I am 9001% speaking from experience playing these types of games and what i have seen. It is a dangerous game to allow people to blow up their gear, they will quit, the games like that lose a lot of players and those games even SHUT DOWN as i mentioned with elyon earlier.
I mean, that does in fact sound like a broken system. I was OE things at ~60% and it felt fair. It seemed fair to all the other players too.
Obviously we all had the survivorship bias, but I feel like this dude has the opposite of that where he might've just been really unlucky or at least felt really unlucky.
Anything that wants gear to blow up doesn't understand how bad enhancing is. It is the same people that wont play lost ark or BDO and yet wanting systems that killed those games.
PvE players say on other forums that PvP kills the games.
Some say if only 20k players play, the game is dead or failed.
Have you played Black desert online, elyon or lost ark? I need a answer to this question before i can continue this discussion.
No, I haven't. I guess you will have to describe the emotions players feel, which drives them away from those games.
Are you fine spending 100 hours and getting no gear from it, and potentially having the same result again in the future spending that many hours or more to get no gear again do to gambling rng?
Maybe. Depends how things are balanced.
In this case...
Over-enchanting items comes with a potential risk that the item decays or is destroyed if a safety margin is exceeded. This system is subject to testing.[10][11]
... if the safety margin is not exceeded, chances to break are 0%
We need to know how the risk distribution is beyond that margin, if is linear or exponential...
P2W games balance also to encourage paying real money.
I believe some players feel extreme emotions, both the desire to get those over enchanted items and the suffering when they fail.
Some players hate being killed in pvp.
Losing is painful for many.
But if I get resources, I am ready to craft new gear for them. With a discount! ^^
Some enchanting is fine but systems can still be designed even without pay 2 win to become a hellish gambling simulator. One that makes gear drops more common and enhancing the main progression over anything else.
There are no systems where it is fun like that, it kills games and the reason why i linked one earlier. Unless you experience it you can't understand how bad that kind of stuff is. You can do enhancing without relying on heavy destruction and it still can be a time investment / risk thing.
Pattern is always the same people enjoy it do the enhancement and everyone complains and people eventually quit over it. Lost ark is a perfect example, community hated it and devs had to add a bunch of things in game so people didn't hate themselves and they still started to bleed players.
So, what is your suggestion for item sink?
I did a whole page post in one of the enhancement threads on how to approach it with a unique system. I could attempt to find it again wherever its buried if you want to see. There are plenty of ways to have item sinks, you simply give people a reason to to use it as a material and break it down. Part of that most likely will exist in the game to begin with to repair the gear.
I also don't really view it as a material sink, you are simply gambling the gear and if you are smart you have back ups and back ups for those back ups. You can simply create reasons to use semi enhanced gear as a material so there is a reason for it to be used and destroyed to buff another of the same item.
Ie i have his item and this semi enhanced other one, and if I break the enhanced one down i can power up this rare orb and attempt to enhance my other sword up and it could fail or be successful. (You are essentially forcing the player to enhance properly like how most players normally do having back ups, rather then giving the door for them to rage enhance and quit the game)
^ Above is not the idea i mentioned in the other thread months ago, but this could easily be added onto it and make it even more difficult and time consuming to enhance. If you want me to get my old post let me know and ill do the tomorrow at some point
I do not want to debate your old post.
But if it is a good suggestion, it is worth being posted a few times whenever the topic comes up.
I am not a fan of RNG in crafting either.
I would rather prefer item sink through PvP than crafting: they break them, I sell new items.
But now I checked once more the wiki.
And this time I noticed a different statement:
Over-enchanting carries the risk of destroying that item[2], rendering it useless for use temporarily.[3]
I dont think anything is set in stone on that stuff yet, we will need to see what they plan on doing. I'm just saying a lot of people heavily dislike gambling destruction. With a lot of Kr games its not about getting gear gear but jsut getting mats to use in the slot machine until you get lucky.
Some people like it, some people have a gambling addiction, and a lot of people don't realize how bad the system can be.
I simply view if you can blow up all your gear it gives you a option to leave, and far less of a reason to come back months alter after a break as you have 0 gear and 0 money. There can be plenty of reasons why people might enhance like that as well.
I'd rather a system that can have enhancing but still have proper gear progression where your gear increase stops being finding new weapons and simply getting mats to gamble with.
With my post nothing to argue with, simply was my take at a alternative idea, that can be expanded on, changed, adjusted, etc. Just showing other are other ways to do enhancing
Going to be explaining this in steps by player progress to make it as simple and as much of a giant paragraph as possible
Step 1 - Level 1 - mid level
No enhancing do to the complexity of how some system can be as its better to make sure players are more comfortable learning other elements of the game first and not be left with a potential bad experience.
Light level of weapon and armor enhancement in place upon obtaining RARE items that can apply a enhancement buff increasing the states on a weapon and maybe a secondary effect as well (frost, poison, etc that might slightly modify the appearance). This level of enhancement would only have one level to it and a rng chance of applying as well as rng of the strength of the buff with quality. Between mid and Max level you would be able to get another item that would give a second chance of a further buff tot he enhancement on the weapon.
At this point it be meant to start introducing it to players that are more comfortable and versed in the game without being a over necessity that they will need as gear as over time they will over level the weapon and need a new weapon more beneficial to their current power. Which will help get players use to the potential good and bad rng elements when it comes to enhancing without being over bound to one piece of gear.
With this system in place the rare item is the only thing that is ever loss, gear can only have a single enhancement on them and will need a new piece of gear if they want to work with another enhancement on it.
Step 3 - Max level - End game Strength level 5-20%
High level enhancements can be obtained from high end content and a increase in enhancement levels up 4.
As before it would work on rng if it applies to your weapon or not with its lower rate based on the frequency which you would be able to get them in game. Maybe either 10-20% chance for it to be applied on your weapon.
It would be similar to step to step 2 where the strength of quality would be based on rng but rather then a random number the more times you fail until pity, the stronger the quality will be on the gear. (This way it would be an attempt to reduce the pain of failing as its a way to make your weapon stronger when the enhancement finally pops when you eventually work towards the free pity enhancement).
If you reach to max pity the quality is increased by about 40-50% per enhancement level. So about 2.5-5% increase.
There would be a bonus those those that get lucky, but also unlucky as well without it having too much of a overall impact on who was more lucky or not based solely on the rng aspect of enhancing. (Though the drops being rare as well and having to do high level content to be these level gems would add to a gear chase people can always be working towards.)
These like in step 2 are once per weapon, once its enchanted you can't try to redo the enchantment. This way those rare weapons you find, it gives reason to try to get another one of them and ensures a constant gear chase as hardcore players try to fully min max.
Step 4 - End Game Strength level 20%
As stated in Step 3 players have a cycle of trying to enhance their gear and make it as strong as possible. There can be only system in place maybe based on your element of enhancing you get secondary effects.
ie Protections, Fire dots, increase pentation, cooldown reduction, etc
There of course can be different types of enhancement effects on the different pieces of gear, as well as some effect being weaker to certain armor and enemy types or maybe slightly stronger.
So you have a mix of enhancement increasing overall strength as well as giving a special secondary effect to stats. With a mix of the different weapons players find and craft as well as having different builds for different situations. It would further help push the economy to thrive, as well being more friend to ensure people do not feel their progression and time is not being lost / wasted.
conclusion
Overall for end game if you gain a increase of 50% power when you are fully maxed out, I believe having 30% should come from your gear drops. Having that being exciting honestly I think is the best way to go. I believe this kind of enhancement system for the last 20% would help compliment the economy and the game design I believe as it would be something people have to constantly work towards, as well get those rare drops multiple times perhaps as they try to enhance them and bring them to their pinnacle with different types of stats. As well as having the potential for nice effects faint or spectacular.
Enchanting Systems that feature "Destruction" and "Down-grading" dont usually feature "destruction" and "down-grading". They merely introduce another item into the mix that prevents those things from happening.
This merely creates another item thrown into the mix that serves as a gold and resource sink in the high levels of enchanting.
Just look through the list of RNG-enchanting games and tell me which few (of the dozens of games) do not have an item in the game, that prevents "critical failures".
Worrying about critical failures and destruction is unnecessary as long as we dont know the corner stones of the systems in AoC considering that the go-to version of most enchanting systems always prevent the things you are complaining about from happening.
If you reach to max pity the quality is increased by about 40-50% per enhancement level. So about 2.5-5% increase.
Thanks for bringing the old post.
What is "pity" in this context?
In games that use these kinds of systems BDO, Elyon, Lost ark every time you fail they give you a pity stack which increases your chance to succeed.
IE if you have a fail stack of 50 you will have a 50% chance now to get the item or the stack increases again. (though based on the size of the stack and type of item you start to get minimal increase so it might onyl boost your chance by .2%). If you have a fails tack of 300 you might have a chance to succed on a item by 30% instead of the 1% at a 0 stack.
My idea for this was kind of a psychology thing where people get depressed when they fail over and over and get nothing. Making it so failing turns into a positive because you are getting a more powerful item. Though if you get it early it will be weak but you were also lucky and got the item earlier.
So pity is simply you have failed so many times and this is the bonus you get for failing. Max pity can give you 100% chance to succeed or such.
Comments
Obviously we all had the survivorship bias, but I feel like this dude has the opposite of that where he might've just been really unlucky or at least felt really unlucky.
I do not want to debate your old post.
But if it is a good suggestion, it is worth being posted a few times whenever the topic comes up.
I am not a fan of RNG in crafting either.
I would rather prefer item sink through PvP than crafting: they break them, I sell new items.
But now I checked once more the wiki.
And this time I noticed a different statement: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Item_sinks
So after all this is only a "temporary" effect, no real item sink.
Some people like it, some people have a gambling addiction, and a lot of people don't realize how bad the system can be.
I simply view if you can blow up all your gear it gives you a option to leave, and far less of a reason to come back months alter after a break as you have 0 gear and 0 money. There can be plenty of reasons why people might enhance like that as well.
I'd rather a system that can have enhancing but still have proper gear progression where your gear increase stops being finding new weapons and simply getting mats to gamble with.
With my post nothing to argue with, simply was my take at a alternative idea, that can be expanded on, changed, adjusted, etc. Just showing other are other ways to do enhancing
IF I WERE TO DO A ENHACEMENT SYSTEM WITH RNG
Going to be explaining this in steps by player progress to make it as simple and as much of a giant paragraph as possible
Step 1 - Level 1 - mid level
No enhancing do to the complexity of how some system can be as its better to make sure players are more comfortable learning other elements of the game first and not be left with a potential bad experience.
Step 2 - Mid level - High Level Strength level 4-8%
Light level of weapon and armor enhancement in place upon obtaining RARE items that can apply a enhancement buff increasing the states on a weapon and maybe a secondary effect as well (frost, poison, etc that might slightly modify the appearance). This level of enhancement would only have one level to it and a rng chance of applying as well as rng of the strength of the buff with quality. Between mid and Max level you would be able to get another item that would give a second chance of a further buff tot he enhancement on the weapon.
At this point it be meant to start introducing it to players that are more comfortable and versed in the game without being a over necessity that they will need as gear as over time they will over level the weapon and need a new weapon more beneficial to their current power. Which will help get players use to the potential good and bad rng elements when it comes to enhancing without being over bound to one piece of gear.
With this system in place the rare item is the only thing that is ever loss, gear can only have a single enhancement on them and will need a new piece of gear if they want to work with another enhancement on it.
Step 3 - Max level - End game Strength level 5-20%
High level enhancements can be obtained from high end content and a increase in enhancement levels up 4.
As before it would work on rng if it applies to your weapon or not with its lower rate based on the frequency which you would be able to get them in game. Maybe either 10-20% chance for it to be applied on your weapon.
It would be similar to step to step 2 where the strength of quality would be based on rng but rather then a random number the more times you fail until pity, the stronger the quality will be on the gear. (This way it would be an attempt to reduce the pain of failing as its a way to make your weapon stronger when the enhancement finally pops when you eventually work towards the free pity enhancement).
If you reach to max pity the quality is increased by about 40-50% per enhancement level. So about 2.5-5% increase.
There would be a bonus those those that get lucky, but also unlucky as well without it having too much of a overall impact on who was more lucky or not based solely on the rng aspect of enhancing. (Though the drops being rare as well and having to do high level content to be these level gems would add to a gear chase people can always be working towards.)
These like in step 2 are once per weapon, once its enchanted you can't try to redo the enchantment. This way those rare weapons you find, it gives reason to try to get another one of them and ensures a constant gear chase as hardcore players try to fully min max.
Step 4 - End Game Strength level 20%
As stated in Step 3 players have a cycle of trying to enhance their gear and make it as strong as possible. There can be only system in place maybe based on your element of enhancing you get secondary effects.
ie Protections, Fire dots, increase pentation, cooldown reduction, etc
There of course can be different types of enhancement effects on the different pieces of gear, as well as some effect being weaker to certain armor and enemy types or maybe slightly stronger.
So you have a mix of enhancement increasing overall strength as well as giving a special secondary effect to stats. With a mix of the different weapons players find and craft as well as having different builds for different situations. It would further help push the economy to thrive, as well being more friend to ensure people do not feel their progression and time is not being lost / wasted.
conclusion
Overall for end game if you gain a increase of 50% power when you are fully maxed out, I believe having 30% should come from your gear drops. Having that being exciting honestly I think is the best way to go. I believe this kind of enhancement system for the last 20% would help compliment the economy and the game design I believe as it would be something people have to constantly work towards, as well get those rare drops multiple times perhaps as they try to enhance them and bring them to their pinnacle with different types of stats. As well as having the potential for nice effects faint or spectacular.
critique is welcome
This merely creates another item thrown into the mix that serves as a gold and resource sink in the high levels of enchanting.
Just look through the list of RNG-enchanting games and tell me which few (of the dozens of games) do not have an item in the game, that prevents "critical failures".
Worrying about critical failures and destruction is unnecessary as long as we dont know the corner stones of the systems in AoC considering that the go-to version of most enchanting systems always prevent the things you are complaining about from happening.
What is "pity" in this context?
In games that use these kinds of systems BDO, Elyon, Lost ark every time you fail they give you a pity stack which increases your chance to succeed.
IE if you have a fail stack of 50 you will have a 50% chance now to get the item or the stack increases again. (though based on the size of the stack and type of item you start to get minimal increase so it might onyl boost your chance by .2%). If you have a fails tack of 300 you might have a chance to succed on a item by 30% instead of the 1% at a 0 stack.
My idea for this was kind of a psychology thing where people get depressed when they fail over and over and get nothing. Making it so failing turns into a positive because you are getting a more powerful item. Though if you get it early it will be weak but you were also lucky and got the item earlier.
So pity is simply you have failed so many times and this is the bonus you get for failing. Max pity can give you 100% chance to succeed or such.