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Flagging System
Axonen
Member
Please take a short look at it. It may be a little better solution for the flagging system :v:
What do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7RlhjaOmSE&ab_channel=Surma
What do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7RlhjaOmSE&ab_channel=Surma 1
Comments
He suggests that you literally always lose 100% of items on death, while still giving you the flagged state if you win (which makes you a ffa target). I do not see how this system is supposed to dissuade "griefing" in any way. I only see it as a punishment for the green player.
The game is PvX, stop trying to change it.
i think he is utterly wrong
Group Ganking
1) Status Penalty - Why should the green player be penalized at all? They didn't initiate the combat. They aren't being the d-bag. I don't think green should turn to purple at all. They are being penalized for literally doing nothing wrong or aggressive. Yet they turn purple or die and lose loot. There is ABSOLUTELY no upside for the green player. I don't feel green should ever turn purple or red if they aren't the aggressor.
2) Loot Penalty - I understand they want to encourage fighting but it starts off with a penalty against the nonaggressor. What? If you fight back you only lose a quarter of your loot. If you don't fight back you lose half. HALF? You decide not to contribute to the fight so you take a larger penalty? Something is very wrong with this. I know the attacker is putting his loot on the line but the attacker is most likely going to wait for the right opportunity and unload with a burst putting the fight heavily in his favor.
3A) Why should I not gank people? Here's what I see happening, and I will do this unless something changes. I will roll with couple of my friends. We come across anyone, literally anyone because why not, and I attack with friend 1 joining in. This guy has no chance of surviving. He fights back to lose less loot but dies anyways. Friend 2, not involved in the fight, picks up said loot. We move on and continue this process until I die with friend 1 getting the kill. Friend 2 picks up all the loot. I get back, pick up my loot that has been guarded for me so I lose nothing. I am now green, or less red, and we carry on. Or we can farm deaths from mobs , maybe each other, while we guard items and now we are all good to go.
3B) I tag people hoping they fight back. If they do friends 1 and 2 jump in and kill the guy. We aren't in a group so they stay purple. I am naked except for a crap weapon. Got nothing to lose.
Solo Ganking
I'm underpowered, or just not good at pvp. I see someone gathering and I ignore it until I see that person fighting a mob. I switch to tab target to ensure my attacks hit only the person and unload on him for the kill. Pick up loot. I suspect this will be the most common type of killing.
Are there any safeguards in place for people carrying high quantities of items if they are killed? I use to farm around 2k-3k herbs on a farming run. To lose even a quarter of that would encourage ganking on anyone suspected of farming.
Maybe there are things I have missed about how this system is going to work but, at the moment, it seems pretty straight forward with a few work arounds that encourage killing.
I don't think it's about changing an undeveloped system. It's more of reaching the best theory before implementation to hopefully need less time time in R&D to reach the intended goal.
All ideas are good to put forward as it could lead to a solution or better idea to this or a different problem the devs have that we know nothing about.
While I agree player design is sometimes better then actual dev design. I think overflowing potential “fixes” isn’t really a solution.
That video literally redesigns a system to make it so no PvP is ever incentivized. The goal of the current system is not to stop PvP it’s to stop griefing. I think people forget that…
Fighting back is encouraged because it halves the death penalty. You are rewarded for fighting back, not punished.
You can obviously dislike the death penalties as a whole, but that's a whole different discussion. I'm not sure if I understand these situations. If your victims fight back, that's just a pvp. They lost less stuff, you're not a PKer. If the mob kills your victim you don't get corruption. You don't see your victim's hp so it'd be difficult to figure out when exactly you gotta hit him to avoid getting corruption.
If you got corruption, you'll get hunted and you'll lose time removing your XP debt.
What I was getting at is why shouldn't ganking happen on a large scale? This system is suppose to be there to discourage griefing but still be lenient enough to allow for pvp. For normal random encounters this system looks like it would work well but when you think larger, this system is flawed.
Like I said I am ok with this system because it very much favors what I am going to do. I pointed out some obvious issues, specifically 3B, that will lead to player farming groups running around and doing repeat killings on everyone in that area. I get that is pvp but is also a very bad system for anyone in that area.
I will have a guy that is dedicated to be corrupted. Wont be geared, wont worry about clearing corruption. The sole purpose of this guy is to start a fight and get the target to engage therefor turning him purple. Once that happens my teammates come in and finish the kill. If he doesn't engage then it's a long slow fight to kill him. Either way he drops loot and we move to the next unlucky soul or run across the same guy again.
In WoW BFA this exact scenario happened where large groups of players would run together in a certain area and continuously farm all players they could. When people stopped going there they moved to a new area. The same scenario is going to play out in AoC.
If you're operating in your own node and PKing its citizens, people might stop trading with you. If you're operating in another node, those gatherers will just call stronger players to go mess you up. And if you have a corrupted player with you at most times, BHs will be hunting you at all times too.
And even if you somehow manage to completely avoid any kind of punishment or you designated PKer, you'll have to go grind off his corruption every single time he kills someone, because stat dampening will make him useless after just one kill. And if you remove corruption by killing him - you'll have to remove his massive XP debt, because he'd be "underleveled" and would need even more time to kill anyone. Both of those methods would stop your killings for some time, which is the point of the system.
And again though, if you have one weak dude attacking random gatherers, they'll just run away from him if they so chose to.
But the biggest mystery in all of this is still the gathering locations design. If the most lucrative gathering spots are near high lvl high value mobs - ya ain't PKing shit, because those places will be full of top lvl players who'd gladly wipe your little group of PKer friends. And if instead you'll be running around solo low value locations, you'd probably be PKing casual lowbies who'll give you even more corruption per kill and bring your designated killer even deeper into stat dampening.
One thing I have learned to be true over the years is when you don't ferret out all the ways something can be exploited, someone will take advantage of it.
These "little group of PKer friends." in BFA was typically 15 to 20 people and sometimes over 30. Will that happen in AoC? Don't know. Guess it depends on if there's enough motivation. "Being in the mood to farm people for no reason at all" was usually a good enough motivator for my pvp guilds. I see flaws with this system on a large scale
We don't have to agree but don't be quick to assume something can't happen just because you don't think it can. Go look at the start of any game and take note of all the loop holes found.
Now obviously Ashes might not be the same as L2 even if it has the same flagging system. But I'd assume it'll be even less similar to WoW with its genocidal faction war.
why hasnt anybody realized that pve players can grief too? white, pve players can grief as well. everybody is like "oh no!, here comes the evil pvper trying to show his e-peen, who has nothing better to do than perma gank poor innocent pve gatherers, we must ruin a very reasonable system to protect all the innocent pvers". guess what? there are MULTIPLE ways a pver can grief, and if you put penalties on the person who initiates the combat who is just trying to get rid of the griefer, even if the pve griefer defends himself, whats preventing pvers from perma griefing everyone else? at least, pvpers either fight you or not. just because you start the combat, doesnt mean you are a bad guy.
what if you get killed by 2-3 players, then you come back and pick em off one by one, why should i be penalized when im just killing those who gang banged me? what if they are ganking players and i try to help the ganked player and make it a bit more of a fair fight, why should i be penalized? now, someone is gonna say *nerd glasses on* erm if you help someone being ganked then you shouldnt be penalized... pls go away!
1- attackign first doesnt mean ur a d-bag. read the paragraphs above. pvpers need a way to defend against pve griefers too, or anybody really.
2- again, why shoudlnt the white player lose loot? he was griefing me and i attacked him. he ganked me with his friends and i came back and killed them. why u wanna punish me senpai. also consider that l2 was like that at first, you could even lose completed items, even dying vs mobs. in aoc you only lose mats, not completed items such as gear or pots. the system is fine, it makes dying meaningful, so people will be more careful.
3- if you are pvping with your friends, what prevents other people to go out and defend themselves with their friends? you arent the only person who can grup up, this system encourages that. also consider that you might not be alone in a farming area, you run the risk of random people coming to help or kill you if you go red.
wow uses a faction system, and fighting the other faction is part of the game story and lore.
is there any penalty in wow for killing someone from the other faction?
Totally agree with you. This will definitely be a thing under the current design. There isn't any disincentive for attackers. I think gatherers specifically will be the primary targets. It would not be good if there were more incentive to farm gatherers than to gather. Ofc we can't know for sure without testing, but even Intrepid seems to know this based on the dev discussion.
I envision groups of people, like you, roaming a region farming players. No risk. If they don't fight back, you can disengage. If they do fight back, bonus. And once they're purple, you can just keep knocking them off time after time until they leave the area out of frustration. Literally no way for the attackers to lose unless you choose to kill the green players, and even then, if you're group is designed for it, possibly no big deal.
Anyway, I wouldn't expect to convince the other people replying to your post. We'll just need to see how it goes.
Umm, no. Not sure what you are getting at.
exactly.
If you're trying to make a point and the meaning doesn't land then what was the point of talking in the first place if you aren't willing to explain it?
since there is no penalty in wow (and also in l2 essence), people are more likely to go on a murderfest. there will be less murderfest overall in aoc because of the penalties.
But... you know... Shadowbane also wanted ganking on a large scale: Play to Crush. We see how long that lasted.
We also see how long the focus on hardcore PvP focus lasted with for New World.
Large scale ganking needs to have enough players interested in that feature to support the maintenance of the specific game for more than a decade.
Agree.
If it turns out the current corruption system/PK rules aren't good enough, I trust Steven will try to improve them instead of watch his game fail.
But there an active dev discussion about this very issue. It seems like maybe they want to get it as right as possible before A2.
Though with AoC there is no in-between simply you are corrupted or not, which makes a kill a conscious decision, but since its on the extreme side with no leeway they cant give corruption for attacking since the system is extremely punishing and would just stop OWpvp in that element.
Issue with the video is again it doesn't take into account the game isn't WoW and is not faction based and you have huge penalties for being corrupted.
It doesn't take into account the game is more group oriented a group could simply allow a few of them to go red and kill them freely after making them lose more than they would have possibly gained.
And also this is a PvX game they want PvP, that is the point.
I agree there will be less murdering for those that don't want to deal with the ramifications. For those that see the penalty as a slight inconvenience that can be somewhat mitigated, or don't mind working it off, the ganking will continue. Just need to go larger scale and if you are in a pvp guild that shouldn't be a problem.
@Dygz have you heard the news? when nodes are destroyed we now will get another Open PvP zone for a few days while we get the treasures 👀
Give the guy a break, you are 100% baiting him.
Dygz is going to rub your face in it if/when it happens.