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Would like to see revival of Support classes

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Comments

  • IskiabIskiab Member, Alpha Two
    Well they have priest and bard listed as support, and the goal they said is to make it optimal to have one class in every group. That leads me to believe priests will be the healers (so newer definition of support) and bards to be the buffers (traditional definition of support).

    That's what I'm thinking because if bards and priests both were just healers, why bring both?
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Orym wrote: »
    @Diamaht Would you prefer if every 8 man party would NEED a support class in their group?
    Basically add a fourth role to make it so its 4 roles instead of the "holy trinity" of healer, tank, dps?

    I'm personally not a fan of dedicated support classes since I don't see them fit into the trinity system that intrepid is going with and that works so great in many other mmos.

    Because why implement a support role that is not really needed in the same way every other role is. If a support class is implementet they should make it so every group NEEDS one the same way every group needs a healer, tank and dps.

    Make ashes a quadrinity??

    /edit
    •Why is is not enough for you(or other support class entusiasts) to spec into a more group buff oriented style on your dps, tank or heal class?
    •Is it not enough to need 3 different roles to clear content, you really wanna search for 4 different roles when you wanna do stuff like a dungeon for example?

    Not at all, and many games in the past that had support classes didn't require them. I didn't play Ragnatok but games like SWG and EQ had plenty of them and they fit right in without requirement. Remember those were the games that invented the term "holy trinity". It wasnt a quadrinity then and won't be now.

    That being said, if a small subset of content was introduced where a support would be essential, I'm all for it. We need wider varieties of content in MMOs.
  • In EQ the elite bard would occasionally show up at a raid and things would stop. A few minutes would go by and then suddenly, over the top of some random wall, we would see the main zones boss running behind him as he brought it to the raid to kill. Save the raid 2 hours of trash killing simply because you are amazing at a specific class, that is legendary. Everyone being able to do that? Nope.

    If there is no CC or Support classes, then how do you get any sense of accomplishment? I mean, just because you stand outside the ring, run around a pillar, shoot off the rotation right and the boss dies, doesn't mean that is where the fun is. For me, the fun was always in the social atmosphere of the game, and that required individuality to a degree, and not by cosmetics stores. You had classes that were relied upon to get going, and to win.

    I like support classes that are required in order to make the group/raid happen. Honestly. I don't want the ease of getting home and just grabbing 25 people. Yea, I'm looking for 2 priests to get this raid going and I like that. If we dont get them, the raid is off. Yes. We have enough CC to manage the adds on the entryway of the castle? Good we can proceed. NO!? We'll officers, get to the hub and start calling out, were getting some new members today. (Me in the hub praying for a chance to go raid. "CC looking for raid progression in the HUHIHHJH".... ) Yes. I like this idea. Why?? Because I want to feel the accomplishment when it happens. The dopamine rush will be real, and I won't be oversaturated with it from all the amazing achievements and progress I have done because I mashed a dps button and stood outside the rings.

    Im rambling. Thats me. Im new here. tldr: I like support classes and the old social system of needing them in order to progress in a certain style, be it with more ease, with more dps, with better buffs, etc. I liked having support, because the game was hard and we needed it.
  • SummpwnerSummpwner Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Krulik_SK wrote: »
    If there is no CC or Support classes, then how do you get any sense of accomplishment? I mean, just because you stand outside the ring, run around a pillar, shoot off the rotation right and the boss dies, doesn't mean that is where the fun is. For me, the fun was always in the social atmosphere of the game, and that required individuality to a degree, and not by cosmetics stores. You had classes that were relied upon to get going, and to win

    Lol I just wrote everything below and forgot to respond to the quote:
    I think the sense of accomplishment comes from the group passing whatever encounter, and them knowing that they might have missed every ability because the enemy blinded them and because of your support abilities, they could hit the enemies again. It's soft, but it would be enough for me to continue playing that role. You don't need the game to give you a cookie for using your skills the way they were designed to be used.

    In GW1 there were support skills that might remove conditions or hexes, or slow enemies in an area, or skills to interrupt the enemy, strip their buffs, increase the cast time of enemies, provide extra armor to allies, knocking down foes for others to combo from, increasing the cooldown of the next skill an enemy used, increasing projectile speed (in GW1, slow projectiles could miss if you sidestepped), increasing cooldown speeds of allies, increasing the damage of the next skill an ally uses, etc.

    There is a TON of design space for support skills. I could see the High Priest having few skills to remove Curses, while the Cultist or Warlock have several powerful skills to do such a thing. I could see the Knight providing physical defenses to the party while the Nightshield would provide defenses from unholy or darkness or whatever the game will call that.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    so you guys just wants a support that doesnt heal, and do what exactly?
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    so you guys just wants a support that doesnt heal, and do what exactly?

    All the things we've described throughout this multipage thread
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    so you guys just wants a support that doesnt heal, and do what exactly?

    All the things we've described throughout this multipage thread

    healing = supporting. and the cleric already has some cc and debuffs
  • SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    so you guys just wants a support that doesnt heal, and do what exactly?

    All the things we've described throughout this multipage thread

    healing = supporting. and the cleric already has some cc and debuffs

    Healing may be supporting, but supporting isn't automatically healing.

    As a Bard, I expect to do relatively little healing, and a LOT of buffing. I should have some regen, but no burst heals. I should have status resistance buffs, but not cleansing abilities. My focus will be on helping my party adapt to the challenges they face, amplifying synergies and covering gaps relative to varying content. Healing is my Cleric's job. If I have to spend my time on that, nobody's doing my job. So if you'll excuse me, I'll be busy reducing the need for healing in the first place.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    ofc we already have bards and they will most likely be doing all that =D
    and summoners will probably be debuffing instead
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Unfortunately there are no modern examples. The archetype went away when things became more solo friendly. The best I can say is have a look at the thread, its full of examples from past games.

    If it makes it into Ashes you'll see that its a very different playstyle from modern bards and clerics.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    same playstyle as the professor from ro or bd/sws from l2. theres nothing wrong with healing too tho. the problem with that playstyle is that it will be extremely unpopular if thats all they do T_T
  • ariatrasariatras Member, Founder, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    As I am not privy to alpha one and the game mechanics other then what is shown. I cannot be completely certain. I will have to wait for Alpha Two (Which I think I have access to) for a more complete understanding.

    But as I see things now, and I would absolutely -love- to be wrong. But the classes seem rather uninspired so far. It has all looked fairly standard in terms of combat, and I've not personally seen anything that makes me think the combat system will be a deep one. Over the years, I've become rather pessimistic I'll admit. So I don't take the words of developers as gospel, things change, and usually not for the better.

    As things stand, I don't see support classes work in Ashes. But maybe my definition of support is different. So I'll give some examples.

    Support, in my view doesn't mean just healing. It is supporting others, individuals by augmenting their attacks with some of your own skills/magic. Or even manipulate the environment. Erecting a wall of earth to create a safe spot from a frontal AoE cone. Things that don't benefit you, or the damage you deal directly, but can nonetheless be handy or even important in groups. It doesn't have to be limited to a specific class combo either. Say I pick a summoner. And I see someone, or even myself about to take a hit from range (fireball, arrow, whatever doesn't matter) and I send my summon, or one of my summons in its path to take the hit and die.
    Spells and skills that aren't just damage but foster and allow creativity. Now this last one I have no idea how you would even begin to code that. So I don't expect that. But what I've seen so far (and yes, I know it's Alpha) hasn't been impressive or groundbreaking
    l8im8pj8upjq.gif


  • SummpwnerSummpwner Member, Alpha Two
    ariatras wrote: »
    But what I've seen so far (and yes, I know it's Alpha) hasn't been impressive or groundbreaking

    They haven't released anything aside from a general idea. You said a number of good ideas, and I'm sure professional game designers might be able to surprise you with a few more before they tease the actual gameplay.
  • ariatrasariatras Member, Founder, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Summpwner wrote: »
    ariatras wrote: »
    But what I've seen so far (and yes, I know it's Alpha) hasn't been impressive or groundbreaking

    They haven't released anything aside from a general idea. You said a number of good ideas, and I'm sure professional game designers might be able to surprise you with a few more before they tease the actual gameplay.

    Which is why I prefaced it the way I did. Everything they've shown in this area is rather general, and uninspired. And perhaps the experience in the Alpha 1 and upcoming Alpha 2 is completely different, and I hope it is.. But the general basic combat and combat skills we've seen, don't exactly fill me with confidence in terms of adding a pure support (not healing) type of playstyle.
    l8im8pj8upjq.gif


  • SpifSpif Member, Alpha Two
    Support (in my mind this is CC, buffing, debuffing and possibly cleansing/purging) has been spread around, because it makes DPS, Tank and Healer play more interesting.

    I'd say that the highest amount of support I'd like to see in any one class would be what was available to the DAoC bard. A lot of supporty stuff rolled into one class with low damage. BUT, I'd also want to see each piece of that support (speed song, regen songs, resist buffs, CC, off-healing) available as one-offs to other classes.

    This should be pretty easy to do with 64 options

    Also, an example of an over-versatile class would be the DAoC sorc: mana regen, multiple CC's and AE CC's, charm, debuffs, speed chant and mage-level damage
  • ElminElmin Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Here is a cheat sheet for you when looking for a group.

    oyt2snwxg9o2.png
  • SummpwnerSummpwner Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Deleted
  • IskiabIskiab Member, Alpha Two
    Elmin wrote: »
    Here is a cheat sheet for you when looking for a group.

    oyt2snwxg9o2.png

    I'd say that's moreso WoW because they went out of their way to simplify combat mechanics. An example of where it wasn't that way was EQ, where you had lots of roles.

    You had the tank, healer and DPS. You also had a slower who'd slow down mob's attacking speed, otherwise damage would be too much for the healer. You also had a puller who'd bring the mobs to the group.

    The problem with that is you needed too many roles for a functioning group, hence WoW where everything was simplified. Then like you said, it became about 'how good at the Trinity roles are you'.
  • AnagrovAnagrov Member, Alpha Two
    Krulik_SK wrote: »
    In EQ the elite bard would occasionally show up at a raid and things would stop. A few minutes would go by and then suddenly, over the top of some random wall, we would see the main zones boss running behind him as he brought it to the raid to kill. Save the raid 2 hours of trash killing simply because you are amazing at a specific class, that is legendary. Everyone being able to do that? Nope.

    If there is no CC or Support classes, then how do you get any sense of accomplishment? I mean, just because you stand outside the ring, run around a pillar, shoot off the rotation right and the boss dies, doesn't mean that is where the fun is. For me, the fun was always in the social atmosphere of the game, and that required individuality to a degree, and not by cosmetics stores. You had classes that were relied upon to get going, and to win.

    I like support classes that are required in order to make the group/raid happen. Honestly. I don't want the ease of getting home and just grabbing 25 people. Yea, I'm looking for 2 priests to get this raid going and I like that. If we dont get them, the raid is off. Yes. We have enough CC to manage the adds on the entryway of the castle? Good we can proceed. NO!? We'll officers, get to the hub and start calling out, were getting some new members today. (Me in the hub praying for a chance to go raid. "CC looking for raid progression in the HUHIHHJH".... ) Yes. I like this idea. Why?? Because I want to feel the accomplishment when it happens. The dopamine rush will be real, and I won't be oversaturated with it from all the amazing achievements and progress I have done because I mashed a dps button and stood outside the rings.

    Im rambling. Thats me. Im new here. tldr: I like support classes and the old social system of needing them in order to progress in a certain style, be it with more ease, with more dps, with better buffs, etc. I liked having support, because the game was hard and we needed it.

    I like you already!!



  • LeiloniLeiloni Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aerlana wrote: »
    it seems you say that mmorpgs didnt have support . . .
    But i probably misunderstood
    ...
    I hope

    Very few MMO's have support classes.

    Support =/= healer.

    Chanter in Aion was pure support and I hope they model Bard after it. Such a great class.
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Elmin wrote: »
    Here is a cheat sheet for you when looking for a group.

    oyt2snwxg9o2.png

    Hopefully combat in Ashes is more nuanced, but that chart would still work here

    Shield = Tank
    Heal = Healer
    Damage = DPS
    Control = Support (This one was lost to time as weaker versions of its abilities were farmed out to the other three)

    I know some folks are still confused about what we mean by support, so work the idea in reverse.

    Take all the CC and Buff abilities from the other classes you know today and put stronger versions of them on a new class that deals very little damage, and doesn't heal. This class has a very difficult time on its own but becomes deadly in a full group. That is a support class.

    A simplified example but that's the gist.
  • Aces_Are_WildAces_Are_Wild Member, Alpha Two
    I will be a necromancer, I believe they will be a great support class with debuffs and maybe some healing options and a little cc , I also hope they have some aoe spells like skeletons coming out of the ground hitting people then going back under
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