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Corrupted State and how to hide it

DreikDreik Member, Alpha Two
I have been looking into Player Death and Player Flagging.
I have came to conclusion beeing corrupted is a huge burden at the moment. Not only does your death affects you way more than regular player (which is fine) but it bars you from many activities. Therefore there should be a way to even temporarily hide your corrupted state, for a right price of course.
For example high cost consumable that would hide your corrupted state for up to 2 hours or until you exit node(city) you first walk into.
Another way could be some Epic or Legendary items that could hide your status with active ability.

On the other hand it would be a nice if you could see through disguise somehow. As a priest you could cast "Detect Evil" or something.
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Comments

  • Too complicated.

    Death is the only ending for the corrupted. Either their own, or a couple of monsters' as a redeeming act – really no need to invite a mess of more features.
  • The corruption mechanic tries to make PvE and PvP players to share the same area. And call them PvX.
    If that doesn't work, then the game becomes either PvP or PvE.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    I've got a better suggestion to hide the corruption. It's called "don't kill people who don't fight back" B)
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Dreik wrote: »
    Not only does your death affects you way more than regular player (which is fine) but it bars you from many activities. Therefore there should be a way to even temporarily hide your corrupted state, for a right price of course.
    Not being able to participate in specific activities is as much a part of the penalty for corruption as enhanced death penalties is.

    If you have corruption and want to participate in said activity, get rid of your corruption.
  • Corruption won't be a problem if you don't force PvP on a player who doesn't want it. Like other people have said: there's no need to hide corruption if you haven't got any.
  • I think crafting a hooded-mantle which can hide your name, general appearance and status (corrupt or not) would be cool but like others have said, I doubt corruption will be an actual problem.

    It will almost always be nothing more than a safeguard against killing lower lvl players or camping people (toxic behaviour) and such.
  • DreikDreik Member, Alpha Two
    edited September 2022
    Well game is supposed to host various factions. What if one of these factions are The Others and they would wage war on The Seven or just Goddess of Creation? Their quests could involve beeing corrupted. If a game is supposed to be PvX and we have hunting grounds killing other players shouldn't be considered griefing but just part of hars life across Verra.
  • AerlanaAerlana Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    remember that to get to corrupted state, you have to kill a "non combattant" (green) character, which don't fight back. if the character defend itself, he turns purple (combattant) and you won't get corrupted.

    With a ttK around 30+ seconds, you will easily define if he fight back or no... and be able to decide if it is worth to get corrupted (and have to clean few monsters asap) or not
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited September 2022
    Dreik wrote: »
    Well game is supposed to host various factions. What if one of these factions are The Others and they would wage war on The Seven or just Goddess of Creation? Their quests could involve beeing corrupted. If a game is supposed to be PvX and we have hunting grounds killing other players shouldn't be considered griefing but just part of hars life across Verra.
    Being corrupted is not meant as a gameplay style. As Aerlana said, getting corruption means killing a green player who didn't fight back and Intrepid doesn't want to promote that kind of gameplay.

    And I don't think we've heard anything about getting quests from the story's antagonists. This is not alliance vs horde or smth like that, where there's 2 sides that players can participate in.

    edit: double-checked and Steven has said there'll be quests on the "darker side" that will be related to The Others, but with 0 concrete info on what exactly that entails. But if those quests do in fact make players go corrupt, I sure as hell gonna give feedback against those cause they'll be one hell of a slippery slope.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/The_Ancients#Religion
  • TyrazaphaelTyrazaphael Member, Alpha Two
    Dreik wrote: »
    I have been looking into Player Death and Player Flagging.
    I have came to conclusion beeing corrupted is a huge burden at the moment. Not only does your death affects you way more than regular player (which is fine) but it bars you from many activities. Therefore there should be a way to even temporarily hide your corrupted state, for a right price of course.
    For example high cost consumable that would hide your corrupted state for up to 2 hours or until you exit node(city) you first walk into.
    Another way could be some Epic or Legendary items that could hide your status with active ability.

    On the other hand it would be a nice if you could see through disguise somehow. As a priest you could cast "Detect Evil" or something.

    No. Just no. Respectfully.

    That's the point of the system. If you grief people, you get corrupted. It means you weighed the risk and consequences of corruption and decided it was worth it to murder someone else, take their belongings, and take the corruption shot on the chin. Otherwise, you kill people worth a lot of money, buy your high cost consumable and just keep playing as normal. It shouldn't fund it's own perpetuity.
  • DreikDreik Member, Alpha Two
    If the whole system is just punishing corruption why even bother with open world PvP? It doesn't make sense. Just make the game full PvE and PvP Event Based. Turn on PvP only in vicinity of caravans or during node sieges.

    And why couldn't it sustain itself on killin people. Its not like its omnipotent tool and people may still know your name from bounty boards so bounty hunters can still kill you can claim bounty. It doesn't REMOVE your corruption state, just hides it.

    And why darker side wouldn't work against humanity? Making "evil" the others side available for players imho makes game more immersive.
  • Dreik wrote: »
    If the whole system is just punishing corruption why even bother with open world PvP? It doesn't make sense. Just make the game full PvE and PvP Event Based. Turn on PvP only in vicinity of caravans or during node sieges.
    The corruption real intention is to make players shoot each other, to see if they want to PvP or not.
    Gatherers love that feeling. Don't kill them, just shoot while they gather.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Dreik wrote: »
    If the whole system is just punishing corruption why even bother with open world PvP? It doesn't make sense. Just make the game full PvE and PvP Event Based. Turn on PvP only in vicinity of caravans or during node sieges.

    And why couldn't it sustain itself on killin people. Its not like its omnipotent tool and people may still know your name from bounty boards so bounty hunters can still kill you can claim bounty. It doesn't REMOVE your corruption state, just hides it.

    Corruption is there to provide players agency while still limiting their genocidal tendencies. And those limit are supposed to be enforced not only by the BHs, but by other green players too. And if you hide your corrupted status, you're literally avoiding punishment.
    Dreik wrote: »
    And why darker side wouldn't work against humanity? Making "evil" the others side available for players imho makes game more immersive.
    It's not about working against humanity. It's about encouraging and rewarding murder of green players. It would be quite illogical to say "we don't condone that, but allow you to do it if you want" and then follow that up with a "here's rewards and quests that explicitly tell you to go kill a dude".
  • Dreik wrote: »
    And why darker side wouldn't work against humanity? Making "evil" the others side available for players imho makes game more immersive.

    I think I've seen on wiki that there will be no factions. To allow players to fight for the dark side, would mean to add dedicated classes, nodes maybe... so it would be a two sided fight.
    As it is now, eveybody fights everybody.
    There can be maximum 5 metropolises over a large pvp ocean. So things are not exactly peaceful.
    Just don't attack neutral players who are your citizens. Attack the ones from another metropolis. That might cause a war and then there will be no corruption penalties between the sides in war.
    Node governments may declare war on another node and rally citizens to the cause.[1]

    This mutually flags the citizens of the warring nodes, including their allies, as combatants
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member, Alpha Two
    @Dreik

    To summarize the replies in thread so far:

    - Corruption only happens when you attack and kill another player that doesn’t fight back. If the other player fights back, there’s no corruption penalty.

    - Corruption is not meant to be an enjoyable state for the player-character … hiding or “disguising” corruption only rewards the player for their misdeeds. In other words, don’t grief players if you don’t want the corruption penalty.

    - As far as I’ve read in the Wiki, there isn’t any relationship between corrupted areas of the environment and player-character corruption. We may find out differently as more gameplay evolves in Alpha 2 and Beta. But right now, the two aren’t related.
  • DreikDreik Member, Alpha Two
    edited September 2022
    Looking at all these arguments my conclusion is simple. There is no need for bounty hunters since there will be no bounties.
    There is no real incentive to kill players or be "evil". Since there is no evil there is no good. Well its ruins my experience.
    There is no real need for open PVP then. Just lock it behind wars etc...

    Also since corrupted state isn't really prologned or lived by state. You can very easily abuse killing people.
    Kill -> get resources -> give items to a friends -> let others kill you so you don't lose them -> stop corruption
    Rinse and repeat abuse the system...

    On the other hand if there are quests/factions that require you to be corrupted it is incentive to NOT GET KILLED.
  • AerlanaAerlana Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    your fear is that everyone will stay green, and won't fight back because it is safer ...

    But, if you have 5 or 10 minutes travel to return to your farming point, you could consider to defend yourself... those 5-10 min lost are already a penalty of this death after all.

    The penalty the game inflect on purple player for death is 50% the one for green players... (loss of materials, etc). So there is benefits to be purple while farming some mobs, and killing purple (even if they don't fight back) gives no corruption.


    Corruption is for a specific case : people who don't want to defend themselves... the green people being afk, and the green people that are so weak in front of you that you kill them so fast you can't even stop before seeing they don't fight back...
    On each of those 3 cases : where is the fun ? ... I have no fun killing anyone freely, there is PvE for this.
    But some people are quite braindead and love such behaviour, just remember all those spawncamping on various game... The corruption is for them
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Dreik wrote: »
    Looking at all these arguments my conclusion is simple. There is no need for bounty hunters since there will be no bounties.
    There is no real incentive to kill players or be "evil". Since there is no evil there is no good. Well its ruins my experience.
    There is no real need for open PVP then. Just lock it behind wars etc...
    Yes, the BH system is the weakest one of the so far presented ones, imo.

    The incentive to kill other players is their resources and the lucrative farming location that they refuse to leave otherwise. And in order to remove them from said location you'll need open world pvp. And if normal death penalties are high enough, that player will either run away to avoid them or will risk losing a chunk of their resources in hopes that the corruption will fuck up their attacker. But the ultimate goal of removal will be achieved either way.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Dreik wrote: »
    Kill -> get resources -> give items to a friends -> let others kill you so you don't lose them -> stop corruption
    Rinse and repeat abuse the system...
    You can't trade as a corrupted player. And even outside of that, the main penalty of dying as a Red is the XP debt and gear decay.

    Also, you won't be able to just keep killing people because each new PK will bring you deeper into corruption and make you die more times with each kill, which will decrease your character's combat prowess, ruin your gear and obviously ruin your reputation on the server (or at the very least the node).

    And corrupted players respawn in random locations so it's not like your friends will always be the one to kill you. Which means that there's a chance that your dropped gear will go towards a BH or a passing green player instead of to your friends.
  • DreikDreik Member, Alpha Two
    I meant it more like Guilds could abuse it very easily having multiple people waiting to kill you in a spots.
    If open world pvp is meant to fight for grinding spots its easier to just not fight for one and make others corrupted ? I don't think getting corrupted will ever be good trade for a grind spot.

    Now that I think of it if corrupted player is in a very strong guild he can walk scot free since you don't want a guild to gang on you for killing their player. So whole corrupted system is just flawed..
    Atm I don't really see a reason for open world PvP , like really none. It would be better to make players more cooperative. Just give them incentive to make bigger parties than solo grinding. Extra exp for extra players in party etc so there would be less fights for grind spots.
  • Dreik wrote: »
    If open world pvp is meant to fight for grinding spots its easier to just not fight for one and make others corrupted ? I don't think getting corrupted will ever be good trade for a grind spot.

    what grinding spots?
    The game will have no grinding they say
    Repetition will not be part of progression in Ashes of Creation.[34]

    There will be no "grindy" quests.[34]
    There will not be repetitive quest lines through a single dungeon to obtain gear.[35]
    The aspiration is to have more things to do in the game than a player has time to do.[34]
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Dreik wrote: »
    It would be better to make players more cooperative. Just give them incentive to make bigger parties than solo grinding. Extra exp for extra players in party etc so there would be less fights for grind spots.
    The game is already party-based. There won't be many places to solo grind and they will definitely not be very lucrative. Most farming locations will be taken over by guilds that will most likely be at war with each other, so corruption won't even apply there.

    But again, the corruption system is there to provide agency. You wanna kill someone for whatever reason? Go and do it, but know that there might be consequences.

    Open world pvp is there for people to pvp in the open world. Simple as that. This exact system worked just fine in Lineage 2 and I'm fairly sure it'll work just fine in Ashes as well.
  • DreikDreik Member, Alpha Two
    I don't know. I just want everything to have a purpose to be consistent and not just be there BECAUSE..
  • StreviStrevi Member
    edited September 2022
    Whenever I see NiKr saying it worked fine in L2, all my fears vanish. :smiley:
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • DreikDreik Member, Alpha Two
    It didn't work in old Tibia, the mass genocides were terrible and death..so many deaths on exp spots.
  • StreviStrevi Member
    edited September 2022
    Depends how is balanced. The wiki say nothing about it.
    We do not know what percent of resources is being dropped when a player is killed.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Strevi wrote: »
    Whenever I see NiKr saying it worked fine in L2, all my fears vanish. :smiley:
    There's always a chance that I'm just a boomer who got no idea about what da zoomers will do in this game :D Everything and anything can always be fucked up so stay vigilant until several months after the release. And if the game stays "alive" then - we're golden B)
    Dreik wrote: »
    It didn't work in old Tibia, the mass genocides were terrible and death..so many deaths on exp spots.
    Which is exactly why the corruption system is there. That is literally it's purpose - to stop genocide of innocent people. You'll still see genocide of warring guilds, but that's how it should be.
  • DreikDreik Member, Alpha Two
    I still think it would be cool if you could work for Others and corruption would work like anti reputation system. And beeing about to work with lets say Orks triggering event in which orks attack node making you villain :)
  • Dreik wrote: »
    I still think it would be cool if you could work for Others and corruption would work like anti reputation system. And beeing about to work with lets say Orks triggering event in which orks attack node making you villain :)

    Seems cool but I want first to see the game released. Then an expansion may add that too. They have to bring new things after release and if this makes sense, can be added.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited September 2022
    Dreik wrote: »
    I still think it would be cool if you could work for Others and corruption would work like anti reputation system. And beeing about to work with lets say Orks triggering event in which orks attack node making you villain :)
    I'm all for doing stuff for the antagonists. I'm against it being linked or in any way related to corruption.
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