no magic"?
Isn't 1 literally next to 0?

If that ability is useless then that'd make sense. But if that ability is key to gameplay then you have to use it to be viable.
It'd be just as simple to make a ground slam ability rather than a giant glowing hammer appearing out of thin air.
And most core fighter classes in MMO's and even tabletop games are exclusively non-magical. Not a rule, it's just what people expect.

Weapon_Master

Dygz wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

It has more to do with the theme and aesthetics. I'd say a majority of players who play fighter don't care much for magic ability. So they want it to stay true to the class identity and use next to no magic in their skillset and rely almost exclusively on physical ability, martial prowess, and brute strength

Well, if they don't like that one Active Skill, they can choose not to use it.
Weapon Master conjuring a weapon is true to the identity.

Where does it state that the Fighter identity uses next to no magic.
And why does one magical ability not fit the concept of "next to no magic"?
Isn't 1 literally next to 0?

Let's be clear, me and others here are simply giving feedback as to how we would like the fighter to play out.

Obviously we do not have a choice in the matter. One magical looking skill wouldnt be the end of the world if the rest was true to how we view the archetype as fighter players. Yes we can not use the ability and any other abilities that may end up looking magical. That is silly, it's simple, if the fighter doesnt play like how i'd imagine a fighter. I would probably play rogue. And if the rogue didnt have any hiding options or cheeky stuns or poisons playing roguelike you know what i'd do? Not play rogue and i'd go try summoner, and on and on.

You are free to disagree but you don't seem to have a vision of how a fighter should playout yourself, you just keep stating over and over again. 'This is not a normal fighter this is ashes fighter!! If you dont like it dont use it!!' Well we don't really like it, that is the whole reason we are here discussing it.

Songcaller

Have you seen the tank skill reveal video? It was mostly magic. I suspect the fighter is the exact same because the devs love high fantasy. Not just high fantasy, but, fanciful high fantasy like a spinning in the air fireball caster (Mage). Thus, if the fighter has one magical ability, its pretty safe to bet that the fighter will have more than one magical ability.

Its too bad the devs haven't released the fighter skills in a video because we must critique the fighter from a basic attack/weapon attack video which means the feedback on the hammer gets swept under the carpet.

Dolyem

Neurath wrote: »

Have you seen the tank skill reveal video? It was mostly magic. I suspect the fighter is the exact same because the devs love high fantasy. Not just high fantasy, but, fanciful high fantasy like a spinning in the air fireball caster (Mage). Thus, if the fighter has one magical ability, its pretty safe to bet that the fighter will have more than one magical ability.

Its too bad the devs haven't released the fighter skills in a video because we must critique the fighter from a basic attack/weapon attack video which means the feedback on the hammer gets swept under the carpet.

Yea, honestly I am hoping they move the high magic effects to the appropriate secondary archetype ability augments. As I said before, making everything high magic really takes away from the classes meant to be that way.

Dygz

Dolyem wrote: »

If that ability is useless then that'd make sense. But if that ability is key to gameplay then you have to use it to be viable.
It'd be just as simple to make a ground slam ability rather than a giant glowing hammer appearing out of thin air.
And most core fighter classes in MMO's and even tabletop games are exclusively non-magical. Not a rule, it's just what people expect.

Useless ability makes no sense.
Whether an individual considers an ability to be key will be up to the individual player.
I would expect a Weapon Master to conjure a weapon. Weapon Master can slam the ground with a crafted Great Sword or slam the ground with a conjured hammer.

Dolyem wrote: »

And most core fighter classes in MMO's and even tabletop games are exclusively non-magical. Not a rule, it's just what people expect.

Not any tabletop RPG I'm aware of.
Some people may expect Martial Archetypes to have 0 magic due to previous games they've played.
Ashes is a high magic setting - all of the Primary Archetypes appear to be able to conjure a weapon.
If an individual doesn't want to use that Active Skill, they can choose not to.
Ashes has some designs that are different from other RPGs - like how classes are defined.

Dygz

Weapon_Master wrote: »

Obviously we do not have a choice in the matter. One magical looking skill wouldnt be the end of the world if the rest was true to how we view the archetype as fighter players. Yes we can not use the ability and any other abilities that may end up looking magical. That is silly, it's simple, if the fighter doesnt play like how i'd imagine a fighter. I would probably play rogue. And if the rogue didnt have any hiding options or cheeky stuns or poisons playing roguelike you know what i'd do? Not play rogue and i'd go try summoner, and on and on.

You do not have a choice in what matter?
You can choose not to use "Hammer Strike".
If "Hammer Strike" is a deal-breaker for you, choose a different Primary Archetype.
Expect all 4 Martial Archetypes to a conjure a weapon similar to Javelin, Castigation and "Hammer Strike".

Weapon_Master wrote: »

You are free to disagree but you don't seem to have a vision of how a fighter should playout yourself, you just keep stating over and over again. 'This is not a normal fighter this is ashes fighter!! If you dont like it dont use it!!' Well we don't really like it, that is the whole reason we are here discussing it.

No. I did not state, "This is not a normal Fighter."
I've played RPGs where Fighters wield magic. I don't know that I've played an RPG where it's impossible for a Fighter to use magic. I have played games where Fighter doesn't conjure a weapon, but a Fighter conjuring a weapon is not antithetical to the Fighter concept/identity. Conjuring a weapon especially fits the role of a Weapon Master in a high magic setting.

You say magic does not fit the role of Fighter. I disagree. And I've asked you why you think magic doesn't fit the role. That's how discussions work.

It's fine for us to agree to disagree - if that's where you think we're at.
You don't have to like everything in the game.

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