PVP in Ashes Opt in System to the planned Flagging

Well we all know from the wiki that ashes will fully support open world pvp and we also know that the majority of all players are pve players in the mmo-rpg genres.

The current planned flagging system is at least something however i don't believe that it will lead to many players getting red flagged. Normal human behavior is upon being attacked you instinctively protect and fight back. This doesn't only apply to Real Life it also goes into Virtual World behavior. So the chance that someone gets killed without firstly trying to fight back or cc its attackers are slim to none existing and the system instantly flags the attacked player as combatant the moment he starts defending and fighting back or cc. And so a kill won't mark the attacker as a red or corrupt player.

What could be an additional system to optimize the planned one be?
what comes next problably will be hated by all Pvp lovers caues its an additional system that limits their fun even if it isn’t fun for PvE players to get fragged all day long.

Adding in a system that accumulates over time a flag or flag buff depending on their ingame activities. All player only doing pve content and does not participate in sieges or raids his flag as non combatant getting empowered over time (Time meaning here Real life days without pvp in any sort). this does affect his flag, should he be attacked by another player so his flag will stay non combatant for 1 seconds after the attacked did fight back or cc/heal, if he continues to attack after those 1 second (DOTs, HOTs or other skills that last longer does count only the initial attack) he will be flagged combatant. so to not participate in pvp only gives a timegab before being flagged. that 1 second get expanded by +1sec for every Real Life 24h without any pvp or pvp content participated. the max is reached after 5 days without pvp giveing a 5 sec buffer.

in addition could also opt in a system that gives a protection to lootable items in that process so that for every 24h -10% of the possible loot can be looted by other players that are looting the dead body. in both cases if the killed was still non combatant or combatant. this protection also stops at maximum 5 days which would result in a -50% lootability of the killed attacked player.

However if someone gets an attacked that has this buff and he gets flagged combatant this counts him as pvp and so as soon the status Combatant flags back to non combatant or he getting killed, the time before he gets again this additional protection is after 24 hours have passed.

If a player however is flagged corrupt (red) he cant get that buff, only non combatant can accumulate that buff.

This would not alter the planned flagging system but opts in a little extra safety and protection to those that will primarily play the game in pve and protects partly from the primarily instinctive biological reaction to protect against attacks. and not getting to feel the hard punishment if getting killed and so getting the feel of depression.

I personally am a pvx player doing both pvp and pve however I leave those not interested in pvp alone and stealing (griefing) did become a thing in games even though I believe it's bad to let it happen no matter the world it happens in.

Have a nice day
Asraiel

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Comments

Azherae

"So the chance that someone gets killed without firstly trying to fight back or cc its attackers are slim to none existing"

I disagree with this.

Since that's the basis of the perception, I also then disagree with the idea as a whole.

I also disagree with it because the system already literally does this. If you fight back, you already have a '-50% lootability'. The thing it is 'adding' is a lot of complexity around this which allows one to 'continue fighting without getting flagged. Which I think is a problem in healer-fighter duos, for example.

Kardin

Before i give my opinion i want to ask something since i didnt manage to find an answer (maybe i didnt look well on the wiki or w/e).
The first attack will do 100% of the damage?
If the anwer is YES then the "PvE" player (or simply one that is not going around serching for ppl to kill) is at a massive disadvantage and something about this have to be done, is not really fair that not only the pve player is getting ganked but start the fight with -X% of his health to fight back only because was sneak attacked.
All of this IF the answer to my question above is affermative.

Songcaller

I dont see the point. What can anyone do in 5 seconds? Why would someone who doesn't fight in pvp want a 5 second window to pvp? It makes the whole thing trivial and just shows that people don't want to pvp unless there is a bonus to said pvp. I don't see why we should have a bonus installed by the devs. If you want to pvp, pvp, if you don't want to pvp live with the consequences of a PvX game.

Dygz

LMAO. Fighting back in an MMORPG will have nothing to do with instincts.
And, giving your attacker Corruption is the quickest way to end an unwanted activity, so... there will be plenty of people staying green instead of flagging as a Combatant.

People who enjoy random PvP combat will flag as a Combatant.
People who don't enjoy random PvP combat often won't flag as a Combatant.

Kardin

Dygz wrote: »

LMAO. Fighting back in an MMORPG will have nothing to do with instincts.
And, giving your attacker Corruption is the quickest way to end an unwanted activity, so... there will be plenty of people staying green instead of flagging as a Combatant.

People who enjoy random PvP combat will flag as a Combatant.
People who don't enjoy random PvP combat often won't flag as a Combatant.

I think the real problem is the incentive to flag a a Combatant, many PvE players dont like to lose resource they spent time farming so even if the will die they will try to flag as combatant just to drop less, probably if this is removed then all the system will be more balanced towards "If you want to do pvp, do pvp, if you don't want to pvp dont do it"

Edit: with removed i mean that the Combatant will drop the same amount as a Green player.

Songcaller

The problem we have is the devs have added a stupid system of drops being related to combat stance. Its a stupid notion because it doesn't incentivise PvP, it also does not decentivise PvP. Everyone should just drop the same amount of resources. This would then stop players seeking greens for bigger payloads and it also stops greens from quitting because they are forced to turn purple to cut down on resource loss.

Kardin

Neurath wrote: »

The problem we have is the devs have added a stupid system of drops being related to combat stance. Its a stupid notion because it doesn't incentivise PvP, it also does not decentivise PvP. Everyone should just drop the same amount of resources. This would then stop players seeking greens for bigger payloads and it also stops greens from quitting because they are forced to turn purple to cut down on resource loss.

I completely agree with you on this

Dygz

Non-Combatants have normal death penalties when killed by a PvP attack. The same amount as if killed by a mob.
If you don't fight back and your attacker doesn't kill you because they don't want to suffer 4x the normal death penalties, you lose 0 resources.
And, giving your attacker Corruption not only ends the unwanted PvP combat as quickly as possible, but also deters future PKs.

Azherae

Kardin wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

The problem we have is the devs have added a stupid system of drops being related to combat stance. Its a stupid notion because it doesn't incentivise PvP, it also does not decentivise PvP. Everyone should just drop the same amount of resources. This would then stop players seeking greens for bigger payloads and it also stops greens from quitting because they are forced to turn purple to cut down on resource loss.

I completely agree with you on this

I believe I also do, even though I won't necessarily call it 'stupid', because it might be early. It might be 'a definite plan', and I don't know what the intention is in the other sense.

If it is to promote PvP to players who don't normally, then I feel it's more important to solve the problem you mentioned @Kardin, making so people don't just 'start fights with disadvantage' in EVERY situation of this kind (maybe give Rogues something, but I feel like even Rogues probably should have to be more skilled with their backstabs or whatever, and could be balanced around that initial damage)

If it is to promote 'interaction', 'a feeling of uncertainty', and 'risk vs reward' only, with no specific 'intention to increase PvP', then I personally think it doesn't need to be solved, any tweaking there would have to be focused on the Corruption system.

But basically @Asraiel, I think they would have to tell us which thing it is they actually care about before we could give any serious suggestions or even feedback on how they could change it so that we feel it is better.

I still don't agree that people fight back though, I can't even get people to fight back 'properly' in 1v1 PvP games that they choose to play a lot. Maybe at first they will, but most people who don't think they will win, will probably lose that habit pretty fast even if they start with it.

Songcaller

Dygz wrote: »

Non-Combatants have normal death penalties when killed by a PvP attack. The same amount as if killed by a mob.
If you don't fight back and your attacker doesn't kill you because they don't want to suffer 4x the normal death penalties, you lose 0 resources.
And, giving your attacker Corruption not only ends the unwanted PvP combat as quickly as possible, but also deters future PKs.

This does not quell the issues. You would still lose 0 resources if you don't die in any situation - doesn't matter what stance.

Given that steven used to say a single kill on a green would not be too harsh, it does not deter player kills in future. The corruption is in place to stop massed murders taking place. Not to stop pvp. If you think that turning people red will stop pvp i don't know what to you. It hasn't stopped these situations in any game.

My stance was not to protect the corrupted. My stance was to highlight the flaw that the people least likely to pvp will be the focus of a lot of pvp. Its like stealing candy from a baby.

Dygz

I don't even duel with others - and there's no chance of losing stuff in duels.
I rarely am in the mood for random PP combat. It's at the very bottom of my interests in an MMORPG.
I enjoy defending towns... and, sometimes, other, similar objectives... like Caravans.

Asraiel

well shure i mentioned a lot in the head post but as mentioned it would only apply to those that do only pve for more than 24h in real time. up to 120 h or 5 days in real time adding additional protection to those.

all pvx players that do like arena or raid, siege, caravans or other types of pvp (except duels) will not have that buff

it also could be signed with a icon next to the hp bar or obove the head to signal if someone has it or not.

the reason behind:
is that besides those players that doesnt acct diffrently even when they getting suprised all of the sudden still manage to stay cool (and i belive several of such players exist), it also gives a far greater number of players that acct non rational in these cases but often realise very soon whats happend. The idea does use the knowlegde of sciens that also made its way into driving law to keep a 2 sec distance to other cars as reaction time. ingame you dont have to push the clutch with your feet and the next keys to act are very close. so the more you stick to beeing pve player the more vorgivness you recive on such occations however in order to not go to op its limited to 1-5 sec of time given to correct your reaction if however the rare case should be occure that you manage to kill your attacker within these 5 sec you will not only loose the buff you also be flagged as combatant.
the drop loss reduction is so that those who wanna play the game in pve doesnt get punished for doing that. since attackers dont see hp in real numbres they cant tell if a skill will kill his oponent or not.

at its current system if the attacked fights back, the attacker not only has the upperhand on the fight he also has the official agreement to kill its oponent without getting coruption. so the system atm punishes those that want to play pve and rewards those that do pvp.

i am for ashes to have this postion that every one can kill every one every where like in the real world the punishment comes after the killing. but to force it on the peoples feels like someone trys to add a neverending purge to the game. i dont want it to be a pve game not at all, but one that doesnt punish those that doesnt want to kill others.
the mayor problem is that if you fight back even if its only a cc or a heal of a friend close by you or your friend instandly the flaged combatant even if the may be purley pve players

to provent abuse of the system specialy in regard to heal or other support could have a certain time where a repeated action would lead to loosing the buff.

Dygz

At the moment, the system rewards people who choose to flag as Combatant with half the normal death penalties. The system is neutral towards Non-Combatants. The system punishes people who kill Non-Combatants with 4x the death penalties.

Just because a Non-Combatant chooses not to fight back does not mean they will be PKed after PvP combat is initiated.

Dygz

Neurath wrote: »

Given that steven used to say a single kill on a green would not be too harsh, it does not deter player kills in future. The corruption is in place to stop massed murders taking place. Not to stop pvp. If you think that turning people red will stop pvp i don't know what to you. It hasn't stopped these situations in any game.

My stance was not to protect the corrupted. My stance was to highlight the flaw that the people least likely to pvp will be the focus of a lot of pvp. Its like stealing candy from a baby.

All of that is irrelevant until we test it in Alpha 2.

Asraiel

Dygz wrote: »

4x the death penalties.

but that penalty only be feeled if someone with it dies. as long he stays alive the penalty doesnt do anything
shure if to high stat of skills be weekend but for that to get the penalty of one needs to kill mobs only if getting corrupt it does more to the attacker

Dygz

They have to die at some point.

Songcaller

The game is a PvX game and PvP brings around changes. When the devs state (or steven states) the game will not be for everyone, I'm not sure why everyone tries to amalgamate the systems to appease everyone. At face value the game is not designed for PvE only players at all - even if PvE only players outnumber the rest. At the current disposition I could play Throne and Liberty, then Ashes then end up in the League of Legends MMO, or just skip Throne and Liberty or Ashes completely.

There is no detraction to die in pvp in normal games. The corruption system and loot drops from players make the PvP even more certain in Ashes. Some will state that Roleplay PvP is preferred - well every ganker and griefer will have pride and place and will be in competition in videos and on streams seeing who can kill the most before they are copped. Roleplayers often play murderers and highwayman - well ashes gives these players a lovely tag and a red colour to announce the playstyles.

The devs can state there are no rewards for going corrupted but going corrupted is the reward. I merely stated that everyone should drop the same amount of resources because then less people would be singled out as targets. I could stand and watch a gatherer gather from scores of nodes and then simply attack them and get a big chunk of the resources just for 30 to 60 seconds of PvP. I could then disappear and work the corruption off before returning to town.

The above scenario is invited and entirely possible. One doesn't even need to be a gatherer, one can simply exist as a pure pvper in ashes. When all the gear is crafted, one doesn't even need to be raider per say, one can just assist the caravans and raid the gathering zones.

Asraiel

shure but when and where could mean that they win the non combatant only can loose. shure it matters more if you inventory is stuffed. if your empty you just kissing the ground stand up and do what you want but if you have stuff in inventory and you loose it (in alpha 1 also money was looteble) it could be a humiliation loss maybe several hours of farming lost do 1 death. while the attacker that did go out specaly to kill goes empty only the the gear and potions hee needs.

Songcaller

Yeah, I understand your position. I'm just stating that from a PvP perspective if the PvEers have an additional icon next to their names to denote they do not pvp, well the pvpers will be able to cherry pick these toons. The best bet is to be low key. Not be singled out for not doing pvp or being a pvp player.

Asraiel

well im absolutly not a gainst pvp i mean my favorit game befor it turned pay2win in eu was aion a fraction based mmo where all upper level maps were full pvp.

i can handle it and if i take in consoideration that 10000 players per server are spread of 480 km2 that leaves 21 per km2 if all are online but my guess is that in primetime maybe around 6k players 12.5 per km2 and in the night (0-4 am) maybe only 1-2k of players 1-4 per km2 will be online. and primarly will be conzentraited around metropoles so there should be enouth space to peacefully do pve without risking to get pked.

but the system as it is today in the wiki does force to pvp if attacked. and that should not be the case. the player should not fear a grater loss if not fighting back. if fighting back he increases its chance of keeping its stuff and maybe get some extra loot. that alsone should be reward enouth. and
i for example did break once a PSP in half after playing only 20 mins tekken due to haveing accumulated so much adrenalin. and squeeky persons should have some reation time sadly im not in my 20ties anymore. i would even find it better if it would be a 2-3 sec timer before an attacked person gets combatant no matter what style he plays so that the system is simplefyed or even after the 2nd attack/skill used on the attacker and also that non- combatant also have the lootreduction on them so that engadging into combat only bringt the possebillity of survival and not loosing stuff, which should be motivation enouth.

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