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Projectile Gravity Physics
LordBlank
Member
Should arrows be able to fall down to the ground when shot blindly while in action mode or should projectiles just disappear while traveling in mid-air? If arrows do have a gravity effect on them then should arrows be able to fall down after being shot in the air? For example, IF a long bow can travel a max of 30 meters horizontally before hitting the ground. Then if a player shoots up into the air/vertically, it should be able to go 30 meters or less. I'm fine with arrows or other range attacks going half the distance when shot in the air. So if player 1 is hiding behind a rock, player 2(while in action mode) should be able to shoot an arrow vertically at an angle where the arrow goes up in the air above the rock and come back down hitting player 1? This would be a skill shot even if there is a soft lock in action mode since player 2 wouldn't be aiming directly at player 1. The action combat range players that wanted a new world like gameplay gets an edge with a high skill ceiling that won't be over powered and over used.
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Ashes' various systems would probably be ABLE to handle this, but honestly, by the time 'gravity' comes into play in this way, 'range' would probably have been exceeded.
we don't know what the max range is in action mode when you can free fire and it would matter because you can just have it hit the ground before going out of range. The arrow doesn't have to go into orbit. it can be slightly higher than that air shot ability or twice the height. If an archer can hit targets on the walls during a siege then I think it's fine to add a gravity effect that activates once the arrow travels a certain distance. Do you remember Apocalypse and all the other battles in alpha 1?
No, Its not a sim, its not a FPS its a MMO.
Fixed range works. You suggestion Its like saying hey lets make melee have to aim at which point of the body & if they go to low they do no damage ~ Doesn't make sense does it in a game Genre where the literal idea is to kill & grind mobs/players.
Hell lets make melee skill based you need to guitar hero you life out to land the blow. ~ Doesn't make sense does it in a game Genre where the literal idea is to kill & grind mobs/players.
Seriously NW players go back & read the patch note changes since release. You will see why it failed. Go back about 2 months ruffly & watch the dev report they explain why the ranger class is messed up & why they can't fix it (tl:DR FPS without lock on & arrow drop VS FPS lock on & no very limited drop). Which all could of been avoided by not listening to people & just thinking for themselves, Thankfully Intrepid did, I also appreciate they dropped the Bless online ranger skills from pre alpha 1 - You all should to.
I do. What I'm saying is something different, sorry.
Ashes seems to tend to be realistic when special magical effects are not being used. MineCraft, one of the few games where this actually comes up often, is NOT trying to be realistic, but it is trying to be an effective game with this mechanic, which makes it 'sort of realistic'.
Arrows lose their power the longer they fly, so at some point, velocity and damage calculations have to happen along with the gravity effects, and those effects happen immediately from the moment they fire. Ashes would also have to change the damage of the arrow based on how far it flew, for this to 'make sense', but it's easier to just 'cut off the range' so that you don't have to worry about an actual 'arrow rain' when calculating for your various methods of resolving latency.
So I was never saying 'this couldn't be done', or 'this isn't realistic' or anything like that. Just that 'games that do this' tend to be more precise/action oriented than Ashes as a baseline and therefore build in all the calculations for this (however they want it to work) from the beginning, as MineCraft does.
If they want to add 'DPS falloff by velocity' to untargeted arrows, I'm not gonna be complaining.
Except I'm not. My argument is this since we have sieges, archers and other range projectile abilities should be able to shoot targets on top of the wall within a certain range. In the recent video, Steeven said while in action mode players can free-aim bows. Should bows travel forever? If not should they just disappear mid-air? I don't think so that is kinda immersion breaking and if you say that's a dumb argument just remember that Steven isn't letting us match colors purely for immersion. Now since immersion is a valid argument why not let the arrow and range abilities fall to the ground after a certain range limit? Now if projectiles do have a range limit and fall to the ground, why can't players use their longbow range to mage basic attack range to shoot into the air? If a long bow for example can shoot up to 20 meters, why can't shoot my longbow up in the air 2 meters and have it fall back down? The argument you are making sounds like a tab target player who doesn't want action combat people to have anything. BTW it doesn't need to be an fps to add a gravity mechanic.
When you said you do I'm assuming you know what the max range is. Would you like to tell me? Do you play tab target? Your argument isn't even making sense. Nowhere did I say add aim assist or even at a projectile line to make it easy. Your argument makes it sound like you are scared of people with more skills than you so you want to eliminate the possibility of it happening. Ashes set a baseline for this with Apocalypse. And again I'm not saying anything about changing the hybrid system that we already have and was recently shown. I'm saying add a gravity effect so arrows fall down and don't travel forever or disappear midair which is weird. You're not making logical arguments against it. It just sounds emotional. MMOs are this way there for we can't and shouldn't add anything new. Why not just play WoW if you don't want change and new mechanics?
I don't know how you got any of that from what I said, but ok.
I'll disengage, I can't even tell what it is that I said that made you shift to 'me being scared of people with more skills than me' and the 'not wanting change' and all that.
can you please state your reason clearly then other than the fact that MMOs were a certain way and we can't add new machines because change is bad? If you reread what you said that's what your argument sounded like. God forbid we take an interesting mechanic from other games. We can't do that at all. Yet other games steal ideas from MMORPG and add their own spin on it and those genres grow larger with younger audiences.
You overstate the difficulty of adding it in. The difficulty is in doing it at all with CPU optimization server-side I am guessing; optimizations beyond baseline is only half of it. If they can use cache and approximations efficiently then it should be easy to design the network-side of it.
On the contrary, it will be very distracting if I saw an arrow coming towards me and then it just disappears mid air because I was half a foot outside of some theoretical range. It is something to look forward for testing in Alpha 2.
Oh God no. 100ft is way too long for what I want. I was thinking a max of 50ft best case scenario. We know that you have to be within a certain range to use some abilities so why not add a drop of range where the arrow just falls down. I don't want archers to be shooter super far off but a good distance is good. Also this would be effected by they type of bows, mostly long bows. Increase the long bow draw time a bit and make them a little more rooted the longer the bow is drawn.
A simple example, if you want to able to shoot arrows pass through castle/city wall etc in sieges or city wars simply make ranger's ultimate skill or siege skill able to shoot that far as a ground target AOE skill.
I just don't understand why people so hunger to make games so difficult and so hard to enter.
And few more things, that bow length don't really make draw time different mainly the draw feeling and the torque changing while drawing back, but the bow type and design and the brace height and the safe max draw length and how much over draw you want will effect the draw time when compare short medium long bows, and most long bow user don't draw over 29 inches(I assume when you guys say long bow means British long bow, if not long bow most have 30~34 max draw, but it's doesn't means short and medium bow can't shot far than long bow.) as I know because not every bow was designed to like the further you draw back the more power get from the bow, and average archer able to hit the target in 50 meters at least I can and I won't consider I am a good archer, last thing archer can shoot while running even it's a long bow.
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
a drop off after the distance makes sense when shooting straight forward, but what if you shot up at an angle. the arc will be higher and the arrow will go much further. What if you shoot up in an arc from the top of a building or wall (add even more distance)? Also, war bows from history can send arrows up to 100 yards (300 feet) and further.
As I know in flight archery record a war bow class can easily pass 300 yards and the top tier is around 400 to 500 yards may be over 600 yards, and to shoot over 100 yards with flight archery you don't need war bow class bow, a 30lb bow will easy do it.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
I never said it was supposed to be something everyone can do. It's supposed to be something that skilled players can do. I'm talking about all basic range action mode attacks can use projectile motion/arcs. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
Yes, that is what I want. I don't know what ranges they would want to do in-game but here is my idea in a little more detail. All basic range action mode attacks will have projectile motion/arc. Since they said it's a projectile-based system, they can make projectile motion/arc. The arc doesn't have to be a visible indicator/visual line in-game. Make it so only good players can capitalize on it while adding a limit to how far arrows and other projectiles can go before hitting the ground. Longbows(like the kind that was shown in the range video) should have a longer draw time if you want a full draw. My idea is longbows will have a larger range than short bows. However, when you draw the bow by pressing the LMB, the longer you hold it the farther your arrow goes. Of course, there will be a max limit to how far your arrows can go. While the trade-off for a fully drawn longbow is that your character gets rooted to the ground. So you can still click the LMB button for a fast short-range draw but for every second you hold it your character gets a slow effect up to the point the longbow is fully drawn and the character is rooted and can't move until that shot is fired. This will also add a skill shot for archers who want to be really good and test their shots. This also means long bows become valuable and add a chase for a good longbow drop or for crafters to build. Short bows will also be useful because they will have a faster fire rate than longbows. Tab players can utilize short bows to get more shots fired at action combat players who will need a longer draw time to pull off such a skill shot. The risk/reward for short bows would be short range for a higher rate of fire than longbows. The risk/reward for longbows will be longer draw time for a larger range and a higher projectile motion/arc than the short bows. I guess short bow users can use the projectile motion/arc to do some skill shots just not at the same rand as longbows.
I guess what you saying is like player aiming higher instead of point at the target directly in order to gain more effective shoot range to able to hit a target is out of range, if I understand you wrong please correct me.
Well, I wrote a post in the feedback thread, I suggested they can make 3 different class bow type, short and medium and long, the short bow we saw in update still the same class we saw in update video which bow length is bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches(but I don't like people always misunderstand that bow length is heavily relevant to effective shoot range, means I don't like the design make short bow range shorter than other bow type.), medium class include medium size bow which means bow length around 50-60 inches and long bow we saw in update video which bow length is around 65~75 inches then both simplified to same safe max draw length range at around 30~34 inches, long class is Japanese bow yumi that bow length around 83~96 inches and draw length is around 31 to over 41 inches and max safe draw length is depends on the materials and design of the bow but as I know the most are over 34 inches, and the reason I hope they add yumi is when I saw the snipe skill is shoot with one knee down and yumi is the bow I knew was design to able to shoot with one knee down and don't need to worry about hurt the bow and fit Ren’kai’s part of asia culture taste, and I'd like to see for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller, it create kind of synergies between weapon skills and archetype skills to further develop ranged weapon environment and diversity.(And I am consider about something about sacrifice the bow endurance to over draw the bow to gain more damage or more crit chance etc, but I don't know I think it can be fun.)
In my mind it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots like a sniper play style.
So, I don't like the way bring too much action element or say not for average player skill level elements in MMORPG becuase it's a MMORPG, MMORPG should be character build based instead of skill level based, the day I start follow Ashes of Creation and I found out that Intrepid once said the design about risk vs reward is everywhere in Ashes of Creation include tab vs action means action mode less effect by RNG and I think it's a very very bad idea, if the idea stay at action oriented skills are less effect by RNG than target oriented skills I will happy to accept it, but it's not, and it's a very bad idea to have while making a game that owner keep saying it's not for everyone because that idea is heavily and deeply divide players by skill level and I don't really know any MMORPG or online game can live well and happy and make money to further develop next expansion and don't drop large player base in 1 years with bad idea like that will heavily divide players by skill level, I just don't know how MMORPG can survive without average or say not skillful player base.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
Yes, you got the point I was trying to make. However, I don't know why we can't have both skill base action mechanics that rely on people's ability to use basic weapons and regular MMORPG class skills ability. If someone can use a bows basic attack to make a skill shot there is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't take away class ability skills. It also doesn't mean that the game will automatically turn into a basic weapon attack game. It just adds another level of depth to the combat.
Maybe the reason I able to come up with are not things you will care, in my experience this level of design will highly divide players to who can do the trick shot with basic weapon attack consistently that developers aim for imply in game and who can't, it can or say mostly will become you are allowed by people play with you to use the weapon by able to do the tricks, if you can't do the tricks and they are not your friends in the end they won't play with you or you stop use that weapon, which means people will take the trick shot as a baseline without forgiveness unconsciously in most of situations.
I not saying that tricks shouldn't exist, what I trying to say is that people usually misunderstand things and the trick shot you mentioned is build in basic attack and it's not a trick developed by players through playing experience or experiment, it's consciously designed by developers in that basic level foundation and it can or say will misguide players that is the baseline to tell you are average or unskillful, for example:
three ticks in one 16 seconds fight, consider the era we don't really know the shit about how skills work, none of these will be consider as a baseline in that time, but in this day I won't consider the back jump trick is the baseline to tell a player is average or unskillful at least, this is what I trying to say.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
Yes but that's the point. Not everyone should be able to successfully do the trick, especially not without practice. That's what a skill ceiling is. A majority of good players are good because they practice. They didn't just start playing the game and were godly at it. That's why there are training games on steam like kovaak which helps with aim. Also, keep in mind that class skills will still do more damage than basic ranged weapon attacks. This is no different than good players getting good gears and weapons from open-world bosses and dungeons/raids because they are good at the game.
But it shouldn't be designed by developer on purpose at that level, like in GW2 you can put weapon back to sheath to cancel skills so you don't have to waste skill/dodge on skill cancelling or cancel the animation to get a little bit more advantage dps I don't know it's intentional or not but they change a little bit about the trick so I guess it was not what they plan to do but they didn't remove it because players don't want they to remove it and the trick is not a trick difficult to do but if you can time every single time you can get dome advantage or comeback but it's not something that huge to let you can crush your opponent or hardly win, but the trick shot you mentioned is, the trick shot is just like thief's sword 2 skill was suppose to teleport to target when press once then teleport back to where you were when press it again in few seconds, but some players found out that sword 2 skill can infinity teleport forwards the target if they can manage to the trick every time so in a period of time you can see quite a lot thief doing that to killing and trolling people and then Anet fixed it because it's not how it should be and it's broken, the trick shot you mentioned is not at that broken level but it's not a good design at least to me, it's only create illusion and false cognition(I don't know the words I choose are right but it's what my translator told me).
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
The difference between what I want and that is its initial and there's no trick behind it. It will all be based on the type of bo and how far their range is. There is no trick you can use to accurately shoot your opponents that are hiding behind cover or for you to shoot them while you are behind cover. It will just come down to raw skills and practice. I doubt the soft lock aim assist/homing that players get will make a difference if you didn't lock on to a target but shot up in the sky at an angle where the arrow will fall back down and hit them. It will rely purely on skills for the arrow or any other range projectile to hit its target from such an angle.
MO2?
Well, maybe it's because my examples are bad, what I want to say is that kind of skill is base on something too basic(I can't find the right word I just use basic instead) I really don't think it's good or say healthy, what you want will have to bring more reality into game world but like I said before bow and arrow and archery are not like what you think, and design game base on half way realistic and deformed concept/knowledge is not good, that I think it’s need base on the reality to make a good game and balance between fun and real because players need the realistic aspect to feel things look right but too real will kill the fun, so I always try to give my opinions to devs and others base on my experience and knowledge in real life and try my best to transform what's too real and not fun to be fun but still can feel it's real.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
Mortal Online 2 I guess.
Never play it so I can't use it as example, and minecraft too, these 2 game have same bow and arrow mechanic as I know which is what you want.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
Edit - note that this is not where Ashes is going.
Are you saying gravity/projectile motion isn't based on reality? It's basic enough for every class to be able to use it. What you don't want are special technics that are only accessible in one class. For example, I play Destiny 2, and in that game, there was a special movement that could only be done in one class. That creates an unfair environment for the other classes, and there are only 3 classes in Destiny. Now, imagine a special technic that's only in class in Ashes. What I'm proposing is something that anyone can train and try to utalize. Something that any class can do if the player is skilled enough not luck based on picking the right class.
Didn't play MO2 but did play Minecraft