How should AoC deal with streamers/youtubers uploading DPS parsing videos using 3rd party programs?

Would that be a bannable offense?
I believe that it should. It would promote the message that IS doesnt want people to relly on DPS proofs as tool to decline people from joining a group or guild.

Content creators would have to do without DPS programs.

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Strevi

Sathrago wrote: »

I think the rabbit hole people are digging just fell into a bottomless cavern. When the OP says third party programs/addons, he is talking about a program that is run on your computer that specifically interacts with the game in a way that makes the game easier to play or otherwise adjusts how it is played. Be it automatically collecting information or running a macro to automate certain features.
These things are not allowed according to steven. Full stop. There is also a pretty big precedence for this in ff14 where they can't really scan your computer for all third party programs as that would be invasion of privacy/impossible to really sort out as you guys seem to be claiming.

How do those anti-cheat protections work? Don't they scan what runs on your PC?

Sathrago wrote: »

However, videos and streams are not private. They are in the public for all to see, and viable proof when determining if a person is using a 3rd party addon or not with a small amount of research on the GM's side of things.
It is not healthy for the game for such people to get away with blatantly advertising these addons/programs, and I believe the correct action is to ban players who would display these things in such a public way.

Ideally the devs will take a stance of, "no proof no action." As long as you use these 3rd party addons within your own space and do not make videos or streams or advertisements for them, i believe you should be "safe" to use them. Obviously at this point its up to the 3rd party creator to develop programs that the gamemasters cannot detect accurately. So do with that what you will.

If those programs help players, developers will see the improved performance, that players are too good.

Azherae

Strevi wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

I think the rabbit hole people are digging just fell into a bottomless cavern. When the OP says third party programs/addons, he is talking about a program that is run on your computer that specifically interacts with the game in a way that makes the game easier to play or otherwise adjusts how it is played. Be it automatically collecting information or running a macro to automate certain features.
These things are not allowed according to steven. Full stop. There is also a pretty big precedence for this in ff14 where they can't really scan your computer for all third party programs as that would be invasion of privacy/impossible to really sort out as you guys seem to be claiming.

How do those anti-cheat protections work? Don't they scan what runs on your PC?

Sathrago wrote: »

However, videos and streams are not private. They are in the public for all to see, and viable proof when determining if a person is using a 3rd party addon or not with a small amount of research on the GM's side of things.
It is not healthy for the game for such people to get away with blatantly advertising these addons/programs, and I believe the correct action is to ban players who would display these things in such a public way.

Ideally the devs will take a stance of, "no proof no action." As long as you use these 3rd party addons within your own space and do not make videos or streams or advertisements for them, i believe you should be "safe" to use them. Obviously at this point its up to the 3rd party creator to develop programs that the gamemasters cannot detect accurately. So do with that what you will.

If those programs help players, developers will see the improved performance, that players are too good.

You definitely shouldn't ban players for being 'too good'. This never ends well. The community backlash is almost always largely negative, because 'too good' is subjective.

There's not enough stuff that you can claim 'a human can't do' with enough certainty, so you'd be targeting people based on skill alone. It's a pretty bad look all around.

Strevi

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

If I'll buy a robot, more advanced than those from Boston Dynamics, which can do anything a human can, how will MMOs make their games? The grind and challenging fights?
And will they ban my robot?

Actually I believe they could, in fact, ban your robot, in a very roundabout way (banning your account because you let your robot play for you on that account obviously, but beyond that too).

But 'Third Party Programs' clauses in Terms usually outline specific things that the Third Party Program is not allowed to do in ways that affect the game client (and some MMOs have been trying to also assert 'cannot intercept nor affect the data sent between the server and the client).

So obviously anyone who used anything that hooks into the Client or the Networking protocols in any way that can change it, is violating that type of ToS, and people who don't, aren't violating that section and need to be banned for some other reason (assuming they don't just ban for nothing, which they CAN do)

Intrepid would just need to come up with that 'some other reason', because it's easier to do that than worry about any legal situations from 'bans without reason'.

I am sure robots will be able to simulate that they are tired, confused, scared, undecided and illogical...
But overall they could play the repetitive content which usually players don't want to do, but MMO developers insist implementing them.
For example we used to have a lot of vertical leveling. Now the horizontal leveling is more common.
But why there is leveling? Why don't we start with level 50 so players can do PvP from the very beginning instead of being forced into PvE quests 45 days?
I don't mean the robot should play the raids too which is actually the interesting content.

Azherae

Strevi wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

If I'll buy a robot, more advanced than those from Boston Dynamics, which can do anything a human can, how will MMOs make their games? The grind and challenging fights?
And will they ban my robot?

Actually I believe they could, in fact, ban your robot, in a very roundabout way (banning your account because you let your robot play for you on that account obviously, but beyond that too).

But 'Third Party Programs' clauses in Terms usually outline specific things that the Third Party Program is not allowed to do in ways that affect the game client (and some MMOs have been trying to also assert 'cannot intercept nor affect the data sent between the server and the client).

So obviously anyone who used anything that hooks into the Client or the Networking protocols in any way that can change it, is violating that type of ToS, and people who don't, aren't violating that section and need to be banned for some other reason (assuming they don't just ban for nothing, which they CAN do)

Intrepid would just need to come up with that 'some other reason', because it's easier to do that than worry about any legal situations from 'bans without reason'.

I am sure robots will be able to simulate that they are tired, confused, scared, undecided and illogical...
But overall they could play the repetitive content which usually players don't want to do, but MMO developers insist implementing them.
For example we used to have a lot of vertical leveling. Now the horizontal leveling is more common.
But why there is leveling? Why don't we start with level 50 so players can do PvP from the very beginning instead of being forced into PvE quests 45 days?
I don't mean the robot should play the raids too which is actually the interesting content.

That's a derail, but I think I can push it back.

So, mostly, Leveling in TableTop is for roleplay advancement and specialization. Then it started to be just for RP advancement in some games, and just for Specialization in other games.

Now, back to DPS and banning, if you have complex content, then your 'DPS' vs that content isn't directly based on build, it's based on specialization and ability to read situations, but some people still want to measure it and show off (in a group game, killing something slower or faster isn't always an indicator that YOU are playing well enough, so some people parse their performance to check or prove it).

If you create a bot to 'do the thing you normally do' and use it as a baseline check, and then make a video about it that shows how your bot works or talks about what your robot is doing, you've said "I don't care about rules relative to botting."

If you "do the thing you normally do" repeatedly yourself but you have a third party hook installed and make a video showing this off, you've said "I don't care about messing with or modifying the game client."

So Intrepid would probably take action.

GrandHarfang

Neurath wrote: »

An operating system is not a program. We used to work off msdos which was direct command lines to the computer. Windows gives direct command lines to the computer because its a operating system.

You can call Windows software but you can't call Windows a program. A program can't run without an operating system or command interface. I haven't used emulators for some years but the emulators allowed Nintendo games, Sega games, PlayStation games and xbox games all to be run from a Windows operating system.

Of course, in this day and age the Microsoft aspects are more integrated. So no need for an emulator. However, none of those older emulators ran Windows - they ran the console operating system. You couldn't just install an operating system to the same hard drive or an operating system on an operating system.

Ashes is a program with a Windows requirement so windows can't be considered a third party program.

Edit: cut off response

Your definition of what a program is is completely erronous. I program for a living on computers that have no OS.

Unfortunately I recognize this is out of topic so I will not elaborate further.

Hinotori

Sathrago wrote: »

I think the rabbit hole people are digging just fell into a bottomless cavern. When the OP says third party programs/addons, he is talking about a program that is run on your computer that specifically interacts with the game in a way that makes the game easier to play or otherwise adjusts how it is played. Be it automatically collecting information or running a macro to automate certain features.
These things are not allowed according to steven. Full stop. There is also a pretty big precedence for this in ff14 where they can't really scan your computer for all third party programs as that would be invasion of privacy/impossible to really sort out as you guys seem to be claiming.
However, videos and streams are not private. They are in the public for all to see, and viable proof when determining if a person is using a 3rd party addon or not with a small amount of research on the GM's side of things.
It is not healthy for the game for such people to get away with blatantly advertising these addons/programs, and I believe the correct action is to ban players who would display these things in such a public way.

Ideally the devs will take a stance of, "no proof no action." As long as you use these 3rd party addons within your own space and do not make videos or streams or advertisements for them, i believe you should be "safe" to use them. Obviously at this point its up to the 3rd party creator to develop programs that the gamemasters cannot detect accurately. So do with that what you will.

Don't bring sense into this. It's getting good. Give everyone another hour or two and society will crumble and we'll be following whoever holds the conch.

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

Hmm further proof of irrelevance and pointlessness as, expected.
Keep talking about windows as if it has anything to do with 3rd pt bannable programs.

GREAT input. "Windows is a program."

I mean, you can be as facetious as you like, you are the one that introduces the concept of third party programs being ban-able to this thread.

I simply pointed out to you how blatantly wrong you were with that comment, and now you have changed it to "third party ban-able programs".

If you wish to talk about people using third party ban-able programs, cool. Let's start off by defining that the only thing Intrepid are able to ban are programs that DIRECTLY interact with the game. If a combat tracker can be produced that does not DIRECTLY interact with the game, it can not be on that list of ban-able third party programs.

An example of this is a program that uses screen capture (Xsplit, as an example) to obtain data. This is an easy thing for an average player to set up if they wish Github has everything you need.

Once you have obtained that data, it is yours to do with as you see fit.

The only part of that Intrepid have any control of is the screen capture aspect. The only way they can ban this whole thing happening is to ban the screen capture aspect of it.

That means no videos on YouTube, no streaming, no nothing.

So, in your example in the OP, either the streamer is banned for recording a video,or no one is banned because no one did anything against the ToS.

Ludullu

Ahh, I can already see the future 170+++ pages of nonsensical pointless arguments about nothing and everything

DPS megathread 2: meter boogaloo

George_Black

NiKr wrote: »

Ahh, I can already see the future 170+++ pages on nonsensical pointless arguments about nothing and everything DPS megathread 2: meter boogaloo

No. I dont come back to my topics to revive meaningless back and forth. Short and to the point. The only exceptions were the "dailies gameplay" and "login rewards" megathreads.

George_Black

Noanni you would drown in a tablespoon of water.
You should be able to link "3rd pt programs" to a topic regarding dps tracker, with "bannable", without falling in a rabbit hole of nonsense.
Ima start calling you Alice from now on.

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

Noanni you would drown in a tablespoon of water.
You should be able to link "3rd pt programs" to a topic regarding dps tracker, with "bannable", without falling in a rabbit hole of nonsense.
Ima start calling you Alice from now on.

I've told you before, if you say inaccurate things on these forums, I will call you out literally every single time.

Your comment that all third party programs are ban-able is just outright incorrect. Being third party or not dose not factor in to this at all. If it did, I could just distribute code for users to compile themselves, making that a second party program (first party is Intrepid, second party is the user agreeing to the ToS, third party is anyone else). Cant claim someone is using a third party program if they compiled it themself.

If you want to discuss a topic (especially one you know I will get involved in), start off by getting your terminology correct.

Any given program is only able to be ban-able based on how it interacts with Intrepids software. What the software itself does has no consequence at all as to whether Intrepid can ban you for using it or not - only how it interacts with the game matters.

As such, in your suggestion in the OP, you have not shown that the streamer posting the "95k DPS" video did anything at all against the rules.

Even if they showed ACT (or similar) running, that isnt a ban-able offence because ACT literally doesnt interact with the client software at all. As such, it literally can not be against any rules set by Intrepid (and both uses of the word "literally" here are used in their literal meaning).

As such, the most appropriate thing to do would be to say something along the lines of "nice DPS bro".

I want to take this opportunity to point out to you that you seem to not have even bothered to try and back tour own claims in this thread up.

Mag7spy

Trackers /dps meters should be banned instantly if it is clear someone is using it no matter who it is.

Also should be clear that will be their stance on things., If you bring valid proof a guild is doing that, they all should be banned for the ones using the programs if the proof is clear. Video, pictures, text and voice of people admitting to using it.

No leeway just instant ban. And if they want to appeal let them try.

Mag7spy

Including members using ACT of course

Aerlana

Lawfull people are the funniest : they hope that inaccurate rule is enough... but inaccurate rules are even worst because if you go on a topic with rules, what is not forbidden is not forbidden... at all... entirely.

Do you really think that the ToS of the game can forbid me what i do on my computer while the game is closed ? no. If the ToS allow me to register my game session, then i can just close the game, and... parse the registered file.
ToS could need to say what you can do with screen captures... ... ... Would be really fun to read it... (and in fact, i am not even sure it would be possible to do such ToS )

Strevi

Aerlana wrote: »

Lawfull people are the funniest :

Nah, in Baldur's Gate 1&2, the chaotic evil had better humor.
Having them in the same party with the good ones caused a good show

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Trackers /dps meters should be banned instantly if it is clear someone is using it no matter who it is.

Also should be clear that will be their stance on things., If you bring valid proof a guild is doing that, they all should be banned for the ones using the programs if the proof is clear. Video, pictures, text and voice of people admitting to using it.

No leeway just instant ban. And if they want to appeal let them try.

Cant ban it unless it is directly interacting with the game software in a way that is specifically against the ToS.

However, I agree that people breaking valid rules should have some form of action taken on their account.

Noaani

Aerlana wrote: »

Lawfull people are the funniest : they hope that inaccurate rule is enough... but inaccurate rules are even worst because if you go on a topic with rules, what is not forbidden is not forbidden... at all... entirely.

The great thing about inaccurate/ambiguous language in a contract is that if it is indeed ambiguous, it is essentially required that any decision go against the party that wrote the contract.

You dont go in arguing the meaning, you go in arguing if the meaning is ambiguous or not - and if it is deemed even remotely ambiguous, there is nothing left to argue.

This is why I have said many times on these forums that if Intrepid want to ban trackers, they need to specify exactly what interaction with the client software they will not allow, and have that written in to the ToS.

BaSkA_9x2

I'm actually not sure if this is a troll post. It doesn't matter what a/any 3rd party program does, what it matters is if it's against ToS or not. If a 3rd party program that adds a crosshair is against ToS, then people caught using it will get banned. The same goes for a DPS meter, a macro, a bot, an auto-fisher, etc.

So, really, this is stupid simple: is said/any 3rd party program against ToS? If yes, then people who get caught using said/any program will get get punished accordingly, it doesn't matter how Intrepid finds out anyone was using said program, streamer or not, every player must be equal towards the game's rules.

I'm not even going to worry about the DPS meters subject because 1: I couldn't care less and 2: Intrepid's decision won't change because of what I say or feel.

Strevi

BaSkA13 wrote: »

I'm not even going to worry about the DPS meters subject because 1: I couldn't care less and 2: Intrepid's decision won't change because of what I say or feel.

I agree with this part

BaSkA13 wrote: »

I'm actually not sure if this is a troll post. It doesn't matter what a/any 3rd party program does, what it matters is if it's against ToS or not. If a 3rd party program that adds a crosshair is against ToS, then people caught using it will get banned. The same goes for a DPS meter, a macro, a bot, an auto-fisher, etc.

So, really, this is stupid simple: is said/any 3rd party program against ToS? If yes, then people who get caught using said/any program will get get punished accordingly, it doesn't matter how Intrepid finds out anyone was using said program, streamer or not, every player must be equal towards the game's rules.

Regarding this I would say that there is also intention behind the ToS. If the intention is stated and understood then even if you glue some sticks onto your screen to have a cross-hair you act against the intention of how developers designed and meant the game to be played.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Trackers /dps meters should be banned instantly if it is clear someone is using it no matter who it is.

Also should be clear that will be their stance on things., If you bring valid proof a guild is doing that, they all should be banned for the ones using the programs if the proof is clear. Video, pictures, text and voice of people admitting to using it.

No leeway just instant ban. And if they want to appeal let them try.

Cant ban it unless it is directly interacting with the game software in a way that is specifically against the ToS.

However, I agree that people breaking valid rules should have some form of action taken on their account.

They can ban for any reason you aren't safe.

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