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Why are you afraid of Ashes of Creation?

MybroViajeroMybroViajero Member
edited August 2022 in General Discussion
"Theres no greater danger than playing it safe"

Yesterday discussing with a group of friends about the latest AoC development update .One of them argued that AoC was trying too hard , that it was not healthy for its development , that it should lower its expectations and not try to improve its development but keep a proper pace , in short not to risk so much and work in its safe zone like many other MMORPGS .

This surprised me because it is the same discourse that many people have against AoC and especially against the improvement of the MMORPG genre , such as:

Will not work
Too ambitious
Can't make it
They're just dreams
It's impossible
No one will play it
Developed to fail
Getting overcomplicated
It's a scam
It can't get any better
Better not to try
Don't take risks
Work in the safe zone

Why are you afraid of the risk of trying to improve something?

Some say "just want a good MMORPG that has just enough to have fun" but isn't that what has been sold to us over the last few years?

Ashes of Creation does not want to reinvent the MMORPG wheel, nor does it pretend to be the "savior of the MMORPGS" but to try to improve in its own way the things that in the last years of MMORGPS have been forgotten and that make an MMORPG an enjoyable MMORPG.
In the same way other development studios that are trying to improve the genre in their own way should be afraid to take risks and only develop in their safe zone?

It is time to realize that if we want better changes for a genre that for a long time has been forgotten, we need people, development studios and leaders who want to take risks to exceed their own expectations and create better stuff.
It is useless to expect something "normal and playable" if this does not help the genre to improve because we will continue to live in the era where conformism dominates the genre and the community.

Ashes of Creation with this latest update continues to demonstrate that it wants to improve itself, wants to improve the genre but above all is not afraid to take risks and that is something that can be considered a double-edged sword but it is also something that is needed for the genre to start to improve.
Its developers, its leaders, and the Intrepid Studios team is growing with that mentality, not to be dominated by conformism but to risk things that they believe can be better, that will make AoC a MMORPG that they and their community will be proud of, it's a risk? yes, but the prize is worth it.

My friend in the end did not want to understand why it is necessary to take risks to try to improve some things, in the end he will continue to play his MMORPG as in the last 14 years.

I ask you, do you want someone to take the risk for the genre to improve with the option to succeed or fail?
or do you want someone to keep doing the same thing for many years with no chance of improvement or failure?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5D8jhlXLnw
EDym4eg.png

Comments

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    tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    Teddy Roosevelt, Chicago, April 10, 1899
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    It is an argument that plagues every aspect of human life. Many of us accept average as the expectation.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2022
    What risks are you talking about and... when should we expect the game to release?
    Scope creep "improvements" typically lead to vaporware.
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    bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Most people fear anything different and will often ride a failing ship(game) right into the ocean rather then seek new grounds.
    Several years ago a friend of mine was still playing an MMO even though his guild had all but left the game. He had to play at odd times to find a raid team and play with Russians even though he doesn't Russian.
    As he was complaining to me I pointed out his false sense of loyalty to a company that stopped caring about it's customers.
    Your thread is interesting to me the most as we have seen a lot of threads come and go over the last several years covering exactly what you have said. The game will fail if they do or don't do something thing or another.
    All of us are here looking for something different and I am with you on this.
    If your here looking for something new and different why keep trying to make just like everything else?
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 2022
    I don't think there are any risks that Ashes is taking so far.

    I haven't even seen the game reach the standard of the games I choose to play now.

    I expect it to, don't get me wrong, and as they move forward I'm seeing more and more signs of positive things, but trying to combine all the things they say into one thing that actually works is going to take a lot more than what we've seen thus far.

    So it's not weird for people to figure 'well it must be hard to do right since no one does it'. If anything I'd say the big risk they're taking is making something that a lot of people say they want to play, think they want to play, that then ends up being so niche that it can't support its own population.

    But system/gameplay risks? I haven't seen any of those yet.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2022
    Afraid the game is too easy.

    Too easy to get to high level.
    Too easy to obtain gear.
    Too easy to play every part of the game.
    No reason to obtain wealth

    No real benefit to pvp
    Pve time consuming as mobs too spread out and/or too sparse
    Gathering too sparse
    Mega guild domination, making competition lame

    Large areas of nothing
    No real reason to move across the map as sameness.

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    edited August 2022
    Why I'm Afraid? I'm afraid i will have no social life once this game releases :wink:
    m6jque7ofxxf.gif
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    DummoDummo Member
    edited August 2022
    akabear wrote: »
    Mega guild domination, making competition lame

    Agree.
    Dark Knight Dummo

    d681818dab4ff18eaec03b0dffa7a634.gif
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    Until the August Stream, I was afraid of PvP. I'm still pretty sure that I will be bad at it, and I was afraid I would not be able to avoid it, but somehow the announcement of Open Sea PvP has turned that upside down, and now I am eager to embrace it. Part of the reason is that my co-worker had a College sponsored e-Sports Pirate Team in Archeage, and now they are talking about putting the Band back together. So I'd be part of a Team.

    Second, I am afraid that the Alpha 2 Player Population, having paid at least $250 for the privilege, and informed about and committed to the design principles of Ashes of Creation, will be vastly different from the Launch Population, who only commit to a month's fee, and won't know as much about the game. It could be that the players behave so differently that what worked well in Alpha 2 fails horribly upon Launch. Worst case, a toxic gankfest with a stagnant economy that drives off the intended player base.

    Lastly, a few minor concerns. That my new cheap gaming laptop won't be enough. That as a dabbler, I won't be able to get an apartment. That I will be even worse at PvP than I think.

    But when all is said and done, I am very optimistic for the future of Ashes of Creation.
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    renadedanterenadedante Member, Intrepid Pack
    I'm not surprised that there are a lot of people scared of AoC. It's a game that promises to do a bunch of things and to some, that may make it sound like it's destined to fail. I believe that there have been too many games that talk larger than they can follow up with. Because of this, people tend to flock whether than lead.

    I am extremely optimistic and hopeful for Ashes. I believe in Steven and his want to make the MMO genre thrive again. I fully back and will continue to, for the entire duration of this game.
    [NA] Pandemonium| PVE focused | RP PVX | Tulnar | Divine Node
    Come check us out!
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    JudethJudeth Member
    edited August 2022
    Balanz wrote: »
    Second, I am afraid that the Alpha 2 Player Population, having paid at least $250 for the privilege, and informed about and committed to the design principles of Ashes of Creation, will be vastly different from the Launch Population, who only commit to a month's fee, and won't know as much about the game. It could be that the players behave so differently that what worked well in Alpha 2 fails horribly upon Launch. Worst case, a toxic gankfest with a stagnant economy that drives off the intended player base.

    I will be participating in alpha 2, and I can assure you that I will feel no need to waste my time ganking players, because I will be out leveling and gathering, and assisting my guild in node development ect. I encourage everyone interested in playing Ashes to join a guild, I expect being part of a guild will make your time easier because your caravans will have protection and you will have people to go on raids with.

    Edit: Also alpha 2 will not be under NDA, so you do not need to worry about knowing less than alpha 2 players because there will be info on the wiki and content available to watch.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    At least, become a citizen.
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    BalanzBalanz Member
    edited August 2022
    Judeth wrote: »
    I will be participating in alpha 2, and I can assure you that I will feel no need to waste my time ganking players, because I will be out leveling and gathering, and assisting my guild in node development ect.

    No. I am saying that Alpha 2 players will be very different from Launch players, and will act differently.
    The Node System, Economy, and Community might all be fabulous in Alpha 2, but at Launch, an entirely different player population may act very differently, with very different outcomes, possible quite worse.

    Not every player will join a Guild, and not every Guild will make for a working community.
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    My fear is an incredibly vocal minority of potential players, think they know what they want, demand the game conform to their ideas, and kill the game in doing so. It has happened many times in the gaming space, particularly in the MMORPG genre.
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    Judeth wrote: »
    Also alpha 2 will not be under NDA, so you do not need to worry about knowing less than alpha 2 players because there will be info on the wiki and content available to watch.
    And yet although there's loads of information out about the game already, how many people post on the forums having never read the Wiki? They likely saw one video and then dived in to ask questions easily available if they had done the research.
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    MybroViajeroMybroViajero Member
    edited August 2022
    Azherae wrote: »
    I don't think there are any risks that Ashes is taking so far.

    I haven't even seen the game reach the standard of the games I choose to play now.

    I expect it to, don't get me wrong, and as they move forward I'm seeing more and more signs of positive things, but trying to combine all the things they say into one thing that actually works is going to take a lot more than what we've seen thus far.

    So it's not weird for people to figure 'well it must be hard to do right since no one does it'. If anything I'd say the big risk they're taking is making something that a lot of people say they want to play, think they want to play, that then ends up being so niche that it can't support its own population.

    But system/gameplay risks? I haven't seen any of those yet.

    So, considering the increase of the map to give freedom for a free oceanic PvP content is not taking a risk?
    Creating development tools (as shown in the July update) to improve their own development is also not ?
    Using feedback from your community to improve some aspects of the MMORPG as has been shown several times in the creation/editing of some characters orr other things is not taking risks?
    Take a good amount of time to create a secure development base, have more open development than normal which can be a double-edged sword, have a hiring rate of 1.4% to ensure good developer elements.

    I'm not saying that Intrepid takes too big risks because obviously they can't risk too much but Intrepid does take some risks and that from my point of view is encouraging because it gives them the tools to understand how they can improve.
    I am not saying that they can not make mistakes, in fact that is contemplated when growing and improving, mistakes are part of growing but even that can be a trigger for improvement.

    In short, Intrepid is not only doing what is necessary to develop AoC, but they are striving to improve their development.

    Understanding one's own weaknesses and strengths in order to make decisions are characteristics of people who really want to improve and not just do the same as others.

    EDym4eg.png
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    Why I'm Afraid? I'm afraid i will have no social life once this game releases :wink:

    My proud, domineering and superior bro Empyrean that is something we are all afraid of.
    That and one server only from Tulnars ....................................................
    EDym4eg.png
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    No need to overcomplicate things because as with most things in life, especially MMORPGs, you should always hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

    I only have one fear and it has nothing to do with Ashes, but with any online PvP game that I play: will zergs be able to ruin the game for smaller groups?

    From WoW Classic to Rust, big groups have the potential to ruin the experience for other players. You either try to fight them, join them or give up. Big groups are usually made up of a few chads who carry the noobs who are usually meat shield, but which still make a difference because of their sheer numbers.

    I have nothing against huge groups in particular, I've played in a few, each to their own. But if a game doesn't find ways to discourage zergs and/or to encourage smaller groups, which can be a hard thing to achieve, I don't see it not becoming a problem in many servers, even in a game with a huge map without fast travel such as Ashes.
    🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
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    HinotoriHinotori Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I'm scared of witnessing a tulnar mating ritual.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    So, considering the increase of the map to give freedom for a free oceanic PvP content is not taking a risk?
    How would it be? That's not even exactly the reason why it was done? I don't understand this at all. Steven's explanation made it sound like they were solving a problem, and adding more almost-empty space with no terrain is hardly a risk even for development timeline.

    Creating development tools (as shown in the July update) to improve their own development is also not ?
    Don't understand this either. Are you talking about the time it takes to develop tools? 90% of development is 'building tools to do other tasks easier'. We have whole departments whose entire job is to build tools.

    Using feedback from your community to improve some aspects of the MMORPG as has been shown several times in the creation/editing of some characters orr other things is not taking risks?
    Isn't taking feedback from your community on art literally the least risky thing you could do? Wouldn't it be a big risk to go 'we have heard you, community, but have decided that our opinions on this mostly cosmetic thing are too important to make any changes based on your input'.

    Take a good amount of time to create a secure development base, have more open development than normal which can be a double-edged sword, have a hiring rate of 1.4% to ensure good developer elements.
    Again, this is Best Practices, not 'Risk'? Open development is practically a requirement for an MMO on a studio that was as small as Intrepid, and now that the studio is bigger, we don't actually get open development anyway, by any reasonable definitions of that (at least not that I, as a developer, understand).


    In short, Intrepid is not only doing what is necessary to develop AoC, but they are striving to improve their development.
    Yes, the thing that all good developers do, the thing that they fight for because without it, things don't work well at all and their product suffers. Steven literally says this himself in the last LiveStream, about 'knowing what it is like when the company expands 'poorly' and the culture/cohesion is lost.

    I really do want to understand what you're talking about here, I can only assume that you mean that the risk being taken is that they won't hit a deadline or make enough money in initial sales, but that doesn't apply to a pure subscription model game.

    I thought you were talking about something relative to design decisions, though, so that's why I answered that way, which is why I mentioned the system/gameplay risks.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    I think there is a big chance of not finding the perfect balance for the systems. While they will try to please everyone, they'll end up pleasing only a small number of people

    1. PVP - If you could loose too much for being corrupted, nobody will do any PK. Sounds good, right? No.
    People will still PK, when it's 100% sure they are going to win, and have a small chance of actually dying. For example big guilds bullying smaller groups/guilds and steamrolling over people. When the deed is done, just bank your expensive items, and die to loose the corruption.
    If the risk is too high, smaller groups won't engage in PVP at all, and if you ask me, the most enjoyable fights are with small-mid size groups, and not zergs.

    The FFA PVP on the sea is an awesome experience, if you are a ranged character. Good luck jumping over to moving ships with a warrior or rogue. You should be able to have the same fun on land as well.

    Equalized PVP should be a thing, just like in Guildwars 2, so not only the players with the best gear would enjoy instanced PVP.

    2. Oldschool or casual friendly?
    You can't have both, and creating a good mix of the 2 is hard.
    In Archeage, Lineage and other older Asian MMOs, the only way you could only truly enjoy the endgame, if you had the best gear.
    The gap between the best in slot gear, and the tier before that was too big (to encourage people to spend money). Because of this only people who spent money, bought gold, used bots, or teenagers playing 8+ hours a day could fully enjoy the game.
    All of these games failed because the majority of players couldn't enjoy the content, even with average gear score.

    Let's be honest, most of the people who have a hard-on for this game are like 25++ years old.
    Majority of people have jobs, girlfriends, hobbies, and can only play 2-5 hours a day. If you want to have a successful MMO, you have to make it enjoyable for the masses.

    For example, in GW2 you can enjoy PVP, even with exotic set and good skill. You cannot do that in the Asian MMOs used as a template for Ashes.

    3. Public dungeons.
    How will they prevent a group camping in a dungeon, spawnkilling bosses, and not allowing people to enjoy it?
    In ESO every time I went in a public dungeon, I had to sit there and wait for hours to get a kill. High lvl people will farm smaller lvl bosses, not allowing other people to enjoy the dungeon, and not willing to be in a party.
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