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Stealth/Sneaking Question

TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
edited October 2022 in General Discussion
Couldn't find any information about this on Wiki other than Rogue class being able to use it? Will it be a thing?
In ESO, anyone or any class can go in stealth while in PvP/PvE areas to not get spotted by enemies (Once caught/engaged in a combat you can't go back into sneaking for X seconds)

To me, It adds immersion to be able to hide from an enemy, spy on enemies, hide from enemies trying to catch you, or to simply not get caught killing/stealing etc.
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Comments

  • SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Rogues will have some form of stealth, and I believe Rangers will have some form of camouflage. I don't think we have heard anything at all to indicate that anyone else has any.
  • I prefer only Rogues to have this skill.
    Because I want to make alts and it feels better for me if there is a big difference between them.
    The more more unique and special each class is, the better.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Strevi wrote: »
    I prefer only Rogues to have this skill.
    Because I want to make alts and it feels better for me if there is a big difference between them.
    The more more unique and special each class is, the better.

    Well, i'm not asking for a skill though. You stealth when you crouch automatically in ESO. In ESO Nightblades are the Rogues and they have longer stealths than normal classes with a lot more advantages to get in and out of combat.

    In my opinion, being able to be seen at all times is immersion breaking. You should be able to hide if needed using any class.
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  • I want to know what differentiates the Rogue and Ranger stealth.
  • My understanding is that the rogue's stealth will be like "bending light" like the Predator as opposed to full invisibility. Although I usually play Rogue classes I'm looking forward to this change, I've always thought it was a bit too easy to sneak up on a player being fully invisible, it'd be a nice challenge to know that if my enemy is paying attention they may actually see me coming.
    The old world is dying, the new world struggles to be born, now is the time of monsters.
  • I think any class should have the ability to camouflage but it depends on that class type and then if you spec into it as to how camouflaged you are.

    Rogues - should be able to look like the predator but if they spec into it can go full invisible. In predator mode it would take 2 - 3 seconds to stealth. If they spec into it, 1 - 1.5 seconds. As a rogue they should be able to move while in stealth and be the typical idea of a rogue.

    Rogue sub type - Need to spec into it. Would acquire a lesser version of the predator stealth. Would take 3 - 5 seconds to change. Somewhat dependent on what they are next to.

    Rangers - They can acquire general color patterns, nothing too detailed, of things they are next to. Something similar to an octopus. It would take 4 - 6 seconds to stealth and can move at will but being next to something gives better results. If they spec into it they could look like the predator. Would take 3 - 4 seconds to stealth. They can move while in stealth and lay traps. Not dependent on being close to anything.

    Ranger sub type - Need to spec into it. Would get a lesser version of the "octopus" stealth but take 6 - 8 seconds to change. They can move but getting too far from bushes, trees or whatever would cause the camouflage to not have anything to mimic.

    All other classes and ranger/rogue sub types not spec'd into camo - These people can camouflage in certain areas. Say in a jungle or forest they would use vegetation, bushes, leaves, moss and whatever is there. Depending on how they look or where they stand they could be hard to detect. If they are in a desert standing on sand with no vegetation around then they don't camouflage, nothing to use. They can move while camouflaged but too much or too fast movement causes the camouflage to start falling off. 10 seconds to camo up, 8 seconds if they spec into it plus a better camo job.
  • VyrilVyril Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Hard pass on full invisible stealth. In open world PvP the defender on a gank is already at a severe disadvantage because the attacker can be the first to engage. Now give the PK the perfect lineup and you will likely stand little to no chance.
    In my opinion, being able to be seen at all times is immersion breaking. You should be able to hide if needed using any class.

    Immersion breaking? Last I knew you could see solid objects in the world, albeit a magical spell as the exception. I honestly think it's immersion breaking to think people can stand directly in front of you and not see them.
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  • Personally I don't think believe there would be an issue in game to have full stealth since Steven has already stated there would be ways to detect stealthed players.

    "There will also be utility skills that will reveal stealthed players, such as on the Ranger archetype.[4][5][6]"

    However, to my knowledge based on the wiki, we won't have full stealth which is ok aswell. I spent alot on my time in cyrodill within eso as a nightblade. You had to b mindful of those who you attacked since there were many ways to reveal a stealthed individual like:

    *detection potion
    *caltrops
    *Ability called evil hunter
    *Ability called magelight
    *etc

    All classes had some way to deal with it and if you weren't someone built for stealth then chances are you'd be spotted by someone just casually riding pass you on the rode.
    Having full stealth also helped you to not just get ganked by a group of players passing through the zone as long as you stealthed up quick enough. Aside note, it'd definitely help rogues out alot in order to disengage when a fight looks hairy. If there is a permanent shimmer or something wherever the player is, I don't think it'll b hard to stay on then if your on action camera, and if being hit while stealthed rips you from stealth then use large aoe in that area and now they are unstealthed and probably dead if they are going the traditional route and making rogue squishy and burst damage heavy.

    All in all, I don't think it would be an issue to have in game but if it isn't, you wouldn't hear any complaints from me.
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Last we heard Steven said stealth will not be full invisibility
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    What I'd like to see is basically Rogues becoming transparent (à la WoW) when activated (even whilst moving) but they must have a slower speed.

    Ranger's camouflage should work to make the Ranger basically invisible/looking like a rock or tree, or bush, but immediately breaks if they move or attack.
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  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    Vyril wrote: »
    Hard pass on full invisible stealth. In open world PvP the defender on a gank is already at a severe disadvantage because the attacker can be the first to engage. Now give the PK the perfect lineup and you will likely stand little to no chance.
    In my opinion, being able to be seen at all times is immersion breaking. You should be able to hide if needed using any class.

    Immersion breaking? Last I knew you could see solid objects in the world, albeit a magical spell as the exception. I honestly think it's immersion breaking to think people can stand directly in front of you and not see them.

    No one said you should be able to go into stealth or be invisible while standing next to your enemy though...
    There should be a detection range. "If you're X ft close to your enemy you'll be spotted."
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  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    Settite wrote: »
    Personally I don't think believe there would be an issue in game to have full stealth since Steven has already stated there would be ways to detect stealthed players.

    "There will also be utility skills that will reveal stealthed players, such as on the Ranger archetype.[4][5][6]"

    However, to my knowledge based on the wiki, we won't have full stealth which is ok aswell. I spent alot on my time in cyrodill within eso as a nightblade. You had to b mindful of those who you attacked since there were many ways to reveal a stealthed individual like:

    *detection potion
    *caltrops
    *Ability called evil hunter
    *Ability called magelight
    *etc

    All classes had some way to deal with it and if you weren't someone built for stealth then chances are you'd be spotted by someone just casually riding pass you on the rode.
    Having full stealth also helped you to not just get ganked by a group of players passing through the zone as long as you stealthed up quick enough. Aside note, it'd definitely help rogues out alot in order to disengage when a fight looks hairy. If there is a permanent shimmer or something wherever the player is, I don't think it'll b hard to stay on then if your on action camera, and if being hit while stealthed rips you from stealth then use large aoe in that area and now they are unstealthed and probably dead if they are going the traditional route and making rogue squishy and burst damage heavy.

    All in all, I don't think it would be an issue to have in game but if it isn't, you wouldn't hear any complaints from me.

    Cyrodiil has been my home for YEARS. As a mag sorc that is currently the weakest class in the game, sometimes i end up being chased by zergs. And if my mag runs out, I need to hide. So i try to get away as far as possible and then go into stealth and hide behind some rock.
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  • Settite wrote: »
    Personally I don't think believe there would be an issue in game to have full stealth since Steven has already stated there would be ways to detect stealthed players.

    "There will also be utility skills that will reveal stealthed players, such as on the Ranger archetype.[4][5][6]"

    However, to my knowledge based on the wiki, we won't have full stealth which is ok aswell. I spent alot on my time in cyrodill within eso as a nightblade. You had to b mindful of those who you attacked since there were many ways to reveal a stealthed individual like:

    *detection potion
    *caltrops
    *Ability called evil hunter
    *Ability called magelight
    *etc

    All classes had some way to deal with it and if you weren't someone built for stealth then chances are you'd be spotted by someone just casually riding pass you on the rode.
    Having full stealth also helped you to not just get ganked by a group of players passing through the zone as long as you stealthed up quick enough. Aside note, it'd definitely help rogues out alot in order to disengage when a fight looks hairy. If there is a permanent shimmer or something wherever the player is, I don't think it'll b hard to stay on then if your on action camera, and if being hit while stealthed rips you from stealth then use large aoe in that area and now they are unstealthed and probably dead if they are going the traditional route and making rogue squishy and burst damage heavy.

    All in all, I don't think it would be an issue to have in game but if it isn't, you wouldn't hear any complaints from me.

    Cyrodiil has been my home for YEARS. As a mag sorc that is currently the weakest class in the game, sometimes i end up being chased by zergs. And if my mag runs out, I need to hide. So i try to get away as far as possible and then go into stealth and hide behind some rock.

    Maan I use to live fighting mages 1v1 before I stopped playing years ago. It was some of the most stimulating pvp iv had. Hopefully I can recreate a bit of that feeling in ashes.
  • Rogues not having full stealth would be a waste of a class mechanic. Spotting something that isn't fully invisible is surprisingly easy. Apex Legends character Mirage use to take on a very see through predator look. In that high speed, fast turning, light flashing game, Mirage was not hard to spot at all. It was so easy that not long into the game character selection numbers for Mirage had dropped dramatically because it brought nothing to the table. It's ultimate ability, invisibility while popping a bunch of visible clones, was literally useless. Even with the clone distraction spotting Mirage was fairly simple. They made a lot of changes but the main one that made that character viable was full invisibility.
    There's another game called Predator based on the movie. The only time it's invisibility was effective was at range and not moving. Once the Predator moved seeing it and landing shots was not difficult at all. Up close, even when not moving, the Predator was quickly spotted and downed.
    AoC wants to use the predator look instead of full invisibility? That's a lot of dead rogues. Players will see the rogue, do an aoe, or free fire, attack to pop the stealth and down goes hollywood.
  • Rhorden wrote: »
    Rogues not having full stealth would be a waste of a class mechanic. Spotting something that isn't fully invisible is surprisingly easy. Apex Legends character Mirage use to take on a very see through predator look. In that high speed, fast turning, light flashing game, Mirage was not hard to spot at all. It was so easy that not long into the game character selection numbers for Mirage had dropped dramatically because it brought nothing to the table. It's ultimate ability, invisibility while popping a bunch of visible clones, was literally useless. Even with the clone distraction spotting Mirage was fairly simple. They made a lot of changes but the main one that made that character viable was full invisibility.
    There's another game called Predator based on the movie. The only time it's invisibility was effective was at range and not moving. Once the Predator moved seeing it and landing shots was not difficult at all. Up close, even when not moving, the Predator was quickly spotted and downed.
    AoC wants to use the predator look instead of full invisibility? That's a lot of dead rogues. Players will see the rogue, do an aoe, or free fire, attack to pop the stealth and down goes hollywood.

    I wholeheartedly agree.
  • IskiabIskiab Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    I hope they have invisibility/stealth.

    Usually I jump between playing healers like druids and archmages, rogue types or bards. If there's a combination that heals and has stealth I'll be all over it.

    ESO nightblade as a healer was fun, hopefully AoC has something similar.
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Im glad they won't have full invisibility. Stealth doesn't mean invisible. I'm sick of rogues sitting in the middle of a sunny street pretending they're "stealthy". I hope there's nuance to it for once. Actually using cover, shadows etc.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    This is one of those threads where the only satisfying answer is that we'll need to test the stealth capability.

    We just won't know until we experience it. Then we can provide feedback.
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  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    This is one of those threads where the only satisfying answer is that we'll need to test the stealth capability.

    We just won't know until we experience it. Then we can provide feedback.

    Hopefully soon!
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  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Hopefully soon!

    Right?? ;)

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • Sorry if it's been said already, but my 2 cents is that I'm fine with invisibility type stealth but not if it's persistent. I've accepted it for a long time in my favorite MMO, DAoC, even though it creates plenty of problems, but it's one of my least favorite things in ESO PvP is actually the proliferation of invisibility.

    At least in DAoC, it's relegated to specific classes, but in ESO, you just never ever know where people are or how many people are around. Since every single player can do it effectively, you end up with large groups that could be standing right in front of you that are all stealthed. It makes engaging in fights annoying because no amount of awareness of your surroundings can prevent you from getting jumped on by people who happened to be right next to you the whole time. Beyond that, people use stealth to sit inside keeps forever after their faction has lost those keeps. Kill someone inside, go back into stealth, wait for people to give up looking for you, kill someone else inside, etc. That sort of thing is pretty annoying, IMO.

    My preference would be for stealth to be limited classes having some short term invisibility and/or using the actual terrain for stealth. For this latter point, I think New World does it really well, actually. In New World, if you crouch or lay down in overgrowth, other players can't see you. This makes far more since than ESO's "crouching makes everyone invisible no matter the terrain" stuff, and it yields far more interesting gameplay.
  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Sorry if it's been said already, but my 2 cents is that I'm fine with invisibility type stealth but not if it's persistent. I've accepted it for a long time in my favorite MMO, DAoC, even though it creates plenty of problems, but it's one of my least favorite things in ESO PvP is actually the proliferation of invisibility.

    At least in DAoC, it's relegated to specific classes, but in ESO, you just never ever know where people are or how many people are around. Since every single player can do it effectively, you end up with large groups that could be standing right in front of you that are all stealthed. It makes engaging in fights annoying because no amount of awareness of your surroundings can prevent you from getting jumped on by people who happened to be right next to you the whole time. Beyond that, people use stealth to sit inside keeps forever after their faction has lost those keeps. Kill someone inside, go back into stealth, wait for people to give up looking for you, kill someone else inside, etc. That sort of thing is pretty annoying, IMO.

    My preference would be for stealth to be limited classes having some short term invisibility and/or using the actual terrain for stealth. For this latter point, I think New World does it really well, actually. In New World, if you crouch or lay down in overgrowth, other players can't see you. This makes far more since than ESO's "crouching makes everyone invisible no matter the terrain" stuff, and it yields far more interesting gameplay.

    In my soon to be 9 years of ESO PvP I have never seen large groups/zerg balls stealthing up together.

    Stealth is mainly an advantage for solo PvP'ers and Nightblades to either gank or to hide ;)
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  • IskiabIskiab Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Sorry if it's been said already, but my 2 cents is that I'm fine with invisibility type stealth but not if it's persistent. I've accepted it for a long time in my favorite MMO, DAoC, even though it creates plenty of problems, but it's one of my least favorite things in ESO PvP is actually the proliferation of invisibility.

    At least in DAoC, it's relegated to specific classes, but in ESO, you just never ever know where people are or how many people are around. Since every single player can do it effectively, you end up with large groups that could be standing right in front of you that are all stealthed. It makes engaging in fights annoying because no amount of awareness of your surroundings can prevent you from getting jumped on by people who happened to be right next to you the whole time. Beyond that, people use stealth to sit inside keeps forever after their faction has lost those keeps. Kill someone inside, go back into stealth, wait for people to give up looking for you, kill someone else inside, etc. That sort of thing is pretty annoying, IMO.

    My preference would be for stealth to be limited classes having some short term invisibility and/or using the actual terrain for stealth. For this latter point, I think New World does it really well, actually. In New World, if you crouch or lay down in overgrowth, other players can't see you. This makes far more since than ESO's "crouching makes everyone invisible no matter the terrain" stuff, and it yields far more interesting gameplay.

    In my soon to be 9 years of ESO PvP I have never seen large groups/zerg balls stealthing up together.

    Stealth is mainly an advantage for solo PvP'ers and Nightblades to either gank or to hide ;)

    Nah, I did it a bunch of times for fun. Group of 20 in stealth and we jumped out at the same time attacking a group coming around the corner.

    It was fun as heck, but they have a good point.

    I don't know what the middle ground is. Maybe like Age of Conan where everyone can stealth, but moving while stealthed consumes resources? I don't know. It's a nice feature for everyone to have, you can hide while going to the washroom. Stealth itself is defensive, it's only offensive when you combine it with movement.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Hmm, nobody linked to the wiki?

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Stealth

    You won't be completely invisible, there will be ways for players to "feel out" where a stealthed character is. Some abilities will reveal stealthed enemies, Rangers will get one.

    If you take Rogue as a secondary class, you can incorporate augments into your abilities to grant you stealth.

    Rangers get camouflage rather than stealth.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Camouflage

    The difference is that when you get close to a Ranger, they are revealed. A Rogue stays concealed when close. That fits with the role of a Rogue sneaking up into melee, and a Ranger sniping from a distant hidden location.

    I think a Ranger/Rogue (Scout) would make for a very interesting stealth-heavy ranged character.
     
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  • Iskiab wrote: »
    Sorry if it's been said already, but my 2 cents is that I'm fine with invisibility type stealth but not if it's persistent. I've accepted it for a long time in my favorite MMO, DAoC, even though it creates plenty of problems, but it's one of my least favorite things in ESO PvP is actually the proliferation of invisibility.

    At least in DAoC, it's relegated to specific classes, but in ESO, you just never ever know where people are or how many people are around. Since every single player can do it effectively, you end up with large groups that could be standing right in front of you that are all stealthed. It makes engaging in fights annoying because no amount of awareness of your surroundings can prevent you from getting jumped on by people who happened to be right next to you the whole time. Beyond that, people use stealth to sit inside keeps forever after their faction has lost those keeps. Kill someone inside, go back into stealth, wait for people to give up looking for you, kill someone else inside, etc. That sort of thing is pretty annoying, IMO.

    My preference would be for stealth to be limited classes having some short term invisibility and/or using the actual terrain for stealth. For this latter point, I think New World does it really well, actually. In New World, if you crouch or lay down in overgrowth, other players can't see you. This makes far more since than ESO's "crouching makes everyone invisible no matter the terrain" stuff, and it yields far more interesting gameplay.

    In my soon to be 9 years of ESO PvP I have never seen large groups/zerg balls stealthing up together.

    Stealth is mainly an advantage for solo PvP'ers and Nightblades to either gank or to hide ;)

    Nah, I did it a bunch of times for fun. Group of 20 in stealth and we jumped out at the same time attacking a group coming around the corner.

    It was fun as heck, but they have a good point.

    I don't know what the middle ground is. Maybe like Age of Conan where everyone can stealth, but moving while stealthed consumes resources? I don't know. It's a nice feature for everyone to have, you can hide while going to the washroom. Stealth itself is defensive, it's only offensive when you combine it with movement.

    I believe that might be a bit of an irregularity then. In my time playing nightblade I never experienced that, nor did any of my guildmates. However if 20 nightblades are lying in wait then hey that's part of the game. I'd just let my campaigns zerg know and keep it pushing. On top of that I don't believe something like that would occur in ashes since you aren't incentivized to jump greens and if your a combatant then you've already agreed to pvp.
  • Can someone point me to a video, or a page, where Steven confirms that rogues will not bee 100% transparent? Not invisible, but transparent. Also anything to do with rogues having the predator look? I am looking currently but there's a lot to go through and I didn't see anything on the wiki page about "predator" look or shimmering, etc.

    "Stealth is 100% an option in the game. It's not going to render yourself or the individual who uses the stealth completely obscured. You're still going to be able to identify- there's going to be utility skills that can reveal stealth from a PvP perspective. There's going to be perceptions that certain NPCs have that can see through stealth, like Tremor Sense or Life Sense. There are elements of mechanics that relate to stealth and how it is balanced in the game. It's not going to be similar to stealth that's been found in other games where the target is rendered completely invisible- they can make it past every enemy NPC or monster: they can use stealth at all times. These are elements that is a tit for tat. These are components of class-kits that are going to have corresponding counters as it relates to other classes as well.[4]" – Steven Sharif

    "Stealth does not render a player completely invisible.[1]
    There will be indicators that can help players "feel out" where stealthed individuals may be.[3]"

    "True stealth resides within the realm of the Rogue (primary) archetype.[6]
    There will be counter-stealth mechanics for sure. That's just a natural balancing act of stealth. But additionally with regards to you know secondary classes, one of those aspects is augments represent the secondary class and some of the- one of the most fundamental aspects of a rogue is stealth whether it be actual invisibility or the ability to sneak around in the shadows or something. So you can almost certainly count on the fact that should you go a secondary class of rogue that there will be the ability to influence your action items from your primary class with the stealth modifier.[7]" – Steven Sharif

    Having a hard time finding everything about this class and looking at what was quoted in the wiki leads me to a different perspective based on his word choice and phrasing. This could be pointing to rogues actually having the ability to be 100% transparent.
    If you are looking out a glass window to a static environment, say a city street, with no flexible objects, only cars, poles, solid buildings, concrete, etc, could you tell if the wind was blowing? If you add in trees, trash, dust and people, you would know the wind is blowing, but you can't see it.
    I think this may be what he is getting at. A rogue passing to close to a tree could scuff it, walking through a bush would cause it to move, only footsteps where the rogue is currently standing would be visible, noise from any of that, or the sound of jumping off something and impacting the ground, would also be an indicator. The "completely obscure" comment would align with this and put everything else into a perspective that would make sense.
  • IskiabIskiab Member, Alpha Two
    No idea, but with it being alpha I wouldn't put too much stock in anything being said. Alpha means anything can change, when there's a rogue reveal we will know more.
  • Iskiab wrote: »
    No idea, but with it being alpha I wouldn't put too much stock in anything being said. Alpha means anything can change, when there's a rogue reveal we will know more.

    I agree. I just like theory crafting and the mental dissection that goes with it. Quite often I get results different than most popular trends and have better results. But like you said, anything can change.
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Rhorden wrote: »
    Can someone point me to a video, or a page, where Steven confirms that rogues will not bee 100% transparent? Not invisible, but transparent. Also anything to do with rogues having the predator look?

    I dont I have the time to find the exact one but the most recent mention I remember was an answer to a q and a section of one of thr monthly streams(I think in 2022). The predator thing I think is a super old proposed concept video that people keep referring to and thinking is set in stone. I might be wrong on that part
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