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PVP in Ashes Opt in System to the planned Flagging

AsraielAsraiel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Well we all know from the wiki that ashes will fully support open world pvp and we also know that the majority of all players are pve players in the mmo-rpg genres.

The current planned flagging system is at least something however i don't believe that it will lead to many players getting red flagged. Normal human behavior is upon being attacked you instinctively protect and fight back. This doesn't only apply to Real Life it also goes into Virtual World behavior. So the chance that someone gets killed without firstly trying to fight back or cc its attackers are slim to none existing and the system instantly flags the attacked player as combatant the moment he starts defending and fighting back or cc. And so a kill won't mark the attacker as a red or corrupt player.

What could be an additional system to optimize the planned one be?
what comes next problably will be hated by all Pvp lovers caues its an additional system that limits their fun even if it isn’t fun for PvE players to get fragged all day long.

Adding in a system that accumulates over time a flag or flag buff depending on their ingame activities. All player only doing pve content and does not participate in sieges or raids his flag as non combatant getting empowered over time (Time meaning here Real life days without pvp in any sort). this does affect his flag, should he be attacked by another player so his flag will stay non combatant for 1 seconds after the attacked did fight back or cc/heal, if he continues to attack after those 1 second (DOTs, HOTs or other skills that last longer does count only the initial attack) he will be flagged combatant. so to not participate in pvp only gives a timegab before being flagged. that 1 second get expanded by +1sec for every Real Life 24h without any pvp or pvp content participated. the max is reached after 5 days without pvp giveing a 5 sec buffer.

in addition could also opt in a system that gives a protection to lootable items in that process so that for every 24h -10% of the possible loot can be looted by other players that are looting the dead body. in both cases if the killed was still non combatant or combatant. this protection also stops at maximum 5 days which would result in a -50% lootability of the killed attacked player.

However if someone gets an attacked that has this buff and he gets flagged combatant this counts him as pvp and so as soon the status Combatant flags back to non combatant or he getting killed, the time before he gets again this additional protection is after 24 hours have passed.

If a player however is flagged corrupt (red) he cant get that buff, only non combatant can accumulate that buff.

This would not alter the planned flagging system but opts in a little extra safety and protection to those that will primarily play the game in pve and protects partly from the primarily instinctive biological reaction to protect against attacks. and not getting to feel the hard punishment if getting killed and so getting the feel of depression.


I personally am a pvx player doing both pvp and pve however I leave those not interested in pvp alone and stealing (griefing) did become a thing in games even though I believe it's bad to let it happen no matter the world it happens in.

Have a nice day
Asraiel
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    "So the chance that someone gets killed without firstly trying to fight back or cc its attackers are slim to none existing"

    I disagree with this.

    Since that's the basis of the perception, I also then disagree with the idea as a whole.

    I also disagree with it because the system already literally does this. If you fight back, you already have a '-50% lootability'. The thing it is 'adding' is a lot of complexity around this which allows one to 'continue fighting without getting flagged. Which I think is a problem in healer-fighter duos, for example.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    Before i give my opinion i want to ask something since i didnt manage to find an answer (maybe i didnt look well on the wiki or w/e).
    The first attack will do 100% of the damage?
    If the anwer is YES then the "PvE" player (or simply one that is not going around serching for ppl to kill) is at a massive disadvantage and something about this have to be done, is not really fair that not only the pve player is getting ganked but start the fight with -X% of his health to fight back only because was sneak attacked.
    All of this IF the answer to my question above is affermative.
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I dont see the point. What can anyone do in 5 seconds? Why would someone who doesn't fight in pvp want a 5 second window to pvp? It makes the whole thing trivial and just shows that people don't want to pvp unless there is a bonus to said pvp. I don't see why we should have a bonus installed by the devs. If you want to pvp, pvp, if you don't want to pvp live with the consequences of a PvX game.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    LMAO. Fighting back in an MMORPG will have nothing to do with instincts.
    And, giving your attacker Corruption is the quickest way to end an unwanted activity, so... there will be plenty of people staying green instead of flagging as a Combatant.

    People who enjoy random PvP combat will flag as a Combatant.
    People who don't enjoy random PvP combat often won't flag as a Combatant.
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    KardinKardin Member
    edited August 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    LMAO. Fighting back in an MMORPG will have nothing to do with instincts.
    And, giving your attacker Corruption is the quickest way to end an unwanted activity, so... there will be plenty of people staying green instead of flagging as a Combatant.

    People who enjoy random PvP combat will flag as a Combatant.
    People who don't enjoy random PvP combat often won't flag as a Combatant.

    I think the real problem is the incentive to flag a a Combatant, many PvE players dont like to lose resource they spent time farming so even if the will die they will try to flag as combatant just to drop less, probably if this is removed then all the system will be more balanced towards "If you want to do pvp, do pvp, if you don't want to pvp dont do it"

    Edit: with removed i mean that the Combatant will drop the same amount as a Green player.
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The problem we have is the devs have added a stupid system of drops being related to combat stance. Its a stupid notion because it doesn't incentivise PvP, it also does not decentivise PvP. Everyone should just drop the same amount of resources. This would then stop players seeking greens for bigger payloads and it also stops greens from quitting because they are forced to turn purple to cut down on resource loss.
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    Neurath wrote: »
    The problem we have is the devs have added a stupid system of drops being related to combat stance. Its a stupid notion because it doesn't incentivise PvP, it also does not decentivise PvP. Everyone should just drop the same amount of resources. This would then stop players seeking greens for bigger payloads and it also stops greens from quitting because they are forced to turn purple to cut down on resource loss.

    I completely agree with you on this
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Non-Combatants have normal death penalties when killed by a PvP attack. The same amount as if killed by a mob.
    If you don't fight back and your attacker doesn't kill you because they don't want to suffer 4x the normal death penalties, you lose 0 resources.
    And, giving your attacker Corruption not only ends the unwanted PvP combat as quickly as possible, but also deters future PKs.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Kardin wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    The problem we have is the devs have added a stupid system of drops being related to combat stance. Its a stupid notion because it doesn't incentivise PvP, it also does not decentivise PvP. Everyone should just drop the same amount of resources. This would then stop players seeking greens for bigger payloads and it also stops greens from quitting because they are forced to turn purple to cut down on resource loss.

    I completely agree with you on this

    I believe I also do, even though I won't necessarily call it 'stupid', because it might be early. It might be 'a definite plan', and I don't know what the intention is in the other sense.

    If it is to promote PvP to players who don't normally, then I feel it's more important to solve the problem you mentioned @Kardin, making so people don't just 'start fights with disadvantage' in EVERY situation of this kind (maybe give Rogues something, but I feel like even Rogues probably should have to be more skilled with their backstabs or whatever, and could be balanced around that initial damage)

    If it is to promote 'interaction', 'a feeling of uncertainty', and 'risk vs reward' only, with no specific 'intention to increase PvP', then I personally think it doesn't need to be solved, any tweaking there would have to be focused on the Corruption system.

    But basically @Asraiel, I think they would have to tell us which thing it is they actually care about before we could give any serious suggestions or even feedback on how they could change it so that we feel it is better.

    I still don't agree that people fight back though, I can't even get people to fight back 'properly' in 1v1 PvP games that they choose to play a lot. Maybe at first they will, but most people who don't think they will win, will probably lose that habit pretty fast even if they start with it.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    Non-Combatants have normal death penalties when killed by a PvP attack. The same amount as if killed by a mob.
    If you don't fight back and your attacker doesn't kill you because they don't want to suffer 4x the normal death penalties, you lose 0 resources.
    And, giving your attacker Corruption not only ends the unwanted PvP combat as quickly as possible, but also deters future PKs.

    This does not quell the issues. You would still lose 0 resources if you don't die in any situation - doesn't matter what stance.

    Given that steven used to say a single kill on a green would not be too harsh, it does not deter player kills in future. The corruption is in place to stop massed murders taking place. Not to stop pvp. If you think that turning people red will stop pvp i don't know what to you. It hasn't stopped these situations in any game.

    My stance was not to protect the corrupted. My stance was to highlight the flaw that the people least likely to pvp will be the focus of a lot of pvp. Its like stealing candy from a baby.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I don't even duel with others - and there's no chance of losing stuff in duels.
    I rarely am in the mood for random PP combat. It's at the very bottom of my interests in an MMORPG.
    I enjoy defending towns... and, sometimes, other, similar objectives... like Caravans.
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    AsraielAsraiel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 2022
    well shure i mentioned a lot in the head post but as mentioned it would only apply to those that do only pve for more than 24h in real time. up to 120 h or 5 days in real time adding additional protection to those.

    all pvx players that do like arena or raid, siege, caravans or other types of pvp (except duels) will not have that buff

    it also could be signed with a icon next to the hp bar or obove the head to signal if someone has it or not.

    the reason behind:
    is that besides those players that doesnt acct diffrently even when they getting suprised all of the sudden still manage to stay cool (and i belive several of such players exist), it also gives a far greater number of players that acct non rational in these cases but often realise very soon whats happend. The idea does use the knowlegde of sciens that also made its way into driving law to keep a 2 sec distance to other cars as reaction time. ingame you dont have to push the clutch with your feet and the next keys to act are very close. so the more you stick to beeing pve player the more vorgivness you recive on such occations however in order to not go to op its limited to 1-5 sec of time given to correct your reaction if however the rare case should be occure that you manage to kill your attacker within these 5 sec you will not only loose the buff you also be flagged as combatant.
    the drop loss reduction is so that those who wanna play the game in pve doesnt get punished for doing that. since attackers dont see hp in real numbres they cant tell if a skill will kill his oponent or not.

    at its current system if the attacked fights back, the attacker not only has the upperhand on the fight he also has the official agreement to kill its oponent without getting coruption. so the system atm punishes those that want to play pve and rewards those that do pvp.

    i am for ashes to have this postion that every one can kill every one every where like in the real world the punishment comes after the killing. but to force it on the peoples feels like someone trys to add a neverending purge to the game. i dont want it to be a pve game not at all, but one that doesnt punish those that doesnt want to kill others.
    the mayor problem is that if you fight back even if its only a cc or a heal of a friend close by you or your friend instandly the flaged combatant even if the may be purley pve players

    to provent abuse of the system specialy in regard to heal or other support could have a certain time where a repeated action would lead to loosing the buff.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2022
    At the moment, the system rewards people who choose to flag as Combatant with half the normal death penalties. The system is neutral towards Non-Combatants. The system punishes people who kill Non-Combatants with 4x the death penalties.

    Just because a Non-Combatant chooses not to fight back does not mean they will be PKed after PvP combat is initiated.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Neurath wrote: »
    Given that steven used to say a single kill on a green would not be too harsh, it does not deter player kills in future. The corruption is in place to stop massed murders taking place. Not to stop pvp. If you think that turning people red will stop pvp i don't know what to you. It hasn't stopped these situations in any game.

    My stance was not to protect the corrupted. My stance was to highlight the flaw that the people least likely to pvp will be the focus of a lot of pvp. Its like stealing candy from a baby.
    All of that is irrelevant until we test it in Alpha 2.
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    AsraielAsraiel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    4x the death penalties.
    but that penalty only be feeled if someone with it dies. as long he stays alive the penalty doesnt do anything
    shure if to high stat of skills be weekend but for that to get the penalty of one needs to kill mobs only if getting corrupt it does more to the attacker

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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    They have to die at some point.
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The game is a PvX game and PvP brings around changes. When the devs state (or steven states) the game will not be for everyone, I'm not sure why everyone tries to amalgamate the systems to appease everyone. At face value the game is not designed for PvE only players at all - even if PvE only players outnumber the rest. At the current disposition I could play Throne and Liberty, then Ashes then end up in the League of Legends MMO, or just skip Throne and Liberty or Ashes completely.

    There is no detraction to die in pvp in normal games. The corruption system and loot drops from players make the PvP even more certain in Ashes. Some will state that Roleplay PvP is preferred - well every ganker and griefer will have pride and place and will be in competition in videos and on streams seeing who can kill the most before they are copped. Roleplayers often play murderers and highwayman - well ashes gives these players a lovely tag and a red colour to announce the playstyles.

    The devs can state there are no rewards for going corrupted but going corrupted is the reward. I merely stated that everyone should drop the same amount of resources because then less people would be singled out as targets. I could stand and watch a gatherer gather from scores of nodes and then simply attack them and get a big chunk of the resources just for 30 to 60 seconds of PvP. I could then disappear and work the corruption off before returning to town.

    The above scenario is invited and entirely possible. One doesn't even need to be a gatherer, one can simply exist as a pure pvper in ashes. When all the gear is crafted, one doesn't even need to be raider per say, one can just assist the caravans and raid the gathering zones.
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    AsraielAsraiel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    shure but when and where could mean that they win the non combatant only can loose. shure it matters more if you inventory is stuffed. if your empty you just kissing the ground stand up and do what you want but if you have stuff in inventory and you loose it (in alpha 1 also money was looteble) it could be a humiliation loss maybe several hours of farming lost do 1 death. while the attacker that did go out specaly to kill goes empty only the the gear and potions hee needs.
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yeah, I understand your position. I'm just stating that from a PvP perspective if the PvEers have an additional icon next to their names to denote they do not pvp, well the pvpers will be able to cherry pick these toons. The best bet is to be low key. Not be singled out for not doing pvp or being a pvp player.
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    AsraielAsraiel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    well im absolutly not a gainst pvp i mean my favorit game befor it turned pay2win in eu was aion a fraction based mmo where all upper level maps were full pvp.

    i can handle it and if i take in consoideration that 10000 players per server are spread of 480 km2 that leaves 21 per km2 if all are online but my guess is that in primetime maybe around 6k players 12.5 per km2 and in the night (0-4 am) maybe only 1-2k of players 1-4 per km2 will be online. and primarly will be conzentraited around metropoles so there should be enouth space to peacefully do pve without risking to get pked.

    but the system as it is today in the wiki does force to pvp if attacked. and that should not be the case. the player should not fear a grater loss if not fighting back. if fighting back he increases its chance of keeping its stuff and maybe get some extra loot. that alsone should be reward enouth. and
    i for example did break once a PSP in half after playing only 20 mins tekken due to haveing accumulated so much adrenalin. and squeeky persons should have some reation time sadly im not in my 20ties anymore. i would even find it better if it would be a 2-3 sec timer before an attacked person gets combatant no matter what style he plays so that the system is simplefyed or even after the 2nd attack/skill used on the attacker and also that non- combatant also have the lootreduction on them so that engadging into combat only bringt the possebillity of survival and not loosing stuff, which should be motivation enouth.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Depends on what is meant by "lose".
    I don't enjoy random PvP combat. I don't necessarily mind losing a portion of resources. I would mind losing items. So, for Ashes, normal death penalties if I'm PKed is OK. Especially if it punishes my PKer with 4x death penalties. If Corruption deters PKing as Lineage II players expect, it's a win/win situation: PvP combat ended quickly, either because I die or because my attacker doesn't want Corruption.

    If I care about dropping my resources, I can flag as a Combatant and only suffer half the death penalties, but...
    That is more of a loss because I've had to participate in an activity I really didn't want to participate in. And my attacker wins, even if I kill them, because they got me to participate in an activity I really didn't want to participate in.
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    AsraielAsraiel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    well in Alpha 1 you lost 50% of gathereble ressurces (crafted goods were protected even if only a midstep in crafting) but also money was ldroped that you carried with you

    while ressources alone aint that much of a thing money shure is
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Your fears are only prevalent in a Green on Green Scenario Asraiel, it won't matter when you fight a corrupted player as you can't turn purple against a red. The only time your requested change would apply would be a green on green fight. There is two negative points in that situation - first, there is the loss of health upon the instigators attack, secondly there is a delay to enter combat stance for the receiver. In both situations, only skill or heals will balance the scales.

    If a player really wants you dead, a 2 to 3 second delay entering combatant stance will do nothing. It won't give you a shield from attacks for 2 to 3 seconds, it will only delay your damage towards the attacker for another 2 to 3 seconds. It makes the two points above even worse. I understand you think your reaction times are slower due to you being older, however, you will gain speed in ashes the same as when you were younger - through practice and repetition. There should be no buffers in PvP at all. You will have 30 seconds or 60 seconds to decide whether to fight back or not. There should be no one shot kills.

    The best approach would be to group up before you gather, or before you venture into the unknown. Its true you could still be attacked in a group but the group can respond and protect members easier than a 2 to 3 second delay ever will.
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    Convoluted system idea. From what I gathered, OP is suggesting to make exclusively PVE players buffed over players who choose to PVP. Nah man, everyone is a PVX player in this game whether they want to be or not. Level playing field all around. Test the current system, on paper its already strict enough for pvp.
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    AsraielAsraiel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 2022
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Convoluted system idea. From what I gathered, OP is suggesting to make exclusively PVE players buffed over players who choose to PVP. Nah man, everyone is a PVX player in this game whether they want to be or not. Level playing field all around. Test the current system, on paper its already strict enough for pvp.

    pvp is fun when all participants want it. everthing else cant be called pvp
    its not buffing the poor pve players. its rather not punish them who wanna be pve player

    game will be open to pvp but there not as many mmo-rpg pvp player than those that want pvp belive. and filling a server with 10000 player that only wanna do pvp who does grind and craft their gear besideds filling the 10000 slots. if it has 1-2k players that focus more pvp over pve that would be very high number and nice to have but dont force the other 8k that may be more into pve content into pvp. i wish that ashes will become a game that even after 20 years didnt loose its touch and is interesting to play. pvp focused mmo-rpg hadve that they didnt last that well or that long as the past has shown.
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    Asraiel wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Convoluted system idea. From what I gathered, OP is suggesting to make exclusively PVE players buffed over players who choose to PVP. Nah man, everyone is a PVX player in this game whether they want to be or not. Level playing field all around. Test the current system, on paper its already strict enough for pvp.

    pvp is fun when all participants want it. everthing else cant be called pvp
    its not buffing the poor pve players. its rather not punish them who wanna be pve player

    How are they being punished? Also it has been explained that this game is PVX, which requires both PVE and PVP. You have to participate in both to progress in the game. If that doesn't sound appealing, then the games design is not ideal for your playstyle.
    GJjUGHx.gif
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    AsraielAsraiel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 2022
    Dolyem wrote: »
    How are they being punished? Also it has been explained that this game is PVX, which requires both PVE and PVP. You have to participate in both to progress in the game.

    befor a player gets attacked he is flagged as non combatant if he fights back he becomes combatant and will if he dies and get lootet he may only loose 50% of gahereble as well as money he carrys atm. if he stays non combatant he doesnt get that protection however the killer get flagged as corrupt.

    there is a wiki if your interested in the matter as it is planed for ashes
    Dolyem wrote: »
    If that doesn't sound appealing, then the games design is not ideal for your playstyle.

    i myself are a pvx player but all the other games in the mmo-rpg genres i played were mostly pvx games and in every single one the majority of the players were focused on pve rather than pvp. pvp was more refered to raids and sieges or arena evendo most of the map was pvx it rarely happend. shure it had like 100 peopled who didnt care that would jump on everyone if the see a chance of killing them, same as it gives those duds joining in a ts server only to play loud noises to anoy peoples. even do i may not can avoid those peoples it isnt needed to create a new place for them to forfill their pleshure. asylums alredy exists.
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    DolyemDolyem Member
    edited August 2022
    Asraiel wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    How are they being punished? Also it has been explained that this game is PVX, which requires both PVE and PVP. You have to participate in both to progress in the game. If that doesn't sound appealing, then the games design is not ideal for your playstyle.

    befor a player gets attacked he is flagged as non combatant if he fights back he becomes combatant and will if he dies and get lootet he may only loose 50% of gahereble as well as money he carrys atm. if he stays non combatant he doesnt get that protection however the killer get flagged as corrupt.

    I believe you don't lose money on death by a player. At least that's what it said in the corrupted wiki.

    And yes, those features tie into the whole risk vs reward design. You can risk fighting back to win and keep all of your materials or lose and halve the loss of your materials. Or you can choose not to fight back, losing more materials but possibly punishing your attacker even more, or they can successfully get rid of their corruption, that's risk vs reward on their part. If you stay green you benefit by limiting how many times an individual can gank you.

    None of that is a punishment. You are expected to deal with pvp, as it is the games design, just because you don't want that doesn't make it a punishment, it simply means the game does not match your own playstyle.
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    AsraielAsraiel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dolyem wrote: »
    And yes, those features tie into the whole risk vs reward design.
    there will be matereial rich zones and zones with less gatherebles but saver, less mobs or easyer mobs compairded to zones where you problably need a groupe to gather stuff that is allredy risk and reward, due to may choose the rich zone the chance of beeing attacked by a player also increases the risk.

    shure you have to expect it. and nope i primarly make posts not for my benefit, i do it for the game benefit and those that love these games as well but aint in the forum active or may starting with the game on release. we all here in the forum can be called hardcore players due to care even befor the lunch. but hadcores will not fill up the server. if only hardcores would play the game it would be dead right from the start. a big junk of the playerbase of every mmo is more casualy with maybe investing 1-2h a day and maybe 6-12 on the weekend.

    i dont care much if i loose 1 or 2 hours of grinding before i go off i got even more grinded than that tiny amount but not everyone has this luxus to have so much free time. that doesnt mean their bad players of should not play the game itself. i am greatfull for every soul that plays and keeps the game alive but that also means careing for mor than only one groupe of players.

    pvp sadly differs extream depending on the geografical area of the world the player life in in some parts pvp is super fun and the community does acct nice with pvp and non pvp players, in my zone they are a pain some other reagions maybe even worse or better than here. cant say that didnt play around the world only korea, japan servers, eu and na servers. the culture of the players does show in the gamebehavior.

    so giving those that love mmo-rpg that care and keep a world like ashes lively but do not be much into pvp may need some care to not risk faceing a empty server after 5 years when the next mmo rpg lunches. careing for those that chose ashes for the long term and not only for a quicky.

    thats the reason behind my topics in general it may only effect me by lets guess 5% the rest is purely for those that doesnt have the time or doesnt yet know of this game beeing developed that may fill the lands of verra and bring it to life.
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The trend in games is not positive at the moment. All games have lost 90 to 95% of players in less than a year in recent years - even Elden Ring and Minecraft. Thus, Ashes has an uphill battle already. We can't change the corruption system substantially because there are too many factions that all want different changes - therefore, no changes can occur because all other changes would have to be side-lined or implemented too and that means a total overhaul of the corruption system.

    The idea to put in a buffer is the same argument some people used to have of making Streamers immune. It simply is not fair for anyone except those who directly benefit. Thus, it won't or can't be implemented. I still believe the death penalties should be reviewed but then PvE players would be even less inclined to fight back.
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