I have to say, I share some of the same concerns as @Dummo , primarily in regards to the player running a rotation relatively camera-blind to suddenly having to re-direct their camera angle directly at an enemy in the distance to execute a proc ability. I suppose you could qualify that as a skill, but an arguably annoying one to master and exercise. Ground targeted abilities are never an issue combining with tab skills, because they're relatively large, ground based targets that don't make you adjust your camera much if at all, but mixing a vague third person landscape / downward angle that generally keeps a full spread of your surroundings in view with intermittent, carefully timed, precise aiming directly in front of your character with a limited window of opportunity? Just sounds like it could be a bit jarring and not a very smooth process visually. But I do like the idea of having a decent amount of aimed skill shots. Especially given the damage it seems like they want abilities like Snipe to put out. That sort of thing should not be tab-target compatible. Archers either need to do high damage with a medium-to-high skill requirement to maintain, or have their damage softened a bit to make up for them being able to kite so easily and auto-target most of their abilities.
IMO, this hybrid system needs to lean more towards one side or the other, because trying to make both reticle skill-shots and blind tab firing work together seems like it can only turn out a bit rocky. If you make any part of the ranged system require players to have a good reticle aiming ability to get the most out of their class, the vast majority of tab-centric players will be upset that they're not able to maximize the archetype's potential. If you allow tab players the same ability to output damage as those who choose the more challenging path of utilizing more skill-based abilities, you'll get many action players complaining that their effort isn't worth the trouble of occasionally missing shots or hitting the wrong target in a pack, and likely switching to tab for the majority of content, making much of the effort put into the "hybrid" system a waste of time.
I don't want to be a downer, I just have a hard time seeing how Intrepid can actually blend reticle skillshots into a largely tab based rotation without it feeling clunky and jarring. Considering that the "action mode" they showed off in the stream is essentially a soft lock plug-in for the tab system, I'd hesitate to even call an action-targeted ability a skill shot. You stick your cursor anywhere on (or seemingly near) the target and it hits them square in their hitbox. You might as well make the skill shots accessible from tab target mode with a stylized arrow ground decal that moves with your cursor similar to WoW's ranged skillshots that hit the nearest enemy who's hitbox falls on the decal boundary. Both require nothing more than vaguely hovering your cursor over the target, just with a different camera angle and visual aid. I've personally never taken issue with that approach to skillshots in the past.
This depends how they balance out systems, if it works one to one with 0 bonuses for extra effort then people will complain. This is why people are mentioning things early, as voicing increased difficulty and getting less is a issue in peoples eyes.
Right, but the opposite side of the coin is that if they don't work one to one with 0 bonuses, then the higher skill system, action, will have the bonuses.
There's pros and cons for both of the camera modes, there does not need to be an extra incentive to use either.
Ashes of creation combat should not be like top down league / dota style placing circles like you are playing a moba. That sounds terrible if they is what you were kind of suggesting. They just need a intuitive way for camera to be repositioned for action tyle skills or for them to be just used in front of you.
If they can figure that out, sure. I don't really see it happening without either having to drag your aim to the target you wish to hit when switching from tab targeting camera mode to reticle camera mode yourself, or the game centering your camera and thus reticle on your target automatically when switching from tab targeting camera mode to reticle camera mode. Both options seem tedious.
For enemy-targeted skillshots at least, I can sort of visualize what a smooth camera transition would look like, but it would have to be more up-close and centered right over the player's shoulder. A smooth, but relatively quick transition, with the camera's distance from the player being locked in while aiming, that then pans back to the previous camera distance just as quickly after the skillshot is taken. So you press the ability of the key, the camera pans in, you aim and click or press the ability key again, and the camera pans back out.
I can only see this working if you already have your target centered on your screen in tab targeting camera mode, which certainly is not always the case.
There has always been pros and cons in games based on design. If you are having to aim and it is much more difficult to do that kin of attack there are cons and pros of damage.
That is no different then in any game to begin with including tab. You have skills that aoe and deal less damage, or you have skills that single target and deal more dmg. Things need to be done on a design level for balance.
Having incentives for people to use certain things is completely fine. Just because it is a actions kill doesn't mean all action kills get increased damage that isn't what it is about. If you have a easy aoe to use, that doesn't mean you should be getting increased damage.
I vote for high damage going on to difficult-to-aim shots, variable inertia based on attributes, encumberance and damage to character; and next to no dashes but instead some light acrobatics for the particularly acrobatic and duck/ weave available (crouching while changing direction should be slightly faster) . I should be able to play this game first person. . .
no offense, but you sound like the guy that will spamming chat with aim bot adverts.
Sure aimbotting can ruin stuff, I hope Intrepid is proactive with finding and banning cheaters.
For a moderate 'reward' for good aim: 330% normal damage dmg or about 2x compared to other abilities, on a 1.2s charged shot with max 3 per 10 seconds sounds good. Has counterplay and isn't extremely high damage. ~1.8x normal DPS for something like 4 seconds out of 10 seconds with chance to miss due to aiming or enemy dodges is moderate.
I have to say, I share some of the same concerns as @Dummo , primarily in regards to the player running a rotation relatively camera-blind to suddenly having to re-direct their camera angle directly at an enemy in the distance to execute a proc ability. I suppose you could qualify that as a skill, but an arguably annoying one to master and exercise. Ground targeted abilities are never an issue combining with tab skills, because they're relatively large, ground based targets that don't make you adjust your camera much if at all, but mixing a vague third person landscape / downward angle that generally keeps a full spread of your surroundings in view with intermittent, carefully timed, precise aiming directly in front of your character with a limited window of opportunity? Just sounds like it could be a bit jarring and not a very smooth process visually. But I do like the idea of having a decent amount of aimed skill shots. Especially given the damage it seems like they want abilities like Snipe to put out. That sort of thing should not be tab-target compatible. Archers either need to do high damage with a medium-to-high skill requirement to maintain, or have their damage softened a bit to make up for them being able to kite so easily and auto-target most of their abilities.
IMO, this hybrid system needs to lean more towards one side or the other, because trying to make both reticle skill-shots and blind tab firing work together seems like it can only turn out a bit rocky. If you make any part of the ranged system require players to have a good reticle aiming ability to get the most out of their class, the vast majority of tab-centric players will be upset that they're not able to maximize the archetype's potential. If you allow tab players the same ability to output damage as those who choose the more challenging path of utilizing more skill-based abilities, you'll get many action players complaining that their effort isn't worth the trouble of occasionally missing shots or hitting the wrong target in a pack, and likely switching to tab for the majority of content, making much of the effort put into the "hybrid" system a waste of time.
I don't want to be a downer, I just have a hard time seeing how Intrepid can actually blend reticle skillshots into a largely tab based rotation without it feeling clunky and jarring. Considering that the "action mode" they showed off in the stream is essentially a soft lock plug-in for the tab system, I'd hesitate to even call an action-targeted ability a skill shot. You stick your cursor anywhere on (or seemingly near) the target and it hits them square in their hitbox. You might as well make the skill shots accessible from tab target mode with a stylized arrow ground decal that moves with your cursor similar to WoW's ranged skillshots that hit the nearest enemy who's hitbox falls on the decal boundary. Both require nothing more than vaguely hovering your cursor over the target, just with a different camera angle and visual aid. I've personally never taken issue with that approach to skillshots in the past.
This depends how they balance out systems, if it works one to one with 0 bonuses for extra effort then people will complain. This is why people are mentioning things early, as voicing increased difficulty and getting less is a issue in peoples eyes.
Right, but the opposite side of the coin is that if they don't work one to one with 0 bonuses, then the higher skill system, action, will have the bonuses.
There's pros and cons for both of the camera modes, there does not need to be an extra incentive to use either.
Ashes of creation combat should not be like top down league / dota style placing circles like you are playing a moba. That sounds terrible if they is what you were kind of suggesting. They just need a intuitive way for camera to be repositioned for action tyle skills or for them to be just used in front of you.
If they can figure that out, sure. I don't really see it happening without either having to drag your aim to the target you wish to hit when switching from tab targeting camera mode to reticle camera mode yourself, or the game centering your camera and thus reticle on your target automatically when switching from tab targeting camera mode to reticle camera mode. Both options seem tedious.
For enemy-targeted skillshots at least, I can sort of visualize what a smooth camera transition would look like, but it would have to be more up-close and centered right over the player's shoulder. A smooth, but relatively quick transition, with the camera's distance from the player being locked in while aiming, that then pans back to the previous camera distance just as quickly after the skillshot is taken. So you press the ability of the key, the camera pans in, you aim and click or press the ability key again, and the camera pans back out.
I can only see this working if you already have your target centered on your screen in tab targeting camera mode, which certainly is not always the case.
There has always been pros and cons in games based on design. If you are having to aim and it is much more difficult to do that kin of attack there are cons and pros of damage.
That is no different then in any game to begin with including tab. You have skills that aoe and deal less damage, or you have skills that single target and deal more dmg. Things need to be done on a design level for balance.
Having incentives for people to use certain things is completely fine. Just because it is a actions kill doesn't mean all action kills get increased damage that isn't what it is about. If you have a easy aoe to use, that doesn't mean you should be getting increased damage.
I just meant pros and cons when comparing the tab target camera mode and the reticle camera mode. Both of those modes have their own advantages. There does not need to be an extra incentive in that regard.
I have to say, I share some of the same concerns as @Dummo , primarily in regards to the player running a rotation relatively camera-blind to suddenly having to re-direct their camera angle directly at an enemy in the distance to execute a proc ability. I suppose you could qualify that as a skill, but an arguably annoying one to master and exercise. Ground targeted abilities are never an issue combining with tab skills, because they're relatively large, ground based targets that don't make you adjust your camera much if at all, but mixing a vague third person landscape / downward angle that generally keeps a full spread of your surroundings in view with intermittent, carefully timed, precise aiming directly in front of your character with a limited window of opportunity? Just sounds like it could be a bit jarring and not a very smooth process visually. But I do like the idea of having a decent amount of aimed skill shots. Especially given the damage it seems like they want abilities like Snipe to put out. That sort of thing should not be tab-target compatible. Archers either need to do high damage with a medium-to-high skill requirement to maintain, or have their damage softened a bit to make up for them being able to kite so easily and auto-target most of their abilities.
IMO, this hybrid system needs to lean more towards one side or the other, because trying to make both reticle skill-shots and blind tab firing work together seems like it can only turn out a bit rocky. If you make any part of the ranged system require players to have a good reticle aiming ability to get the most out of their class, the vast majority of tab-centric players will be upset that they're not able to maximize the archetype's potential. If you allow tab players the same ability to output damage as those who choose the more challenging path of utilizing more skill-based abilities, you'll get many action players complaining that their effort isn't worth the trouble of occasionally missing shots or hitting the wrong target in a pack, and likely switching to tab for the majority of content, making much of the effort put into the "hybrid" system a waste of time.
I don't want to be a downer, I just have a hard time seeing how Intrepid can actually blend reticle skillshots into a largely tab based rotation without it feeling clunky and jarring. Considering that the "action mode" they showed off in the stream is essentially a soft lock plug-in for the tab system, I'd hesitate to even call an action-targeted ability a skill shot. You stick your cursor anywhere on (or seemingly near) the target and it hits them square in their hitbox. You might as well make the skill shots accessible from tab target mode with a stylized arrow ground decal that moves with your cursor similar to WoW's ranged skillshots that hit the nearest enemy who's hitbox falls on the decal boundary. Both require nothing more than vaguely hovering your cursor over the target, just with a different camera angle and visual aid. I've personally never taken issue with that approach to skillshots in the past.
This depends how they balance out systems, if it works one to one with 0 bonuses for extra effort then people will complain. This is why people are mentioning things early, as voicing increased difficulty and getting less is a issue in peoples eyes.
Right, but the opposite side of the coin is that if they don't work one to one with 0 bonuses, then the higher skill system, action, will have the bonuses.
There's pros and cons for both of the camera modes, there does not need to be an extra incentive to use either.
Ashes of creation combat should not be like top down league / dota style placing circles like you are playing a moba. That sounds terrible if they is what you were kind of suggesting. They just need a intuitive way for camera to be repositioned for action tyle skills or for them to be just used in front of you.
If they can figure that out, sure. I don't really see it happening without either having to drag your aim to the target you wish to hit when switching from tab targeting camera mode to reticle camera mode yourself, or the game centering your camera and thus reticle on your target automatically when switching from tab targeting camera mode to reticle camera mode. Both options seem tedious.
For enemy-targeted skillshots at least, I can sort of visualize what a smooth camera transition would look like, but it would have to be more up-close and centered right over the player's shoulder. A smooth, but relatively quick transition, with the camera's distance from the player being locked in while aiming, that then pans back to the previous camera distance just as quickly after the skillshot is taken. So you press the ability of the key, the camera pans in, you aim and click or press the ability key again, and the camera pans back out.
I can only see this working if you already have your target centered on your screen in tab targeting camera mode, which certainly is not always the case.
There has always been pros and cons in games based on design. If you are having to aim and it is much more difficult to do that kin of attack there are cons and pros of damage.
That is no different then in any game to begin with including tab. You have skills that aoe and deal less damage, or you have skills that single target and deal more dmg. Things need to be done on a design level for balance.
Having incentives for people to use certain things is completely fine. Just because it is a actions kill doesn't mean all action kills get increased damage that isn't what it is about. If you have a easy aoe to use, that doesn't mean you should be getting increased damage.
I just meant pros and cons when comparing the tab target camera mode and the reticle camera mode. Both of those modes have their own advantages. There does not need to be an extra incentive in that regard.
Just because something may have an advantage in a certain situation does not mean that will be the norm of combat.
But ill humor you, in what advantage is there to use action camera over tab (as you don't need to look at a target to it in a fight.)
What advantage is there to a skill you need to aim and shoot and projectile, over a tab skill that will automatically shoot the projectile at the target instantly and hit the target?
If the person using tab target can deal double the amount of damage to a target on average, you are fine action combat has "advantages" based on your perception on what is an advantage to you if it is weaker in most scenarios?
I agree with some other people writing on here. In my opinion. Action combat needs an advantage over tab target wether it is a dmg increase, better procs or longer range. Action combat should be for endgame players who wants to be challenged, and who put work into actually learning the game, combat and making strategic combat decisions while playing. And there needs to be an advantage for that.
Not hating on tab target, as it is great for newer players learning / or casuals. There is absolutely no skill in tab target combat. I said what i said.
Honestly, I wish they would just stick with the soft lock reticle system. Press a button to engage "combat mode" press it again to get your cursor back. Fighting in a soft-lock reticle mode is basically click targeting with a small margin of error, without the need to actually click, and with a BUILT IN tab targeting option without leaving the reticle view! Keeping it to only this system would make camera adjustments for skillshots in combat way less visually jarring. Having the camera zoom in and out from an average tab combat perspective quickly enough to actually make combat flow well and not get in the way of missing skillshot opportunities sounds awful, no matter how smooth the transition is, especially given how far away from their toon some people keep their tab-combat MMO cams. If they would just pick one and roll with it, dev time would be cut down and they'd actually have a solid combat direction to aim for (no pun intended).
Just because something may have an advantage in a certain situation does not mean that will be the norm of combat.
No, that's basically down to preference, unless there's an extra incentive added that will actually make one camera mode better than the other.
But ill humor you, in what advantage is there to use action camera over tab (as you don't need to look at a target to it in a fight.)
An example would be that the reticle camera mode offers an easier and quicker way to select/shoot an easy to select target. Besides that it also offers the tab targeting the tab target camera mode offers, just less overview. The tab target camera mode on the other hand offers an easier way to select a harder to select target, for example in a larger crowd. In other words, more overview.
What advantage is there to a skill you need to aim and shoot and projectile, over a tab skill that will automatically shoot the projectile at the target instantly and hit the target?
I would say this comes down to balancing with the melee combat. Melee combat, as far as we know now, is mostly action combat based. So it's not a matter of an actual skillshot for ranged combat to deal more damage, it would moreso be a case of tab targeted skills dealing less damage.
If the person using tab target can deal double the amount of damage to a target on average, you are fine action combat has "advantages" based on your perception on what is an advantage to you if it is weaker in most scenarios?
I don't see how the tab targeting camera mode would make you deal double the amount of damage on average, if you just hit your shots with the softlock aiming in the reticle camera mode, ...ór just use the tab targeting in the reticle camera mode.
Honestly, I wish they would just stick with the soft lock reticle system. Press a button to engage "combat mode" press it again to get your cursor back. Fighting in a soft-lock reticle mode is basically click targeting with a small margin of error, without the need to actually click, and with a BUILT IN tab targeting option without leaving the reticle view! Keeping it to only this system would make camera adjustments for skillshots in combat way less visually jarring. Having the camera zoom in and out from an average tab combat perspective quickly enough to actually make combat flow well and not get in the way of missing skillshot opportunities sounds awful, no matter how smooth the transition is, especially given how far away from their toon some people keep their tab-combat MMO cams. If they would just pick one and roll with it, dev time would be cut down and they'd actually have a solid combat direction to aim for (no pun intended).
I agree, but I just don't see them completely removing the tab targeting camera mode. Hence is why I try to come up with other solutions.
No, that's basically down to preference, unless there's an extra incentive added that will actually make one camera mode better than the other.
Things that change how paly works is not down to preference when it can directly effect how much damage you do.
An example would be that the reticle camera mode offers an easier and quicker way to select/shoot an easy to select target. Besides that it also offers the tab targeting the tab target camera mode offers, just less overview. The tab target camera mode on the other hand offers an easier way to select a harder to select target, for example in a larger crowd. In other words, more overview.
Not that is not exactly how it works. If you are fighting a target or a few targets and you want to hit the warrior for example it is true rather then just clicking you will shoot instantly as well. So technically in that instance it is faster than tab. But that only relates tot he first shot...... you will have to continue to track their movements requiring much more effort than the other person use had selected him and can full kite backwards and shoot without clicking again. not to mention if the target is closer you just press tab, this is effecting gameplay and making it much easier as you just use tab.
So this isn't really a point as an advantage, I've never had a issue clicking on my target with tab in my life.
I don't see how the tab targeting camera mode would make you deal double the amount of damage on average, if you just hit your shots with the softlock aiming in the reticle camera mode, ...ór just use the tab targeting in the reticle camera mode.
You are missing the point, when I'm looking at games i look from a design perspective. You are effective saying there is no different between tab and action in how you can deal damage because of the advantages.
I am saying if design wise you look at damage done for people and you can see tab is effective doing far more and clearly the easier system to use. It would be clearly shown there is a advantage for one over the other and it would need to be adjusted. Even more so since you do less than in action as you use tab.
The only one you should be getting more potential damage with is action combat because of the effort required (depending on the skills).
My question for you would be if we go to the melee showcase with the hammer skill. If there is a tab version that you can use and it tracks someone automatically for you, over action where you need to control it yourself and you can make mistakes. Do you feel that should have the same damage?
If you miss 1 out of 4 attacks with the hammer do to action mode you are effective dealing 25% less damage. While needing to do far more work to make sure you don't lose more damage, compared to a tab version that hits 100% of the time.
This sentiment everything needs to be balanced makes no sense, that isn't how design works. Skill does giant aoe ok it doesn't do big dmg. Skill does small aoe, ok it should deal more damage than the large aoe or have some additional effect.
If they would just pick one and roll with it, dev time would be cut down and they'd actually have a solid combat direction to aim for (no pun intended).
As they said multiple times, if they do pick one - it's gon be tab. So some people would be butthurt either way.
If they would just pick one and roll with it, dev time would be cut down and they'd actually have a solid combat direction to aim for (no pun intended).
As they said multiple times, if they do pick one - it's gon be tab. So some people would be butthurt either way.
I don't know why people are saying they need to pick one, what they have is mostly fine once they iron some stuff out.
If it plays different than what people are expecting and that balance is fine that is great, but if there is a clear advantage to tab and damage wise they easily do 30+% more damage statically. Clearly they need to buff for the input and skill players have to use compared to tab. Skill is normally always rewarded in games, it be backwards if that wasn't the case now.
If you are fighting a target or a few targets and you want to hit the warrior for example it is true rather then just clicking you will shoot instantly as well. So technically in that instance it is faster than tab. But that only relates tot he first shot...... you will have to continue to track their movements requiring much more effort than the other person use had selected him and can full kite backwards and shoot without clicking again.
I do agree that the slower walking backwards is quite a disadvantage to the reticle camera mode. Switching camera mode in this instance could be done though.
not to mention if the target is closer you just press tab, this is effecting gameplay and making it much easier as you just use tab.
What if there's a third target, that's closer to you than the target you want to shoot?
You are missing the point, when I'm looking at games i look from a design perspective. You are effective saying there is no different between tab and action in how you can deal damage because of the advantages.
That is not what I said. I said that the different camera modes have different advantages in certain situations. An optimal way to fight with Ashes' hybrid combat might be to switch camera modes every so often. Now this could be tedious to do, but I don't see them removing the tab target camera mode.
My question for you would be if we go to the melee showcase with the hammer skill. If there is a tab version that you can use and it tracks someone automatically for you, over action where you need to control it yourself and you can make mistakes. Do you feel that should have the same damage?
You missed my edit in my previous post. Comes down to me agreeing tab targeted abilities should deal less damage than action abilities. But that lies in the nature of the ability, not in the nature of the camera mode.
This sentiment everything needs to be balanced makes no sense, that isn't how design works. Skill does giant aoe ok it doesn't do big dmg. Skill does small aoe, ok it should deal more damage than the large aoe or have some additional effect.
If it plays different than what people are expecting and that balance is fine that is great, but if there is a clear advantage to tab and damage wise they easily do 30+% more damage statically. Clearly they need to buff for the input and skill players have to use compared to tab. Skill is normally always rewarded in games, it be backwards if that wasn't the case now.
What if there's a third target, that's closer to you than the target you want to shoot?
I am curious how they'll deal with bodyblocking against tab abilities that are going to people behind you (during a big fight like a siege or smth). If the system is projectile-based, then in theory that projectile should just hit you instead. But then the whole premise of "tab can let you hit people in the back" kinda crumbles. And if tab does allow for that, the whole "it's projectile-based" phrase is kinda false.
I'd personally be fine with ranged tab attacks going directly to their targets, but I feel like the action combat crowd would be butthurt over that, cause not only would they have to be more skillful but on top of that tab would have an upper hand in bigger fights.
What if there's a third target, that's closer to you than the target you want to shoot?
I am curious how they'll deal with bodyblocking against tab abilities that are going to people behind you (during a big fight like a siege or smth). If the system is projectile-based, then in theory that projectile should just hit you instead. But then the whole premise of "tab can let you hit people in the back" kinda crumbles. And if tab does allow for that, the whole "it's projectile-based" phrase is kinda false.
I'd personally be fine with ranged tab attacks going directly to their targets, but I feel like the action combat crowd would be butthurt over that, cause not only would they have to be more skillful but on top of that tab would have an upper hand in bigger fights.
I saw a projectile go through the mob int he live stream, unsure if things work different with players though, or it could just be stuff they need to iron out still.
I saw a projectile go through the mob int he live stream, unsure if things work different with players though, or it could just be stuff they need to iron out still.
Yeah, I feel like there'll be another wave of butthurt once more people notice that attacks go through, if they do
This sentiment everything needs to be balanced makes no sense, that isn't how design works. Skill does giant aoe ok it doesn't do big dmg. Skill does small aoe, ok it should deal more damage than the large aoe or have some additional effect.
If it plays different than what people are expecting and that balance is fine that is great, but if there is a clear advantage to tab and damage wise they easily do 30+% more damage statically. Clearly they need to buff for the input and skill players have to use compared to tab. Skill is normally always rewarded in games, it be backwards if that wasn't the case now.
This is also balancing.
I'm talking about balancing between tab and action with design. If you put more effort into something you should get a reward out of it. The later part is simply showing if you put more effort into something you get more dmg because it is harder to hit the target.
This sentiment everything needs to be balanced makes no sense, that isn't how design works. Skill does giant aoe ok it doesn't do big dmg. Skill does small aoe, ok it should deal more damage than the large aoe or have some additional effect.
If it plays different than what people are expecting and that balance is fine that is great, but if there is a clear advantage to tab and damage wise they easily do 30+% more damage statically. Clearly they need to buff for the input and skill players have to use compared to tab. Skill is normally always rewarded in games, it be backwards if that wasn't the case now.
This is also balancing.
I'm talking about balancing between tab and action with design. If you put more effort into something you should get a reward out of it. The later part is simply showing if you put more effort into something you get more dmg because it is harder to hit the target.
But this won't be true for stationary bosses, or even some types of stationary player.
Which is why 'Detarget' is our most obvious balancing approach option.
No additional power needed for aiming, but by 'adding a disadvantage to pure Tab' sometimes (especially if there's a delay on being able to retarget that same target using Tab stuff) it doesn't go down the path of 'Ok everyone switch to Action Mode because you do the most damage/CC/whatever to this boss'.
If you are fighting a target or a few targets and you want to hit the warrior for example it is true rather then just clicking you will shoot instantly as well. So technically in that instance it is faster than tab. But that only relates tot he first shot...... you will have to continue to track their movements requiring much more effort than the other person use had selected him and can full kite backwards and shoot without clicking again.
I do agree that the slower walking backwards is quite a disadvantage to the reticle camera mode. Switching camera mode in this instance could be done though.
not to mention if the target is closer you just press tab, this is effecting gameplay and making it much easier as you just use tab.
What if there's a third target, that's closer to you than the target you want to shoot?
You are missing the point, when I'm looking at games i look from a design perspective. You are effective saying there is no different between tab and action in how you can deal damage because of the advantages.
That is not what I said. I said that the different camera modes have different advantages in certain situations. An optimal way to fight with Ashes' hybrid combat might be to switch camera modes every so often. Now this could be tedious to do, but I don't see them removing the tab target camera mode.
My question for you would be if we go to the melee showcase with the hammer skill. If there is a tab version that you can use and it tracks someone automatically for you, over action where you need to control it yourself and you can make mistakes. Do you feel that should have the same damage?
You missed my edit in my previous post. Comes down to me agreeing tab targeted abilities should deal less damage than action abilities. But that lies in the nature of the ability, not in the nature of the camera mode.
If there are multiple targets I've never really had a issue select the target or hitting tab twice. It is a lot easier to do that than track the target the entire time.
Only time id view things as a benefit is if you are going back and forth between targets constantly for some reason, but that doesn't seem that normal (when i say constantly i mean using a skill on every single target in a rotation around them).
Also though there some be benefits to action abilities that is also subject to a lot of other things as well. A tab ability can deal more damage than a action one and that could be completely fine as there can be reasons for it.
My main point on damage right now is about the basic attacks, until i see more how abilities work and such I feel i can't say as much on them. You will constantly be doing basic attacks compared to other tab target mmorpgs where that button isn't even really used.
This sentiment everything needs to be balanced makes no sense, that isn't how design works. Skill does giant aoe ok it doesn't do big dmg. Skill does small aoe, ok it should deal more damage than the large aoe or have some additional effect.
If it plays different than what people are expecting and that balance is fine that is great, but if there is a clear advantage to tab and damage wise they easily do 30+% more damage statically. Clearly they need to buff for the input and skill players have to use compared to tab. Skill is normally always rewarded in games, it be backwards if that wasn't the case now.
This is also balancing.
I'm talking about balancing between tab and action with design. If you put more effort into something you should get a reward out of it. The later part is simply showing if you put more effort into something you get more dmg because it is harder to hit the target.
But this won't be true for stationary bosses, or even some types of stationary player.
Which is why 'Detarget' is our most obvious balancing approach option.
No additional power needed for aiming, but by 'adding a disadvantage to pure Tab' sometimes (especially if there's a delay on being able to retarget that same target using Tab stuff) it doesn't go down the path of 'Ok everyone switch to Action Mode because you do the most damage/CC/whatever to this boss'.
That is assuming things work like that, I don't want to assume anything until it is known or shown in the game atleast. Or talked about in detail. Else we are assuming things and piecing together gameplay in a way that it might not work like that exactly or be as effective as one might think.
What if there's a third target, that's closer to you than the target you want to shoot?
I am curious how they'll deal with bodyblocking against tab abilities that are going to people behind you (during a big fight like a siege or smth). If the system is projectile-based, then in theory that projectile should just hit you instead. But then the whole premise of "tab can let you hit people in the back" kinda crumbles. And if tab does allow for that, the whole "it's projectile-based" phrase is kinda false.
I'd personally be fine with ranged tab attacks going directly to their targets, but I feel like the action combat crowd would be butthurt over that, cause not only would they have to be more skillful but on top of that tab would have an upper hand in bigger fights.
I'd be fine with tab target abilities going through players, I just hope they'll be able to be blocked (not body blocked) or dodged.
That is assuming things work like that, I don't want to assume anything until it is known or shown in the game atleast. Or talked about in detail. Else we are assuming things and piecing together gameplay in a way that it might not work like that exactly or be as effective as one might think.
I think I'll start asking about detargeting in the dev stream q&a. A definite requirement to make tab target pvp better and more skill-demanding. L2's pvp was definitely way more dull before it.
My main point on damage right now is about the basic attacks, until i see more how abilities work and such I feel i can't say as much on them. You will constantly be doing basic attacks compared to other tab target mmorpgs where that button isn't even really used.
I agree basic attacks in reticle camera mode vs tab target camera mode should be balanced, normally that is indeed done by giving the action combat a damage bonus. I figured this would be naturally the case, as is done in other games, hence my answers in previous posts. But now that I think about it, it might not be, because of Ashes having somewhat two different combat systems coexisting. If they do not give the basic attacks in reticle camera mode a damage bonus, let's hope we won't be using the basic attacks often. I do assume they'd give action/aimed skillshots a damage bonus over tab targeted abilities.
I believe they said in the ranger basic ranged attack showcase that some abilities will behave differently depending on if its casted with tab target or action combat, and some abilities will be able to be freecasted with no lock on necessary. There will definitely be a skill ceiling, but a meta will also pop up eventually, and how that is dealt with we will just have to wait and see. (I believe they said we will have the ability to swap between using majority action combat, or tab target.)
I just really hope they don't implement any sort of headshot thing, i hate seeing pinpoint precision required for projectiles, i hated muskets and bows in new world, im not trying to play a FPS.
I think Black Desert handled projectiles pretty well when it came to Ranger.
Comments
There has always been pros and cons in games based on design. If you are having to aim and it is much more difficult to do that kin of attack there are cons and pros of damage.
That is no different then in any game to begin with including tab. You have skills that aoe and deal less damage, or you have skills that single target and deal more dmg. Things need to be done on a design level for balance.
Having incentives for people to use certain things is completely fine. Just because it is a actions kill doesn't mean all action kills get increased damage that isn't what it is about. If you have a easy aoe to use, that doesn't mean you should be getting increased damage.
Sure aimbotting can ruin stuff, I hope Intrepid is proactive with finding and banning cheaters.
For a moderate 'reward' for good aim: 330% normal damage dmg or about 2x compared to other abilities, on a 1.2s charged shot with max 3 per 10 seconds sounds good. Has counterplay and isn't extremely high damage. ~1.8x normal DPS for something like 4 seconds out of 10 seconds with chance to miss due to aiming or enemy dodges is moderate.
I just meant pros and cons when comparing the tab target camera mode and the reticle camera mode. Both of those modes have their own advantages. There does not need to be an extra incentive in that regard.
Just because something may have an advantage in a certain situation does not mean that will be the norm of combat.
But ill humor you, in what advantage is there to use action camera over tab (as you don't need to look at a target to it in a fight.)
What advantage is there to a skill you need to aim and shoot and projectile, over a tab skill that will automatically shoot the projectile at the target instantly and hit the target?
If the person using tab target can deal double the amount of damage to a target on average, you are fine action combat has "advantages" based on your perception on what is an advantage to you if it is weaker in most scenarios?
Not hating on tab target, as it is great for newer players learning / or casuals. There is absolutely no skill in tab target combat. I said what i said.
No, that's basically down to preference, unless there's an extra incentive added that will actually make one camera mode better than the other.
An example would be that the reticle camera mode offers an easier and quicker way to select/shoot an easy to select target. Besides that it also offers the tab targeting the tab target camera mode offers, just less overview. The tab target camera mode on the other hand offers an easier way to select a harder to select target, for example in a larger crowd. In other words, more overview.
I would say this comes down to balancing with the melee combat. Melee combat, as far as we know now, is mostly action combat based. So it's not a matter of an actual skillshot for ranged combat to deal more damage, it would moreso be a case of tab targeted skills dealing less damage.
I don't see how the tab targeting camera mode would make you deal double the amount of damage on average, if you just hit your shots with the softlock aiming in the reticle camera mode, ...ór just use the tab targeting in the reticle camera mode.
I agree, but I just don't see them completely removing the tab targeting camera mode. Hence is why I try to come up with other solutions.
Things that change how paly works is not down to preference when it can directly effect how much damage you do.
Not that is not exactly how it works. If you are fighting a target or a few targets and you want to hit the warrior for example it is true rather then just clicking you will shoot instantly as well. So technically in that instance it is faster than tab. But that only relates tot he first shot...... you will have to continue to track their movements requiring much more effort than the other person use had selected him and can full kite backwards and shoot without clicking again. not to mention if the target is closer you just press tab, this is effecting gameplay and making it much easier as you just use tab.
So this isn't really a point as an advantage, I've never had a issue clicking on my target with tab in my life.
You are missing the point, when I'm looking at games i look from a design perspective. You are effective saying there is no different between tab and action in how you can deal damage because of the advantages.
I am saying if design wise you look at damage done for people and you can see tab is effective doing far more and clearly the easier system to use. It would be clearly shown there is a advantage for one over the other and it would need to be adjusted. Even more so since you do less than in action as you use tab.
The only one you should be getting more potential damage with is action combat because of the effort required (depending on the skills).
My question for you would be if we go to the melee showcase with the hammer skill. If there is a tab version that you can use and it tracks someone automatically for you, over action where you need to control it yourself and you can make mistakes. Do you feel that should have the same damage?
If you miss 1 out of 4 attacks with the hammer do to action mode you are effective dealing 25% less damage. While needing to do far more work to make sure you don't lose more damage, compared to a tab version that hits 100% of the time.
This sentiment everything needs to be balanced makes no sense, that isn't how design works. Skill does giant aoe ok it doesn't do big dmg. Skill does small aoe, ok it should deal more damage than the large aoe or have some additional effect.
I don't know why people are saying they need to pick one, what they have is mostly fine once they iron some stuff out.
If it plays different than what people are expecting and that balance is fine that is great, but if there is a clear advantage to tab and damage wise they easily do 30+% more damage statically. Clearly they need to buff for the input and skill players have to use compared to tab. Skill is normally always rewarded in games, it be backwards if that wasn't the case now.
I do agree that the slower walking backwards is quite a disadvantage to the reticle camera mode. Switching camera mode in this instance could be done though.
What if there's a third target, that's closer to you than the target you want to shoot?
That is not what I said. I said that the different camera modes have different advantages in certain situations. An optimal way to fight with Ashes' hybrid combat might be to switch camera modes every so often. Now this could be tedious to do, but I don't see them removing the tab target camera mode.
You missed my edit in my previous post. Comes down to me agreeing tab targeted abilities should deal less damage than action abilities. But that lies in the nature of the ability, not in the nature of the camera mode.
These two sentences are contradicting.
This is also balancing.
I'd personally be fine with ranged tab attacks going directly to their targets, but I feel like the action combat crowd would be butthurt over that, cause not only would they have to be more skillful but on top of that tab would have an upper hand in bigger fights.
I saw a projectile go through the mob int he live stream, unsure if things work different with players though, or it could just be stuff they need to iron out still.
I'm talking about balancing between tab and action with design. If you put more effort into something you should get a reward out of it. The later part is simply showing if you put more effort into something you get more dmg because it is harder to hit the target.
But this won't be true for stationary bosses, or even some types of stationary player.
Which is why 'Detarget' is our most obvious balancing approach option.
No additional power needed for aiming, but by 'adding a disadvantage to pure Tab' sometimes (especially if there's a delay on being able to retarget that same target using Tab stuff) it doesn't go down the path of 'Ok everyone switch to Action Mode because you do the most damage/CC/whatever to this boss'.
If there are multiple targets I've never really had a issue select the target or hitting tab twice. It is a lot easier to do that than track the target the entire time.
Only time id view things as a benefit is if you are going back and forth between targets constantly for some reason, but that doesn't seem that normal (when i say constantly i mean using a skill on every single target in a rotation around them).
Also though there some be benefits to action abilities that is also subject to a lot of other things as well. A tab ability can deal more damage than a action one and that could be completely fine as there can be reasons for it.
My main point on damage right now is about the basic attacks, until i see more how abilities work and such I feel i can't say as much on them. You will constantly be doing basic attacks compared to other tab target mmorpgs where that button isn't even really used.
That is assuming things work like that, I don't want to assume anything until it is known or shown in the game atleast. Or talked about in detail. Else we are assuming things and piecing together gameplay in a way that it might not work like that exactly or be as effective as one might think.
I'd be fine with tab target abilities going through players, I just hope they'll be able to be blocked (not body blocked) or dodged.
I agree basic attacks in reticle camera mode vs tab target camera mode should be balanced, normally that is indeed done by giving the action combat a damage bonus. I figured this would be naturally the case, as is done in other games, hence my answers in previous posts. But now that I think about it, it might not be, because of Ashes having somewhat two different combat systems coexisting. If they do not give the basic attacks in reticle camera mode a damage bonus, let's hope we won't be using the basic attacks often. I do assume they'd give action/aimed skillshots a damage bonus over tab targeted abilities.
I just really hope they don't implement any sort of headshot thing, i hate seeing pinpoint precision required for projectiles, i hated muskets and bows in new world, im not trying to play a FPS.
I think Black Desert handled projectiles pretty well when it came to Ranger.