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Exhaustion

SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
edited September 2022 in General Discussion
Thread is frequently updated.
Exhaustion: Just add it in

Exhaustion can push progress; if you never accumulate exhaustion you never progress. The more exhausted you get the higher XP you get when you recover. The more exhausted you are for longer, the higher Stamina gains.

EDIT:
Running and 'effort' could require spamming a button press to mirror physical effort and focus. Simply holding the button could be moderate power/ effect, and just tapping the button could be a little spurt of an attack that amounts to a jab.
This could be tied to every spell, running, dodging, and physical attack. A game-wide power boost.

If you compare that to fighting games or starcraft it's child's play. Having it on up to two buttons to switch fingers would be a quality of life nuance.
It would certainly make for a more visceral and satisfying game to many. The increased power would increase in-game exhaustion to be clear.


Exhaustion and Encumberence help balance crafting and transportation while creating an actual game to play.


But Exhaustion should be debilitating if you push it too far [like 'breaking down']. Pacing is good. Vulnerability to damage should increase and power should decrease quite a lot, with 'moves' or spells requiring high to medium exhaustion being locked out when exhausted, up until auto-attacking is too much.
At some point you can't lift the Greatsword even if you have the Strength.

Having weightless, infinity swinging melee combat is not more fun. Having to weight your options is at least twice as fun.
You can do away with a lot of arbitrary cooldown finnicking by just ADDING EXHAUSTION. It practically balances itself, is immersive and makes it an RPG; it helps you figure out what the precise balance really is because there is a cost/benefit involved with everything rather than just a spammy weightless benefit with no grounding in reality.
For a game that amounts to Earthly medieval times but more fantastical, it lacks grounding.

Every level needs to think about how quickly they can kill a target before engaging unless it's an easy encounter. Level 1 quickly learns the mechanic and starts getting in a rhythm and pace.
I'd prefer if everyone started at 20 so that level 40 is twice as strong and every level is a logical +5% power increase but that's another topic.

Classes like Fighters at level 1 should fight unarmed or with brass knuckles for a longer amount of time just fine. A dagger/ knuckle duster combo could be the ideal start.
Not every class should start as effective at combat; not everyone wants to play for pure Combat like someone picking up Fighter. I am referring to all Mana classes. They can do a profession for some XP, shoot their spell at some training dummies, and assist zerging Fighters in a difficult encounter with a 1-off spell that maxes their Exhaustion instantly [because they're novice and magic is tough].

In this way you progress when you rest. Stuff like food will push recovery. Clerics can help push recovery as well. Bards shouldn't be better at removing exhaustion; just help things along.
Spending 2/3 the time recovering is still monumental and I would put the limit at 33% quicker recovery from class abilities. In fact, removing other's exhaustion could be incredibly exhausting. Bards could temporarily lessen the effect of Exhaustion and slightly remove it without extreme benefit at less of a cost though [with diminishing returns from subsequent Bard effects].
Hence the Bard is good for smoothing out easier and shorter encounters and the Cleric is quite good for long encounters or ones where the team need to use their high exhaustion abilities to take it down quickly and not die.
Summoners might be good for avoiding Exhaustion all together. Summons should be weak imo; they should need to summon more consistently.

Each class has one type of main Exhaustion; Physical or Manic. And they simply put much less effort [lower or no effect] into stuff that creates unfavored Exhaustion.
Getting to Medium+ Exhaustion in one thing starts to add Exhaustion to the other [hence extreme physical exhaustion creates medium manic exhaustion].
Professions can create a certain ratio of Exhaustion; hence Mages tend to be great at pure Mental professions but Fighters can Lumberjack, Mine, etc and carry resources much easier.

CARRY BURDEN. People with high Stamina and Strength can simply carry more for longer. Thus physical classes are better at Gathering.

Exhaustion Posting From Other Threads:

Attribute Training
Intermittent Softlock from 'Training'
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/365396/#Comment_365396
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/365397/#Comment_365397
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/365398/#Comment_365398
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/365399/#Comment_365399
And all of this simply encompasses the stat "Stamina" and Progression. Deeper involvement can be created for every mechanic in the game.
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Comments

  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member
    edited September 2022
    I got exhausted IRL imagining this implemented in game, then having to play the game
  • Voxtrium wrote: »
    I got exhausted IRL imagining this implemented in game, then having to play the game

    I get exhaustion thinking about playing games with cheap thoughtless weightless combat and systems. It's why I don't play them.
  • Exhaustion is so arbitrary, plus we are the chosen explorers and warriors entering through the divine gates. The system you described above would put so much weight and management in the game it would become extraordinarily tedious.
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    How is exhaustion arbitrary. Call real life arbitrary: you're just a fool.
    I don't think it would increase tedium. You just shift numbers around and decrease power gap between low and high level so lower levels are useful for higher level content.

    Here is a good example of Exhaustion not having much effect:
    Fighter uses a 2 hand. He gets tired after a little bit. He drops the weapon and puts on his knuckle dusters to beat shit up for another 5 minutes then takes a break from killing to down 5 fish after cooking them. This takes about 2 minutes. His XP bar slowly grows while he is eating and resting, and his Health slowly regenerates.

    It's a pacing and progression ##s issue.

    Exhaustion lets you choose between the big weapon and moves that kill quickly and the lighter stuff that lets you brawl it out tell the sun sets. When the game is easy you brawl through it. When it's difficult you stop and think, then use a big weapon.
  • Imagine a Cleric acting as Lacky lol carrying all the gear and removing some exhaustion. Then they pass out. Would be funny.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Fuck no. I thought you couldn't make a worst post than the last one... this ain't a survival game, and idk why you sound so entitled
    I get exhaustion thinking about playing games with cheap thoughtless weightless combat and systems. It's why I don't play them.

    good to know, guess you won't be playing then, cuz this game is been in development for 6 years and so far pretty much no new mechanics like this have been added since the original design - 0 chances this would get added.
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  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    Liniker wrote: »
    Fuck no. I thought you couldn't make a worst post than the last one... this ain't a survival game, and idk why you sound so entitled
    I get exhaustion thinking about playing games with cheap thoughtless weightless combat and systems. It's why I don't play them.

    good to know, guess you won't be playing then, cuz this game is been in development for 6 years and so far pretty much no new mechanics like this have been added since the original design - 0 chances this would get added.

    You're right I probably won't be playing. Most people don't play video games beyond mini-game time fillers.

    You're entitled to your fixation on what a good game is, and I guess I am too.
    Then again I'm the more open-minded one here lmao.
  • I will add that Exhaustion mechanics makes it much more difficult for bots.
  • This doesn't sound like a good idea for a mmorpg.
  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    This doesn't sound like a good idea for a mmorpg.

    You want the same formula recreated without innovation or elaboration?
  • no
  • HinotoriHinotori Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    sounds dogshit op.

    We already have a mana management system for weapon attacks limiting strikes why double it up with character exhaustion and everything else youre trying to implement belongs in a tedious survival sim.
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  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    Natasha wrote: »
    sounds dogshit op.

    We already have a mana management system for weapon attacks limiting strikes why double it up with character exhaustion and everything else youre trying to implement belongs in a tedious survival sim.

    Remove mana for physical classes. Remove mana altogether even; replace with exhaustion.
    Having both would be tedious and arbitrary I agree.
    "Mana" could still exist for spellcasters though; just that it comes from a few items and places and is an expendable resource; consume it and add power/ effect to a spell or may be necessary to cast it in the first place.
  • Letting Mages charge Mana Crystals through a somewhat slow process that wracks up Exhaustion. . . to expend on big spells in battle.
    Crystals have to be mined and degrade after multiple uses? Sounds good to me.
    The Fighter's Mining Union will have plenty of work to do.

    Sounds dope.
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    Actually, to elaborate further:
    Spellcasters gain and hold mana differently.
    Every class has a slow mana regen and low pool. 1/1 at level 1 for a summoner, 3/3 for a mage, et cetera. 1 mana per minute.
    They can expend effort to add temporary mana up to say 150% of their pool for 30 seconds, or expend greater effort to put that mana in a crystal. Crystals hold mana for 1 minute at the low end and 1 hour at the high end or something.
    Spells have different mana requirements.

    CRAFTABLES have different mana requirements.
    Craftables can incorporate "mana holding" or "temporary mana duration increase" stuff into it.

    Professions could be a necessity for mana management in this way, and design of mana using classes would be tight and intentional; Easy for balance and conducive to mechanical elaboration.

    More OOMPH to the spellcasters.

    Simple as that.
  • This doesn't seem enjoyable to me.

    The stamina bar in Valheim is already a PITA constraint that really adds no value to how the game is played. I can't see regulating the pace of combat using this system that adds any value or solves any problem in an MMO.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • If I want an exhaustion mechanic I would go ahead and play a survival game to get that fix, @Sapiverenus.

    As most everyone in thread has said, this mechanic isn’t appropriate for this genre.
  • Valheim is pretty popular of a game. It's $20 and an Early Access single player game with good daily and total player count. Peak player count was about 500k on Steam; so I guess it made over 10 mil as a somewhat simple early access game. It had a lot of appeal.
    I really don't think stamina detracts anything. You can sprint for a short time to catch up to an enemy or escape one for a bit, or jog around.
    lol. look harder. Games are all about constraints you act within.
  • If I want an exhaustion mechanic I would go ahead and play a survival game to get that fix, @Sapiverenus.

    As most everyone in thread has said, this mechanic isn’t appropriate for this genre.

    They say it but that's all they say. That's all you said as well. It's an arbitrary judgement.
    Being part of a world and surviving doesn't stop it from being an MMORPG. Having rangers be good at hunting would give them a role to play and it would appeal to certain people.

    I'll ask you the same question I asked @Mag7spy :
    "You want the same formula recreated without innovation or elaboration? "

    Another formulaic MMO with slight differences just puts it next to every other MMO. Might as well play BDO, GW2 or WoW.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    edited September 2022
    I really don't think stamina detracts anything. You can sprint for a short time to catch up to an enemy or escape one for a bit, or jog around.

    Well, constraints are best implemented when they are calibrated relative to what you're trying to do in the game. Valheim is just a big gathering and building game, there's almost no point to having a stamina mechanic as there's no balance to worry about. Once you get to a certain level of gear you can literally kill 95% of anything within 2-3 hits. Exhaustion doesn't make that more interesting, it makes it more tedious.

    Which is exactly what it would do in an MMO.
    lol. look harder. Games are all about constraints you act within.

    Huh? It's your proposal. If you want to sell it then provide us with specific examples of how your idea either 1) solves a problem or 2) adds additional value to the as-is game

    :s

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • CROW3 wrote: »
    I really don't think stamina detracts anything. You can sprint for a short time to catch up to an enemy or escape one for a bit, or jog around.

    Well, constraints are best implemented when they are calibrated relative to what you're trying to do in the game. Valheim is just a big gathering and building game, there's almost no point to having a stamina mechanic as there's no balance to worry about. Once you get to a certain level of gear you can literally kill 95% of anything within 2-3 hits. Exhaustion doesn't make that more interesting, it makes it more tedious.

    "There's no balance to worry about" what do you think game design is? Just turn on God Mode and delete the game.exe lol how pointless of an argument can you make?

    You are basically arguing for Exhaustion to be in an MMO where balance is even more significant.

    Stamina boils down to sprint and attack cooldowns in Valheim; and it regenerates very quickly. Do you want Mana and Cooldowns to be removed from MMOs? Are Energy Rogues from WoW the most tedious class in the game?
    If you don't like the game then that's fine, but exhaustion isn't the reason why lol.
    Stamina grows quite a bit in Valheim as well. Where is this great tedium?
    Reroll your entire argument lol.

    And yes MMOs are basically designed to be tedious. Wish they weren't. Power scaling is too high and combat is uninteresting. XP is the big defining metric instead of content. Just poorly designed games overall.
    lol. look harder. Games are all about constraints you act within.

    Huh? It's your proposal. If you want to sell it then provide us with specific examples of how your idea either 1) solves a problem or 2) adds additional value to the as-is game

    :s

    Sell me on Valheim. Wait ya can't. Sell me on Ashes of Creation. Wait ya can't.
    You can't sell water to people in the desert and are asking me to do something I've already done.

    Try reading the damn thread and responding to the 'sell'.
  • Sell me on Valheim.

    Viking Minecraft.
    Sell me on Ashes of Creation.

    Archeage, L2, & EQN have a 3-way love-child.

    Try reading the damn thread and responding to the 'sell'.

    Oh, if that's it. I did. Not interested.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • CROW3 wrote: »
    Sell me on Valheim.

    Viking Minecraft.
    Sell me on Ashes of Creation.

    Archeage, L2, & EQN have a 3-way love-child.

    Try reading the damn thread and responding to the 'sell'.

    Oh, if that's it. I did. Not interested.

    lol. You have no constructive input on anything I've said because you're a smooth brain. Can't handle the actual work of trying to improve or design something. That's why your "sell" is "it's like a successful game that exists but different".

    You can't use your brain or contribute to the topic with any effort. It's clear how phobic to any form of exhaustion you are.
    Maybe that's all there is to it; your escape of reality has pacing, ebbs n flows, mechanics that make it feel more alive?
    God. . . if you wanted a living world you'd go Outside!

    Honestly.
  • Yes, that must be it. Thanks for sorting that out for me. I feel much better! :D
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  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    Every one of your replies have been low effort

    you're an empty fight
  • I know a lot of people have just said "No" in this thread, and I would agree I don't like the addition of this mechanic, but the way you have been responding is making your position worse. If people disagree with your idea then try to come up with something that might change their minds, not just make them ignore your posts.

    Valheim is a popular game but it's not an MMO, I don't think exhaustion will work very well and I won't like seeing it in the game. Instead of making a rude reply to this post, try and change my mind.
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  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    I am under no obligation to try and make the game better lol
    Their loss. That's the truth.
    Multiple low effort flat responses are rude and unproductive @Scarbeus

    Yeah and how the hell haven't I tried to change minds lol what kind of scripted response is this? Same low effort shit.
  • I am under no obligation to try and make the game better lol
    True no one is, but voicing opinions and giving feedback is what the forums are mainly for.
    Their loss. That's the truth.
    And this quote and this thread is just one persons opinion.
    Multiple low effort flat responses are rude and unproductive @Scarbeus
    A lot of people have disagreed and your responses have just been rude. If you can convince people otherwise as to why "Actually, exhaustion is a good idea because it makes X, Y and Z aspects of the game better" then this thread would be more interesting.
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  • Not a fan of this sort of system, I'm pretty sure Mu had something similar for combat which you couldn't drink potions to recover, so you needed to wait to recover and it was dogshit.

    I'm in favor of adding some limitations to characters like weight limit, inventory size and oxygen, but no exhaustion/stamina. So that's a no from me, brotherman.
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  • Scarbeus wrote: »
    I am under no obligation to try and make the game better lol
    True no one is, but voicing opinions and giving feedback is what the forums are mainly for.
    Their loss. That's the truth.
    And this quote and this thread is just one persons opinion.
    Multiple low effort flat responses are rude and unproductive @Scarbeus
    A lot of people have disagreed and your responses have just been rude. If you can convince people otherwise as to why "Actually, exhaustion is a good idea because it makes X, Y and Z aspects of the game better" then this thread would be more interesting.

    I'll quote myself from another thread:
    "Not everyone wants to play the Fighter class and spam click their number keys for arbitrary progression numbers [XP] and ignore everything else.
    Some people want to provide resources to the 80 IQ Fighters that are protecting areas and raiding others. That's just how it is. "

    and
    "Rangers could serve a critical role of Hunting. Animals may sprint away and escape without the advantages the Ranger class brings. Other classes may buy player hunted and gathered food; or have to figure it out on their own.
    "

    and from this thread:
    "Having rangers be good at hunting would give them a role to play and it would appeal to certain people."

    "You can do away with a lot of arbitrary cooldown finnicking by just ADDING EXHAUSTION. It practically balances itself, is immersive and makes it an RPG; it helps you figure out what the precise balance really is because there is a cost/benefit involved with everything rather than just a spammy weightless benefit with no grounding in reality."

    "Fighter uses a 2 hand. He gets tired after a little bit. He drops the weapon and puts on his knuckle dusters to beat shit up for another 5 minutes then takes a break from killing to down 5 fish after cooking them. This takes about 2 minutes. His XP bar slowly grows while he is eating and resting, and his Health slowly regenerates."

    and again from a separate thread:
    "Fighters especially may need tens of pounds of food to restore health, dispel exhaustion and go back to fighting with a bit of a pep.
    Without food players may regenerate health and mana extremely slow and suffer exhaustion for decreased damage and less defense. They may even die!"
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