Iframes and use

I think toons should be able to catch arrows like Xena.

Vaknar wrote: »

In case some of those here haven't seen this, you can see what Steven has said regarding iframes in the past here, on the wiki! https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Evasion

According to wiki, I feel the iframe/evasion design in Steven's mind is very good already, but Ashes of Creation have real healer classes which might make combat extreme longer than expecting and add iframe/evasion on top of it will need to be very carefully with it, it might make some contents less fun than expecting.

In my mind, iframe/evasion is more for dps classes or say low survive ability classes and light/medium armor type, which means a tank equip full heavy armor should less rely on iframe/evasion(not saying tank or heavy armor shouldn't have the iframe/evasion benefit at all) than a thief equip full medium armor and iframe/evasion should be capped not only by frames or time but also like how many hits or how much damage or the skill type or the damage type should the dodge/roll or evasion skills able to evade to further tune the iframe/evasion in detail.

Dizz wrote: »

Vaknar wrote: »

In case some of those here haven't seen this, you can see what Steven has said regarding iframes in the past here, on the wiki! https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Evasion

According to wiki, I feel the iframe/evasion design in Steven's mind is very good already, but Ashes of Creation have real healer classes which might make combat extreme longer than expecting and add iframe/evasion on top of it will need to be very carefully with it, it might make some contents less fun than expecting.

In my mind, iframe/evasion is more for dps classes or say low survive ability classes and light/medium armor type, which means a tank equip full heavy armor should less rely on iframe/evasion(not saying tank or heavy armor shouldn't have the iframe/evasion benefit at all) than a thief equip full medium armor and iframe/evasion should be capped not only by frames or time but also like how many hits or how much damage or the skill type or the damage type should the dodge/roll or evasion skills able to evade to further tune the iframe/evasion in detail.

I agree with the class element and being careful with it that is why i mentioned in my post about it being limited to a certain number. The issue with some mmorpgs more focused on action combat allows people to chain these iframes together and it feels meh when they can chain it or use it every few seconds.

Like i 100% want some iframes but i want combat to be more skillful than spammy. Survivability should be more around skill, blocks, dodges(movement spacing), Dodges (a few iframes with proper CDs).

It does add a much higher skill gab when people can spam iframe dodges, but I don't feel it increasing skill ceiling in a good way from that. Creates a kind of frustrating feeling.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

Vaknar wrote: »

In case some of those here haven't seen this, you can see what Steven has said regarding iframes in the past here, on the wiki! https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Evasion

According to wiki, I feel the iframe/evasion design in Steven's mind is very good already, but Ashes of Creation have real healer classes which might make combat extreme longer than expecting and add iframe/evasion on top of it will need to be very carefully with it, it might make some contents less fun than expecting.

In my mind, iframe/evasion is more for dps classes or say low survive ability classes and light/medium armor type, which means a tank equip full heavy armor should less rely on iframe/evasion(not saying tank or heavy armor shouldn't have the iframe/evasion benefit at all) than a thief equip full medium armor and iframe/evasion should be capped not only by frames or time but also like how many hits or how much damage or the skill type or the damage type should the dodge/roll or evasion skills able to evade to further tune the iframe/evasion in detail.

I agree with the class element and being careful with it that is why i mentioned in my post about it being limited to a certain number. The issue with some mmorpgs more focused on action combat allows people to chain these iframes together and it feels meh when they can chain it or use it every few seconds.

Like i 100% want some iframes but i want combat to be more skillful than spammy. Survivability should be more around skill, blocks, dodges(movement spacing), Dodges (a few iframes with proper CDs).

It does add a much higher skill gab when people can spam iframe dodges, but I don't feel it increasing skill ceiling in a good way from that. Creates a kind of frustrating feeling.

That is depends on resource management that something need to test over and over, so I hope they will put it in A2 or Beta for people to test how much is good how much feel bad.

Dizz wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

Vaknar wrote: »

In case some of those here haven't seen this, you can see what Steven has said regarding iframes in the past here, on the wiki! https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Evasion

According to wiki, I feel the iframe/evasion design in Steven's mind is very good already, but Ashes of Creation have real healer classes which might make combat extreme longer than expecting and add iframe/evasion on top of it will need to be very carefully with it, it might make some contents less fun than expecting.

In my mind, iframe/evasion is more for dps classes or say low survive ability classes and light/medium armor type, which means a tank equip full heavy armor should less rely on iframe/evasion(not saying tank or heavy armor shouldn't have the iframe/evasion benefit at all) than a thief equip full medium armor and iframe/evasion should be capped not only by frames or time but also like how many hits or how much damage or the skill type or the damage type should the dodge/roll or evasion skills able to evade to further tune the iframe/evasion in detail.

I agree with the class element and being careful with it that is why i mentioned in my post about it being limited to a certain number. The issue with some mmorpgs more focused on action combat allows people to chain these iframes together and it feels meh when they can chain it or use it every few seconds.

Like i 100% want some iframes but i want combat to be more skillful than spammy. Survivability should be more around skill, blocks, dodges(movement spacing), Dodges (a few iframes with proper CDs).

It does add a much higher skill gab when people can spam iframe dodges, but I don't feel it increasing skill ceiling in a good way from that. Creates a kind of frustrating feeling.

That is depends on resource management that something need to test over and over, so I hope they will put it in A2 or Beta for people to test how much is good how much feel bad.

Ya A2 is where things are really going to get going with good proper feedback. Sometimes its harder to voice when you don't know what can happen or you are just voicing based on guesses.

Forum is going to really blow up in A2 cause everyone will have an opinions on everything under a microscopic lens and their view points.

Solmyr

Not going to comment on balance, but I really hope they don't make the dodge animation a roll.

Rolling during combat almost always looks silly, no matter how polished you make the animation. A side step\duck or even a slide would look way more convincing.

Solmyr wrote: »

Not going to comment on balance, but I really hope they don't make the dodge animation a roll.

Rolling during combat almost always looks silly, no matter how polished you make the animation. A side step\duck or even a slide would look way more convincing.

9001% agree with this, so many more cool and fun ways they can do this.

Sliding from stand still would look shit.

Neurath wrote: »

Sliding from stand still would look shit.

It would not, but you are free to explain why it would and why they would not have animations inbetween. If you are worried about momentum you can say the same thing about rolling from standing...

I don't think it's which is better or more convincing, I prefer each archetype has its own dodge animation to represent its own identity, and minor tuned details base on armor type and weapon type.

For example I'd like to see thief's dodge animation looks like bloodhound's step in Elden Ring, mage's dodge animation looks like a fast short distance teleport, and if thief or mage wear heavy armors or use heavy weapons will make their dodge less mobile or less distance or less iframe to dodge incoming damage etc.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Sliding from stand still would look shit.

It would not, but you are free to explain why it would and why they would not have animations inbetween. If you are worried about momentum you can say the same thing about rolling from standing...

Have you tried sliding without running? There is a reason for the army to say 'duck, roll and cover'. The army doesn't say 'slip, slide and shoot'.

Neurath wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Sliding from stand still would look shit.

It would not, but you are free to explain why it would and why they would not have animations inbetween. If you are worried about momentum you can say the same thing about rolling from standing...

Have you tried sliding without running? There is a reason for the army to say 'duck, roll and cover'. The army doesn't say 'slip, slide and shoot'.

I challenge you to roll standing up without momentum in real life.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Sliding from stand still would look shit.

It would not, but you are free to explain why it would and why they would not have animations inbetween. If you are worried about momentum you can say the same thing about rolling from standing...

Have you tried sliding without running? There is a reason for the army to say 'duck, roll and cover'. The army doesn't say 'slip, slide and shoot'.

I challenge you to roll standing up without momentum in real life.

Ok now that I've just done that, now what?

The kinetics of a physical roll come from the speed at which the person lowers their upper body and the arc of their head and shoulders, it's just a tucked cartwheel. Ever watched any gymnastics floor exercises? With weapons this would be even easier (the actual rolling part, not the hand positioning).

But more seriously I guess this means the real answer is cartwheeling and backflipping.

You get momentum with the duck which translates into the roll and then the momentum can either put you back on your feet or into a prone position.

Sliding from a standstill can break your hips or your legs and also get you shot in the face.

Do a roll is easier than do a slide without moving.

For example:

https://youtu.be/8drDerhPOj0?t=50
at 0:49 don't know why it won't jump to the time stamp I set.

I can't find the slide/dash tutorial video but I saw those videos before while learning traditional martial arts just for keep healthy.

But they both not really for dodge/avoid incoming attack because they both expose your weakness in different way if you guys want to talk about in that realistic level, in real combat slightly move/turn you body away or deflect the attack are the better ways to avoid incoming attack to do damage to you in close fight, the most easy way is block it.

But we don't really make the most easy way "block" good in game, why? because it's make things too easy and boring to play, you forget it's a game, the dodge animations don't need to be super real it's just need to base on reality enough and look great/cool.

Neurath wrote: »

You get momentum with the duck which translates into the roll and then the momentum can either put you back on your feet or into a prone position.

Sliding from a standstill can break your hips or your legs and also get you shot in the face.

Key words "duck"

So now that you are talking about transitions between standing still and rolling, you should be able to piece together for an animator how they can create transition between standing still and before the motion of them actually sliding...

I have no qualms with the game looking like a game. The issue I have is the old complaints of 'floaty combat' and in my eyes, random sliding would be more towards the 'floaty combat' side.

Neurath wrote: »

I have no qualms with the game looking like a game. The issue I have is the old complaints of 'floaty combat' and in my eyes, random sliding would be more towards the 'floaty combat' side.

in my eyes sliding works completely fine and has been done in many games... I don't understand why you look at sliding without any transition movements.

Transition is why any animation is not going to look floaty, rolling would look floaty without it.

Azherae

Dizz wrote: »

Do a roll is easier than do a slide without moving.

For example:
https://youtu.be/8drDerhPOj0?t=50
at 0:49 don't know why it won't jump to the time stamp I set.

I can't find the slide/dash tutorial video but I saw those videos before while learning traditional martial arts just for keep healthy.

But they both not really for dodge/avoid incoming attack because they both expose your weakness in different way if you guys want to talk about in that realistic level, in real combat slightly move/turn you body away or deflect the attack are the better ways to avoid incoming attack to do damage to you in close fight, the most easy way is block it.

But we don't really make the most easy way "block" good in game, why? because it's make things too easy and boring to play, you forget it's a game, the dodge animations don't need to be super real it's just need to base on reality enough and look great/cool.

Maybe we can get both.

The point of rolling in most games is to dodge AND move. Games can and do implement lots of evasive mechanics where the character does very little movement, but usually that's not what players want for the game type we're dealing with, cause of things like "AoE boss attacks" and 'Ranged characters kiting you for an entire TTK'.