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How to improve Melee Combat animations.

XenotorXenotor Member, Alpha Two
in General Discussion
Recently i re watched the melee combat intro and to me the animations looked similar to Elden ring.
Just not there yet.
There is no impact even with the ground fissure.
Also way to fast for a 2 handed heavy weapon.
There is for example the swing that ends with the sword hitting the left side back and then suddenly appearing in a stabbing animation from the right side.

This is solely about the Basic attacks.
Not the skills.

To me, while an improvement over the past, looked way over the top.
For reference the original video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3LydR8VssY



Shad here has a great video on alternative animations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRMgAXisKEc
One more specific on the great sword.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMsJXA0Vitg


This to me the animations he does look and feel way better then what we currently have.
There is the weight to the weapons as they don't instantly stop.


The Impact however must come from the target having a reaction to great impact.
For example a knock back or knockdown when hit by a heavy weapon.
Or staggering from being stabbed.
But impact is an entire discussion on its own.

Here id like to focus on Melee weapons animations.

So what do you think after watching videos from shad?

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Comments

  • IzilIzil Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Realism doesn't transfer well into MMORPG combat as its very animation driven for the sake of balance and fun. Realistic combat will change the game for the worse, its been tried over and over and failed for many games. Realism for the most part takes the fun from combat and to be fair going from a nerd perspective its fantasy which is the idea of something diffrent from our world, combat included
    Izil.png
  • XenotorXenotor Member, Alpha Two
    Izil wrote: »
    Realism doesn't transfer well into MMORPG combat as its very animation driven for the sake of balance and fun. Realistic combat will change the game for the worse, its been tried over and over and failed for many games. Realism for the most part takes the fun from combat and to be fair going from a nerd perspective its fantasy which is the idea of something different from our world, combat included

    i can tell that you did not even watch the video.
    Its been 8 min after posting, while the first video is 40 min long. The second another 19 min.
    Shad cleared your point in these videos.

    So next time watch the material before trying counter argue.
    53ap2sc6pdgv.gif
  • IzilIzil Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Xenotor wrote: »
    Izil wrote: »
    Realism doesn't transfer well into MMORPG combat as its very animation driven for the sake of balance and fun. Realistic combat will change the game for the worse, its been tried over and over and failed for many games. Realism for the most part takes the fun from combat and to be fair going from a nerd perspective its fantasy which is the idea of something different from our world, combat included

    i can tell that you did not even watch the video.
    Its been 8 min after posting, while the first video is 40 min long. The second another 19 min.
    Shad cleared your point in these videos.

    So next time watch the material before trying counter argue.

    Already watched all the vids dawg, and shad is always complaining about unrealistic stuff in games and tv shows
    Izil.png
  • XenotorXenotor Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Izil wrote: »
    Xenotor wrote: »
    Izil wrote: »
    Realism doesn't transfer well into MMORPG combat as its very animation driven for the sake of balance and fun. Realistic combat will change the game for the worse, its been tried over and over and failed for many games. Realism for the most part takes the fun from combat and to be fair going from a nerd perspective its fantasy which is the idea of something different from our world, combat included

    i can tell that you did not even watch the video.
    Its been 8 min after posting, while the first video is 40 min long. The second another 19 min.
    Shad cleared your point in these videos.

    So next time watch the material before trying counter argue.

    Already watched all the vids dawg, and shad is always complaining about unrealistic stuff in games and tv shows

    In the second video he shows side by side realistic combat moves with Elden ring combat.
    Same pacing, similar animations but they look and feel so much better.

    He argues for more realistic combat be-course they are far more immersive.
    If you watched these 2 videos in depth , you would know this.
    53ap2sc6pdgv.gif
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    The characters in a video game have superhuman strength and mobility.
    Shad's suggested animation (I just looked at the first) uses none of his strength and an ~8 lb weapon for slicing flesh. As expected.
    For those with the savage strength, wielding a 40 - 80 lb greatsword (as in the first example, I think), they will be using much wilder poise, momentum generation and balance.

    I'm sorry but for a superhuman savage, Elden Ring/ Dark Souls demonstrates more realistic battle prowess than Shad the Scab.
  • XenotorXenotor Member, Alpha Two
    Sapiverenus wrote: »
    The characters in a video game have superhuman strength and mobility.
    Shad's suggested animation (I just looked at the first) uses none of his strength and an ~8 lb weapon for slicing flesh. As expected.
    For those with the savage strength, wielding a 40 - 80 lb greatsword (as in the first example, I think), they will be using much wilder poise, momentum generation and balance.

    I'm sorry but for a superhuman savage, Elden Ring/ Dark Souls demonstrates more realistic battle prowess than Shad the Scab.

    watch the second video.
    Shad had comments like yours in the first video and made the second video to counter that.

    Also the super human ability are the skills for me.
    Thats why i am saying just the basic attack.
    Skills can go as wild as they like.
    53ap2sc6pdgv.gif
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited October 2022
    *I just looked at the first animation set in the second video

    There is no counter. You didn't read what I wrote lmao
    His animation suggestion is bad because realistically, he's an unathletic overweight dude holding an 8 lb sword that couldn't even move like the character he's comparing himself to and cannot as violently swing the weapon nor himself.
  • hleVhleV Member
    edited October 2022
    The animations could sure be smoother and I'm sure they'll be reiterated, however no weapon should be too slow, otherwise it negatively affects PvP, as you're telegraphing the attack to your opponent.
  • XenotorXenotor Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Sapiverenus wrote: »
    *I just looked at the first animation set in the second video

    There is no counter. You didn't read what I wrote lmao
    His animation suggestion is bad because realistically, he's an unathletic overweight dude holding an 8 lb sword that couldn't even move like the character he's comparing himself to without a weapon.

    at 7:18 his animation is side by side to elden ring.
    And he even said that he did it not completely right and that he is not a trained warrior.
    Elden Ring however is supposed to be a super human warrior. Yet the character swings the sword around like a complete newbie to weak to handle a bit of metal.
    Also in the first video he uses actual swords.
    Not the props.


    Just to be clear i am not saying the combat has to be realistic.
    But it has to be more realistic.

    Highly trained warriors should have moves like highly trained warriors, not like complete amateurs.
    hleV wrote: »
    The animations could sure be smoother and I'm sure they'll be reiterated, however no weapon should be too slow, otherwise it negatively affects PvP, as you're telegraphing the attack to your opponent.

    This is actually interesting, be-course i hear the opposite that attacks from big heavy weapons should be r slower for the reason that people need the ability to counter in pvp.
    But it shows there are 2 types of people who want the best for pvp in opposite directions.

    There is off-course the middle ground in everything.
    Or just a balance to it.
    No one says it has to be absolute in one direction.
    Take the best of both real life and fiction to create something better.
    53ap2sc6pdgv.gif
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    Xenotor wrote: »

    at 7:18 his animation is side by side to elden ring.
    And he even said that he did it not completely right and that he is not a trained warrior.
    Elden Ring however is supposed to be a super human warrior. Yet the character swings the sword around like a complete newbie to weak to handle a bit of metal.
    Also in the first video he uses actual swords.
    Not the props.

    You must also be unathletic to completely misjudge the animation lol

    For some of it the character could lean back more to keep their head and neck further from the enemy's reach, and use a better combo, but the point is Shad's form is weak and neutral.
    Loose and savage is just fine. It's athletic. It's more realistic than Shad's weak form. It adds more strength to each swing.

    The real issue is that they based it on something historical instead of figuring out what would be practical to the context of the character.

    They could have made an original animation that took into account the weight, strength, and intelligence of the character but they just copied something basic and historical then made it more savage looking.

    This whole situation is all wrong LMAO
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    For all his great insight, Shad is not a game designer or animator for videogames. What works in real life, would feel much too tame in a videogame and we'd have half the other side of the internet complaining that the attacks don't have enough heft.
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • XenotorXenotor Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Sapiverenus wrote: »
    Xenotor wrote: »

    at 7:18 his animation is side by side to elden ring.
    And he even said that he did it not completely right and that he is not a trained warrior.
    Elden Ring however is supposed to be a super human warrior. Yet the character swings the sword around like a complete newbie to weak to handle a bit of metal.
    Also in the first video he uses actual swords.
    Not the props.

    You must also be unathletic to completely misjudge the animation lol

    For some of it the character could lean back more to keep their head and neck further from the enemy's reach, and use a better combo, but the point is Shad's form is weak and neutral.
    Loose and savage is just fine. It's athletic. It's more realistic than Shad's weak form. It adds more strength to each swing.

    The real issue is that they based it on something historical instead of figuring out what would be practical to the context of the character.

    They could have made an original animation that took into account the weight, strength, and intelligence of the character but they just copied something basic and historical then made it more savage looking.

    This whole situation is all wrong LMAO
    Neutral is correct as nearly all his attacks are with defense in mind.
    Do you have a video of a trained modern warrior using such weapons in a more savage style?
    I am into that shit and would love to see that.

    Considering they are basic attacks, Neutral would be the correct thing to do.
    There was an mmo that had stances ( offensive , defensive, neutral) and depending on them you would have different attack animations.
    While not needed for ashes, i would love to have different animations based on buffs.
    Take a berserk buff and all your basic attacks are savage and wide.

    Activate Passive block and all your basic attacks are like shad showed with the shield in front.

    "This whole situation is all wrong LMAO"
    That i can agree to.
    Just that rather something historical, it looked to me that they checked out Elden ring and copy pasted it to ashes.
    53ap2sc6pdgv.gif
  • hleVhleV Member
    edited October 2022
    Xenotor wrote: »
    hleV wrote: »
    The animations could sure be smoother and I'm sure they'll be reiterated, however no weapon should be too slow, otherwise it negatively affects PvP, as you're telegraphing the attack to your opponent.

    This is actually interesting, be-course i hear the opposite that attacks from big heavy weapons should be r slower for the reason that people need the ability to counter in pvp.
    But it shows there are 2 types of people who want the best for pvp in opposite directions.

    There is off-course the middle ground in everything.
    Or just a balance to it.
    No one says it has to be absolute in one direction.
    Take the best of both real life and fiction to create something better.
    From what I understand, dodging in AoC gives you invincibility frames, so if a weapon is slow enough, it will be dodged. Greatsword is coming out in New World in 2 weeks, and it's a pretty slow weapon, gonna see how it does in PvP.
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited October 2022
    Xenotor wrote: »
    Sapiverenus wrote: »
    Xenotor wrote: »

    at 7:18 his animation is side by side to elden ring.
    And he even said that he did it not completely right and that he is not a trained warrior.
    Elden Ring however is supposed to be a super human warrior. Yet the character swings the sword around like a complete newbie to weak to handle a bit of metal.
    Also in the first video he uses actual swords.
    Not the props.

    You must also be unathletic to completely misjudge the animation lol

    For some of it the character could lean back more to keep their head and neck further from the enemy's reach, and use a better combo, but the point is Shad's form is weak and neutral.
    Loose and savage is just fine. It's athletic. It's more realistic than Shad's weak form. It adds more strength to each swing.

    The real issue is that they based it on something historical instead of figuring out what would be practical to the context of the character.

    They could have made an original animation that took into account the weight, strength, and intelligence of the character but they just copied something basic and historical then made it more savage looking.

    This whole situation is all wrong LMAO
    Neutral is correct as nearly all his attacks are with defense in mind.
    Do you have a video of a trained modern warrior using such weapons?
    I am into that shit and would love to see that.

    Considering they are basic attacks, Neutral would be the correct thing to do.
    There was an mmo that had stances ( offensive , defensive, neutral) and depending on them you would have different attack animations.
    While not needed for ashes, i would love to have different animations based on buffs.
    Take a berserk buff and all your basic attacks are savage and wide.

    Activate Passive block and all your basic attacks are like shad showed with the shield in front.

    "This whole situation is all wrong LMAO"
    That i can agree to.
    Just that rather something historical, it looked to me that they checked out Elden ring and copy pasted it to ashes.

    Warriors and savage superhumans don't exist. Maybe one day. Here is some mobile strength:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFoUOen7Y24

    The neutral refers to neutral spine. Basic doesn't mean weak. Strength is relative to one's own body mass; for a superhuman the savage movements and postures are natural and relatively easy, even advantageous to battle relevant movesets that a game dev team won't think of.

    In athletics, the body, there is a rebound effect. Like a rubber band or ball. This effect can be used in different ways.
    Momentum can be used in many different ways too. Some game dev team will not think of the ways a superhuman ''hollow' or 'tarnished' in a gritty wartorn world in a foreign dimension with a huge heavy weapon would actually move.
    There are other bio physical physiological psychological shit that a game dev team, nor you or I will think of.
    There's more to reality than some plain basic historically accurate braindead weak-bodied cutting weapon moveset.

    An alteration to moveset based on the 'influence' on them sounds alright.
    I'd rather Fighter/Fighter subtype be called 'Rager'. . . actually 'Savage' seems good. Moves with Savage ferocity. And Movesets altered 'procedurally' based on Attributes and perhaps attitudes.

    Anyway it's all too much to ask for from a simple steven studio. No game dev studio can go very deep and be on-point objectively. Leave that shit to NASA

    I guess stance shift for moveset shift makes perfect sense though. . . perfect sense. Easy enough to do. Animation canceling won't be a thing and that makes sense.
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