Would like to see revival of Support classes

It may be a bit late in the game to talk about this but, like the title says, I'd love to see true support roles return to MMOs. Current games will have classes that provide a group/raid wide buff or maybe a utility like a temporary run buff, however this is usually just an add-on to another main role. As in a dps class will do slightly less dps in exchange for having a single group enhancement.

What I'm talking about are classes solely dedicated to support and cc. Examples would be EQ2's Illusionist, or SWG's Squad Leader. While the classes did have some combat abilities, these merely supplemented their main role of buff/debuff and crowd control. Their main job was to enhance party members and lock down/distract enemies. The roles really helped expand what a party could handle and a skilled support could save a party from a rough situation even better than a healer.

Just my two cents, I miss the diversity those classes added to the games they were in.

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Kutch

Two roles that I barely, if ever, have seen outside of Everquest:

The monk
Initially a weaponless fighter with the ability to throw himself into the ground pretending to be dead. This made monks ideal for splitting large groups of monsters into more manageable counts for the group. They would antagonize a large group of monsters pull them away from their "base" location, and then "drop dead", having the monsters confused and returning one by one. Once a manageable amount of monsters were left, the monk would jump up and entice the now manageable number of mobs back to its waiting teammates. Eventually, the bard also gained this ability, but boy oh boy was it a unique skill being a "puller" for your group.

The Enchanter
In another rarely seen class outside of Everquest, the enchanter could put many monsters to sleep while the group focussed on killing one at a time. Enchanters also could take control over a nearby animal/monster, something that made them extremely powerful, while being armored like french schoolgirls.

These were just two examples of support classes that were insanely fun to play and that differ from the repeating patterns seen in most of today's MMOs. Not saying "we must have these", but as an idea for the devs to dare to go outside the norm and look at other ways to enrich a party or raid.

JustVine

Kutch wrote: »

Two roles that I barely, if ever, have seen outside of Everquest:

The monk
Initially a weaponless fighter with the ability to throw himself into the ground pretending to be dead. This made monks ideal for splitting large groups of monsters into more manageable counts for the group. They would antagonize a large group of monsters pull them away from their "base" location, and then "drop dead", having the monsters confused and returning one by one. Once a manageable amount of monsters were left, the monk would jump up and entice the now manageable number of mobs back to its waiting teammates. Eventually, the bard also gained this ability, but boy oh boy was it a unique skill being a "puller" for your group.

The Enchanter
In another rarely seen class outside of Everquest, the enchanter could put many monsters to sleep while the group focussed on killing one at a time. Enchanters also could take control over a nearby animal/monster, something that made them extremely powerful, while being armored like french schoolgirls.

These were just two examples of support classes that were insanely fun to play and that differ from the repeating patterns seen in most of today's MMOs. Not saying "we must have these", but as an idea for the devs to dare to go outside the norm and look at other ways to enrich a party or raid.

I guess you have never played ffxi then?

I'd also like to see some of these in game.

Veeshan

I like playing the offensive support class, like they do some dmg but not as much as other DPS classes but they have access to annoy/reduce enemy effectivness via CC or debuff and so on. You general try wittling people down slower and by controlling the fight your weak to healers since they can outheal ur dmg alot of the time but you can manipulate fights to your favor over thre course of the battle

Taaku

I also love playing support classes. Giving buffs to my party members / people I come across in the open world just feels good to me. I personally think the most fun I've had as a support class is a specifically a protection monk in Guild Wars 1. Focusing more on dmg negation and slight healing was just super fun for me.

Orym

@Diamaht Would you prefer if every 8 man party would NEED a support class in their group?
Basically add a fourth role to make it so its 4 roles instead of the "holy trinity" of healer, tank, dps?

I'm personally not a fan of dedicated support classes since I don't see them fit into the trinity system that intrepid is going with and that works so great in many other mmos.

Because why implement a support role that is not really needed in the same way every other role is. If a support class is implementet they should make it so every group NEEDS one the same way every group needs a healer, tank and dps.

Make ashes a quadrinity??

/edit
•Why is is not enough for you(or other support class entusiasts) to spec into a more group buff oriented style on your dps, tank or heal class?
•Is it not enough to need 3 different roles to clear content, you really wanna search for 4 different roles when you wanna do stuff like a dungeon for example?

Depraved

im sure the game will allow you to build a full support, 0 damage character, that everybody will want in their party, but no one will get, since it will be the most underplayed class

kind of like the full support professor in ragnarok online back then

TheDarkSorcerer

Taaku wrote: »

I also love playing support classes. Giving buffs to my party members / people I come across in the open world just feels good to me. I personally think the most fun I've had as a support class is a specifically a protection monk in Guild Wars 1. Focusing more on dmg negation and slight healing was just super fun for me.

MEMORIES!!!

Silkii

I'm loving all the EQ2 references...brings back great memories

Fantmx

I 100% would love to return to these roles. My main class in EQ was an enchanter and I personally enjoyed managing things other than combat and heals.

koltovince

If there are any archetypes who will fall under support it will either be Summoner or bard, with summoner being more a trinity based support and being able to fill any gap the team needs and the bard being more buff or CC based in their support. As for whether they will fall under a true "support class", idk, Closest example in modern MMOs I can think of is Bard/Dancer in FFXIV but even then they are still mostly DPS classes who give more DPS to others.

True support classes just aren't a thing nowadays, and while the old veterans might love to play that old style of gameplay, we have to ask ourselves if the new generation of gamers who have been raised on DPS meters and just slapping people will accept a class that is purely support. Yes, there would be a sizeable population who would love the support class but there would also be that vocal minority asking "why support do no DPS? Bad class!".

Iskiab

Well they have priest and bard listed as support, and the goal they said is to make it optimal to have one class in every group. That leads me to believe priests will be the healers (so newer definition of support) and bards to be the buffers (traditional definition of support).

That's what I'm thinking because if bards and priests both were just healers, why bring both?

Diamaht

Orym wrote: »

@Diamaht Would you prefer if every 8 man party would NEED a support class in their group?
Basically add a fourth role to make it so its 4 roles instead of the "holy trinity" of healer, tank, dps?

I'm personally not a fan of dedicated support classes since I don't see them fit into the trinity system that intrepid is going with and that works so great in many other mmos.

Because why implement a support role that is not really needed in the same way every other role is. If a support class is implementet they should make it so every group NEEDS one the same way every group needs a healer, tank and dps.

Make ashes a quadrinity??

/edit
•Why is is not enough for you(or other support class entusiasts) to spec into a more group buff oriented style on your dps, tank or heal class?
•Is it not enough to need 3 different roles to clear content, you really wanna search for 4 different roles when you wanna do stuff like a dungeon for example?

Not at all, and many games in the past that had support classes didn't require them. I didn't play Ragnatok but games like SWG and EQ had plenty of them and they fit right in without requirement. Remember those were the games that invented the term "holy trinity". It wasnt a quadrinity then and won't be now.

That being said, if a small subset of content was introduced where a support would be essential, I'm all for it. We need wider varieties of content in MMOs.

Krulik_SK

In EQ the elite bard would occasionally show up at a raid and things would stop. A few minutes would go by and then suddenly, over the top of some random wall, we would see the main zones boss running behind him as he brought it to the raid to kill. Save the raid 2 hours of trash killing simply because you are amazing at a specific class, that is legendary. Everyone being able to do that? Nope.

If there is no CC or Support classes, then how do you get any sense of accomplishment? I mean, just because you stand outside the ring, run around a pillar, shoot off the rotation right and the boss dies, doesn't mean that is where the fun is. For me, the fun was always in the social atmosphere of the game, and that required individuality to a degree, and not by cosmetics stores. You had classes that were relied upon to get going, and to win.

I like support classes that are required in order to make the group/raid happen. Honestly. I don't want the ease of getting home and just grabbing 25 people. Yea, I'm looking for 2 priests to get this raid going and I like that. If we dont get them, the raid is off. Yes. We have enough CC to manage the adds on the entryway of the castle? Good we can proceed. NO!? We'll officers, get to the hub and start calling out, were getting some new members today. (Me in the hub praying for a chance to go raid. "CC looking for raid progression in the HUHIHHJH".... ) Yes. I like this idea. Why?? Because I want to feel the accomplishment when it happens. The dopamine rush will be real, and I won't be oversaturated with it from all the amazing achievements and progress I have done because I mashed a dps button and stood outside the rings.

Im rambling. Thats me. Im new here. tldr: I like support classes and the old social system of needing them in order to progress in a certain style, be it with more ease, with more dps, with better buffs, etc. I liked having support, because the game was hard and we needed it.

Summpwner

Krulik_SK wrote: »

If there is no CC or Support classes, then how do you get any sense of accomplishment? I mean, just because you stand outside the ring, run around a pillar, shoot off the rotation right and the boss dies, doesn't mean that is where the fun is. For me, the fun was always in the social atmosphere of the game, and that required individuality to a degree, and not by cosmetics stores. You had classes that were relied upon to get going, and to win

Lol I just wrote everything below and forgot to respond to the quote:
I think the sense of accomplishment comes from the group passing whatever encounter, and them knowing that they might have missed every ability because the enemy blinded them and because of your support abilities, they could hit the enemies again. It's soft, but it would be enough for me to continue playing that role. You don't need the game to give you a cookie for using your skills the way they were designed to be used.

In GW1 there were support skills that might remove conditions or hexes, or slow enemies in an area, or skills to interrupt the enemy, strip their buffs, increase the cast time of enemies, provide extra armor to allies, knocking down foes for others to combo from, increasing the cooldown of the next skill an enemy used, increasing projectile speed (in GW1, slow projectiles could miss if you sidestepped), increasing cooldown speeds of allies, increasing the damage of the next skill an ally uses, etc.

There is a TON of design space for support skills. I could see the High Priest having few skills to remove Curses, while the Cultist or Warlock have several powerful skills to do such a thing. I could see the Knight providing physical defenses to the party while the Nightshield would provide defenses from unholy or darkness or whatever the game will call that.

Depraved

so you guys just wants a support that doesnt heal, and do what exactly?

Diamaht

Depraved wrote: »

so you guys just wants a support that doesnt heal, and do what exactly?

All the things we've described throughout this multipage thread

Depraved

Diamaht wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

so you guys just wants a support that doesnt heal, and do what exactly?

All the things we've described throughout this multipage thread

healing = supporting. and the cleric already has some cc and debuffs

SongRune

Depraved wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

so you guys just wants a support that doesnt heal, and do what exactly?

All the things we've described throughout this multipage thread

healing = supporting. and the cleric already has some cc and debuffs

Healing may be supporting, but supporting isn't automatically healing.

As a Bard, I expect to do relatively little healing, and a LOT of buffing. I should have some regen, but no burst heals. I should have status resistance buffs, but not cleansing abilities. My focus will be on helping my party adapt to the challenges they face, amplifying synergies and covering gaps relative to varying content. Healing is my Cleric's job. If I have to spend my time on that, nobody's doing my job. So if you'll excuse me, I'll be busy reducing the need for healing in the first place.

Depraved

ofc we already have bards and they will most likely be doing all that =D
and summoners will probably be debuffing instead

Diamaht

Unfortunately there are no modern examples. The archetype went away when things became more solo friendly. The best I can say is have a look at the thread, its full of examples from past games.

If it makes it into Ashes you'll see that its a very different playstyle from modern bards and clerics.

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