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Comments
Drop items on death.
NPC enemies steal your gear to wear or bring to other NPCs to wear.
Easy.
Guesstimate the numbers based on reality. Game world is already super small scale so slow gathering and processing is not a big deal at all.
There's still plenty room for power in individual chars. A large pack that could fit a person may hold 100 KG of material due to the material it's made out of. A Fighter char may be able to carry 100KG for 10 minutes before suffering to an extreme extent; this is plenty to deliver 100KG of material with 10% Iron in it to a Refiner that is located 2 minutes away.
That's 10KG of iron. This does not quite make a suit of armor in real life but I think it covers chest piece, boots, and gauntlets or something.
Prospecting and Mining and Prospecting may take 5 minutes in which case this is all a rapid process. Maybe 10 minutes would be good? Make encumberance a big deal and Mules be no better than a strong Fighter and it's all fine.
Caravans could have different quality; both material and build quality. Armored unarmored.
If game world was expanded to 3x its current size, Stone moving a big deal as Sieges were frequent and devestating, death impactful including gear drop and degradation, world hostility pretty high, then I think the game would be in a good spot.
How about: There are Earth elementals consuming metal to improve their living stone flesh; this being a kind of flesh and not useful when smelted. Thus big deposits are well protected (and raid tier), and small small deposits are littered throughout the world.
I guess it would become "Living Iron" when melted down from their corpse. It is hyper-reactive to stimuli and not useful.
Melting down the corpse would cause Living Iron to react with everything and permeate the Air rather than become a liquid. Solid to Gas.
And even if you managed to contain it it's like a boiling airy iron liquid.
Could be weaponized. . . bad if inhaled.
Good point.
Also wiki states:
If a caravan is destroyed (becomes a wreckage) it will drop a portion of the goods it was transporting.[4][62][63] The remainder of the caravan's goods are sunk (lost) when the caravan is destroyed.[64]
But if you carry the goods yourself the wiki staates you drop "percentage of carried gatherables and processed goods." So you do not drop all.
The way how the caravan concept is expected to work, assumes that the player will necessarily transport his goods to the node and from the node it will have no choice but to use a caravan. Even by personal (Self-directed/player driven) caravans which "are initiated by the player, who essentially becomes the caravan."
This would make sense if
You know, trading can be another profession all together even if it's not an official "profession". How much goods can a ship hold? Will it be more than a single person is able to gather? We see the 100x number, but maybe 1x is an hour. I could see a trader buying a variety of goods and shipping it for profit.
So you should think of gathering and trading as 2 separate things, not all part of gathering.
@Rando88
If gathering is too easy there is no reason to trade gatherables.
I've always seen gathering as an endurance profession. Not hard, just time consuming. Hopefully the amount you use is balanced with how much is gathered.
Besides, even if it is easy to gather, not all materials are available at every part of the map or available at every time of the year. Also not everyone will have a gathering profession. There will always be a reason to trade.
A bit of skill and effort for improved efficiency would be nice. Well-defend resources. . . grouping just to get access to minerals. . . timing mini-game for accurate striking. . . spam shift key for more strength when striking because something physical is enjoyable. . . besides that though yes I meant in terms of time required.
And the more 'item sinks' there are; degradation of items requiring raw materials to repair; the better for professions.
According to an old post, the mule can be killed:
That makes the mule unsafe to be used when bandits might be camping for caravans.
Yeah I agree, trading should be seen as separate but that's my point, it should be very much separated. I think the whole idea of 'shipping for profit' is really really taken for granted by people. It doesn't just magically happen. You moving a random resource somewhere far doesn't guarantee a change in price let alone profit. Some resources may have similar availability everywhere (unless we have a situation like Goalid suggested which opens a whole nother can of worms), while others will be biome specific. Caravans transporting biome specific (or rare high quality) resources to other biomes is the most likely use case because it is the most profitable/useful way of utilizing caravans. But this means there must be demand great enough to justify having to move volumes ~100x what a single player can carry in 1 gathering session and not only that, but here needs to be demand for at least a couple of (100x) caravans and there is no reason why this demand would not be the same in each (18) biome. Assuming there is only 2 caravan's worth of resources per biome per week, unless they are supposed to be super rare events, there would be 100 x 17 x 2 = 3,400 times what a single player can gather worth of demand every week from each biome. These numbers are completely scuffed and fabricated but serve to show how crazy high the demand would need to be to support 2 caravans a week to each biome assuming all biomes have ~equal demand for biome specific resources. It would be a lot of hours of gathering biome-specific or high quality resources (since resources common between biomes will not be as profitable to move), even for a collective biome's playerbase per week (not everyone gathers all the time), plus see my original post for all the other issues with needing to create this much demand to have even a low number of caravans active in each biome per week.
The inherent problem with the caravan system with regards to crafting is that their relationship with resource quantity is different. For caravans, the more resources there are, the more useful, rewarding and enjoyable the system is, so more resources = more caravans = more fun. However, with crafting there is diminishing return or a threshold (for some people) of the quantity of resources required and the enjoyability of the system. With crafting, too many resources required = more reliance on caravans = less fun. So the more we are required to use caravans for crafting, the more resources are demanded and the less enjoyable the crafting system will be (subjectively).
This is why I suggested an emphasis on kill certificates or a version of quest caravans that act as item/resource sinks for money. The relationship that kill certificates have with quantity is congruent with caravans. Assuming combat is enjoyable, the more you kill and farm kill certificates, the more potential money you have. This can be sold directly to NPCs in a node or maximized by putting on a caravan (money multiplier) so more killing = more kill certificates x caravans = more money & fun. While for crafting, the huge burden of demand to support caravans is lifted. Caravans will be justified and fun just by virtue of their profit multiplier. This multiplier can be applied to gatherables or fully crafted items (e.g. thematically you deliver swords to a node to arm their guards). This way, caravans will not directly impact or interfere with crafting for player use but caravans will now interact with crafting by 1. removing resources from the economy, 2. making all items have some inherent value (even low lvl iron daggers) and 3. providing more widespread incentive to engage with caravans and the PvP around them. This way, caravans can focus on enhancing crafting rather than constraining it while occurring more often, giving all players and not just crafters/gatherers reasons to engage with it, and can be balanced with the cost of launching the caravan in the first place.
Right, but scarcity can be of high quality resources. As long as there is sufficient sink for resources, things will be fine and there is no reason why crafting alone needs to be a resource sink. In fact, everything I propose is based on a vision of the crafting system where supply of resources far outweighs the demand for crafting useable/wearable items. Gathering would be a very active process where you are not scavenging for a few scraps of metal, lumber or herbs but are constantly running into things to gather (if you wish), gathering is meant to use a non-sparkling visual-based trial and error process anyways. Caravans would act as the main resource sinks, providing money multipliers if you deliver requested goods to far off nodes. The better you are at the gathering (more specialized), the better the quality of the yield. Crafting with this huge supply leads to two types: for caravan trade (money multiplier) or for use (sold to other players). In for use crafting, there is less emphasis on having enough resources (since supply is much more than this type of crafting alone needs) and more emphasis on the quality of the resources. If you happen to gather high quality iron, or iron with the best properties for swords, that would make a good candidate for use by a specialized crafter to create high quality weapon for player use and caravans may be utilized without the entire caravan being devoted to this high quality iron. So crafters can invest as much as they want into getting the perfect resources for their craft without devaluing all resources or requiring huge investment to craft anything at all. This way, any player can engage with gathering and crafting but those who specialize will be justly rewarded. Of course rare, epic, legendary items will require rare resources that can't be in huge supply. They may be acquired through events, harvesting of raid bosses etc that can limit in as predictable or RNG a manner as needed, the supply of these resources for high rarity crafted items.
I don't think anyone would advocate for the AFKing at a bench all day type of crafting. I am also not proposing they walk back local economies and give us global auction houses. My concerns and the proposed solutions are well within what is already described in the game. Quest caravans may very well accomplish exactly what I am saying so I may just be concerned over nothing. I hope you did not misunderstand me to want to change any system, I am merely talking about shifting around the resource sinks.
Your opening statement:
"For the caravan system to be a major part of the gathering-processing-crafting pipeline, the crafting system would need to be really weird and annoying. The amount of resources that a (land) caravan is meant to move is ~10x the mule carry capacity (or ~100x the player carrying capacity). This means that players need to have incentive to move volumes of resources that is 10-100x what they can maximally gather on their own in 1 gathering session. This has terrible implications for crafting and would be best implemented with a different game mechanic in mind."
I don't really get it. You think crafting will be annoying to get resources where you want since not everything is available at one place? That's kind of the point. Why would the fact that caravans move 10x-100x the amount have terrible implications? It is likely that traders will collect a variety of goods from one area and bring them to areas that will make the most profit, which means areas that has low amounts of these goods. If they are carrying 10000 pieces of the same ore it will probably be to a place across the map that doesn't have this ore available.
It is likely that you will have everything you need to level up your skills in one area, but if you want to make something specific or difficult you will have to collect materials from all over.
I read something about money multipliers, but this is already a thing if you think about it. I feel like something they dont want to do is be like "if you go this distance you will get an x bonus". Doesn't seem they want to go with an arcade like style to things, but idk.
One thing that would be cool, if it's not already a thing, is mayor's could put an order out for stuff and traders can bring it to the node and collect. Maybe players could do it too.
Let's see if I format it, if is easier to read
Wiki tells that there will be 3 different caravan types:
Mayoral caravans.[11]
Quest driven caravans.[10]
Personal caravans.[10]
What is the difference between Mayoral caravans and Quest driven caravans?
The Mayoral caravans bring resources strictly for the node development?
Those resources will be used directly by the Mayor or will need further processing?
What is the difference between Quest driven caravans and Personal caravans?
Only the quest driven caravan section mentions that it creates a PvP objective.
That means that personal caravans are subject to the corruption system?
Quest driven caravans and the Mayoral caravans need also caravans to be built by artisans?
Only the personal caravan seems to be initiated from a caravanserai building. This difference is confusing.
I assume there will be many mayoral caravans bringing resources to build the node and enhance defenses.
Stone, wood, whatever is used to build, anti-siege equipment, potion launchers, ammunition for them...
Even apartments for citizens might need building materials.
Possibly players will be gathering a lot of resources needed to be sent to other nodes but also the processed materials will be transported. And by refining the resources, their count might increase.
Mayoral caravans will be going all the time between nodes.
Sure I don't mind writing a tldr
The potential problem: for caravans to occur at any regular interval, very high demand is required for their cargo (most likely biome specific resources). The more of this demand that is expected to come from the crafting system, the more constrained crafting will be to justify the use of caravans.
Proposed solution: delivery of resources and kill certificates to nodes (for profit, building up node buildings etc) should make up the majority of the demand for caravans so that crafting (particularly the volume of resources needed) can be tuned independently from caravans. Very large crafting ventures might still benefit from caravans but general crafting should not be constrained.
Forcing multiple caravans from all of the world to supply an avg player enough to make an avg sword should not be how caravans get their use, and on the flip side we should not need to want to craft a legendary end-game sword to justify the use of caravans. Therefore it would be best to uncouple crafting needs and caravans as much as possible.
And who supplies the mayoral caravans? Who pays for them?
Too many variables are unknown to go into detail about them. They may address my concerns though (fingers crossed).
It's a bit more clear now. I feel like for the average player making the average sword, there will be certain nodes that the materials for doing this will be nearby. So maybe certain towns will be really good for mass producing products and others not so much. For crafting a legendary sword I doubt the rarest materials will be plentiful anyway so they'd have to go looking. So idk if caravans will be used mainly for what you say. The players who want to weaponsmith will go to the node with the cheapest weaponsmithing materials which will be the materials native node.
It's hard for me to speculate how often caravans will be needed since we don't have any information even on how much materials, what kind or how long it will take to get the materials to even make a sword or how much a node will need. So it's a good thing to keep in mind when we at least get to try Alpha 2. Keep in mind the more demand, the more profit, so the more people will do it.
Inventory can fill fast if the game wants so: one pickaxe hit and you get 10 ore.
My concern is that players must not be able to carry those resources to other nodes in their backpacks, making the caravans useless.
It doesn't need to be high value resources though. It can be food. Glass. Sand and Rock. Wood; et cetera.
Trial and error sounds cool.
I like the idea of rock elementals living near high resource metal areas though because they eat it lol. It's a 'tell' but it's also cool and the resource dwindles.
Iron is pretty omnipresent in the world and there are various processing methods for it.
This could expand processing and provide a little gain to those individuals that want to live out their hillbilly/ tribal life gathering red dirt to process over an hour+ lol for a hammer/ dagger.
If you just need a little of something and the bigger resources are guarded by Guilds/ NPCs then you can still make a few Iron tipped arrows or whatever.
Some regions simply lack a resource; Hence trade.
Trial and Error sounds cool. I forgot about that and was hoping for it too.
I don't think the game needs arbitrary multipliers.Trade already has a reason to exist and so do caravans; just look to the real life parallel.
High quality ore for example is simply rock with high iron % or is easily processed. High quality iron doesn't exist.
Processing of raw materials into something like high quality Steel is a real thing though.
I don't see the point of adding arbitrary stuff until a problem is actually recognized.
This makes sense. No one needs 1 ton of iron to craft a couple sets of armor and weapons.
Yeah I think a corpse of a dragon should remain there and be harvested for a week lol. Hacking away at the jaw for an hour to get teeth out sounds pretty awesome.
Creates some interesting dynamics. Logistics included.
You have a lot of imagination
"The more of this demand that is expected to come from the crafting system, the more constrained crafting will be to justify the use of caravans."
Crafting can be places [building], siege weapons, vehicles, containers, mount gear too.
I don't think caravans need to be constant. Then again a place may be under siege for so long or attacked so often they NEED constant caravans; they can't gather and process themself.
If the world increased in size 3x again. . . then 3x again. 4 - 12 minutes to leave a node's influence is not much. Walking down the street takes longer.
You would need to focus on local resources and crafting in order for others to be willing to deliver goods to trade. You would need trade if it takes longer to get from one place to another and everyone can't just focus on 1 spot in the game to push progression of the area to MAX for ALL THE GAINS BRO WE ROLLING IN LOOT WE KILLED 99 DRAGONS.
To better counter-act this POWER GAMING BRO ya just need the world to threaten areas while you leave. . . you need them to grow in power. . . getting stronger and more deadly. . . taking territory. . .. breeding. . . multiplying. . .. then killing everyone and GAME OVER YOU LOSE.
Hence stick to your area and take care of problems like a map-wide warfront.
MAN THE FRONT; DON'T LET THEM PUSH US BACK.
Smaller worlds are more immediate and people might spend the 10 minutes to deliver something just because. They might get it themself. Fill their backpack and take the 10 minute trek back ez ez.
Or they simply leave the shitty area because who cares lmao.
With constant threats and damage, with roaming ambushers and such; gathering may be dangerous. One place may be relatively safe or the group there is defending well enough they can trade the excess for more of what they need (such as food or minerals).
NPC; and possibly Player; THREATS will help shape the economy. Hopefully.
The focus of an area may become combat because they are low on resources and focusing on resources would not benefit them as much as focusing on combat/ power progression.
Alternatively they may have a specialized resource:
The best local resource in a desert may be something more unique like Scorpion Poison. One single product can make an area rich if it has high demand. Scorpion Rearing may be the desert's greatest source of income.
Another thing to consider is this: A desert may seem inhospitable and a bad place to be, but that's why people there may experience less attacks. Or maybe a shitty desert is just fine and a cool place to quest to. I can imagine an Undead Threat being there, for instance.
Hopefully this is all understandable to those reading.
Ice elementals eat Magic Waters and Mana Crystals.
My imagination is large and in charge Strevi lol
If a full backpack encumbers you due to weight; reducing fighting effectiveness; and threats are abound --> You want a carvan to carry the weight and have other unencumbered allies with you.
If backpack space is quite limited then there is a duel benefit to the Caravan.
and if encumberance reduces travel speed then there is a triple benefit to the Caravan.
Caravans aren't the point of the game but I think weak unphysical mages should quite like them lol.
The multipliers are important as they are guaranteed profit margins for the increased risk of putting your goods on a moving pvp zone (caravans) vs putting as much as you can carry in your pockets.
Resources in ashes will have different qualities, not sure exactly how this will be implemented but not everything needs to reflect reality, obviously.
Yes but crafting also includes alchemy, cooking, smithing etc. It would feel weird to have such a big difference between crafting specializations where some need caravans and others don't. Not sure how I'd feel about it.
It seems like bad game design to have some areas of the world incompatible with gathering. Maybe less efficient or having less unique resources but you should not be limited in what part of the world you can take part in one of the core parts of the world. Imagine some areas where there is no combat, players will almost never exclusively do one thing or stay in one spot.
Being under siege will not have widely variable time lines and there is a cooldown between attack frequencies.
Yeah there's different quality gatherables but some things are just what they are and quality depends more on the Processor.
Depends on the context.
Real life parallels are vastly more mechanically elaborate or dynamic and can be learned from. For Iron, just have it be Iron. If you don't want Iron in the game there can still be similar parallels and the real life metal can be learned from.
Making up mechanically interesting things is difficult.
Living things can be very biome specific. Backpack trade for such things is not a big deal imo but you can need 1000 lbs of Shitweed in a carefully sealed container; for your local Alchemists to distill into some rare compound of Megastink that attracts the Dungeater Beatles (half ton bugs) as part of your strategy to Gather their Young from the Dungpile while they're gone; in order to start breeding Dungbeatle WarMounts for your Raid against the Flayer Compound . .. those exoskeletons are quite useful as well. . . and killing a Wild Dungeater is just way too dangerous.
Of course they wouldn't manufacture this Megastink themself; the smell is bad enough as it is. Nothing would be able to contain such a smell and distilling it is like setting off a nuclear bomb you want to be 10 miles from when it goes.
Everyone says, "Should I have to wipe my ass too?" when I suggest some realism but. . . what else do you feed half ton Dungbeetles? lmao. Turned that shit right on their head.
Also deserts need food or something.
There are indeed areas without combat in most MMOs lol. Nothing attacks you without you approaching it in most games, and MMOs have plenty of safe places.
Sieges are a variable that can be changed given there's reason to have things one way or another from a world/ game design perspective. Having more hostiles in one place messing up more things around the node or directly attacking nodes is gameplay.
If you want a safer place to be where you choose when to fight; you can go to those places. If you want the 'wild'; you can go to those places.
If no one is going somewhere perhaps threats grow and spill out or resources slowly grow/ permeate the area. Not every place needs a high population.
You don't populate the world by making it all the same such that they don't need a real mechanical reason to go anywhere else lol that's a lack of design; you don't solve that lack of design with arbitrary multipliers when you can just learn from Reality and make a more mechanically interesting and immersive world.
Variable zones is normal in every game and is part of making a world. Some places are hostile, some aren't. That's just how it is. If you like one area better due to what you want to do; you go there.
If you are not able to go someplace due to being too weak or it's over-saturated; you go somewhere else.
I think you overstate the issue involved with variable circumstances lol. That's just excitement and fun.
Imagine a warfront. . . somewhere in the world where bad shit keeps trying to spill out and kill everyone. Caravans needing to resupply constantly. would be awesome.
Damn this looks really good with the world size and player speed though. The sense of lower power players in a bigger fantasy world has a good feel to it.
Someone striving to be Mayor of an Economic Node might be doing quests with enough bulk orders to drive a Caravan.
Pretty close on quite a bit of it!