Is visual progression important?

worddog

I've seen some of the early founder cosmetics, they are really sick. I know Intrepid says the best skins will be earned in game, but that isn't necessarily up to them.

Vanity is subjective, and some of those founder skins looked really good. Imagine a world where max level players are walking around in cash shop armor, with cash shop weapons, with cash shop mounts, and cash shop pets, and cash shop houses, with cash shop freeholds, with cash shop titles.

I just don't want to see cool looking players with legendary armor and weapons being outshined by the low level players in comparably cool looking costumes.

What would really really suck is if I found a cash shop costume that I liked more than my own gear that I worked really hard for.

Ludullu

As you said, this is a subjective problem. What looks good to you might look like trash to others. Intrepid chose to have a sub+cosmetics monetization method and designed the game around that, so it'd be too late to change that at this point. Oh, and they'd have to delete all the previous cosmetics too, which would just lead to a class action lawsuit against them.

worddog

NiKr wrote: »

As you said, this is a subjective problem. What looks good to you might look like trash to others. Intrepid chose to have a sub+cosmetics monetization method and designed the game around that, so it'd be too late to change that at this point. Oh, and they'd have to delete all the previous cosmetics too, which would just lead to a class action lawsuit against them.

They'd have to lie at the very minimum. The only real way they could take a 180 is by putting founder skins into the game which they said they wouldn't. And I'm not saying they should.

I'm more wondering if they'll put a decent amount of effort into balancing it. Like if there is a single cosmetic in the cash shop that is more appealing than any legendary gear.

Like I know even myself I will just walk around in cash shop stuff if I like how it looks more than my own gear. I'd just be sad to see everyone doing that to the point I can't even tell what a legendary item looks like compared to a cash shop item.

Ludullu

worddog wrote: »

I'm more wondering if they'll put a decent amount of effort into balancing it. Like if there is a single cosmetic in the cash shop that is more appealing than any legendary gear.

Again though, how exactly would they control that in any way? They can't really control what people like. They claim that in-game stuff will look as good as shop stuff, if not better, but ultimately the players will decide what they like more.

worddog

NiKr wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

I'm more wondering if they'll put a decent amount of effort into balancing it. Like if there is a single cosmetic in the cash shop that is more appealing than any legendary gear.

Again though, how exactly would they control that in any way? They can't really control what people like. They claim that in-game stuff will look as good as shop stuff, if not better, but ultimately the players will decide what they like more.

Well they said the really good stuff like legendaries that you earn in game WILL look better, not even just on par. And yeah exactly what you said, that is a real challenge.

I'm okay with there not being visual progression as long as the game is fun but just food for thought you know.

Ludullu

worddog wrote: »

I'm okay with there not being visual progression as long as the game is fun but just food for thought you know.

Lore-wise there doesn't supposed to be any visual progression because we're preestablished people who're just moving into a new location. We're not just noname peasants getting born here.

Players could always just shit on anyone who has a store-bought cosmetic instead of an earned one. It's toxic as hell and wouldn't really change anything, but it might deter some people from wearing them.

worddog

NiKr wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

I'm okay with there not being visual progression as long as the game is fun but just food for thought you know.

Lore-wise there doesn't supposed to be any visual progression because we're preestablished people who're just moving into a new location. We're not just noname peasants getting born here.

Players could always just shit on anyone who has a store-bought cosmetic instead of an earned one. It's toxic as hell and wouldn't really change anything, but it might deter some people from wearing them.

My problem is just not even knowing its a cash shop cosmetic. Like if I'm not browsing through the shop I just wouldn't even know. If there was something that told other players it was from the cash shop in game I'd like that a lot.

Ludullu

worddog wrote: »

My problem is just not even knowing its a cash shop cosmetic. Like if I'm not browsing through the shop I just wouldn't even know. If there was something that told other players it was from the cash shop in game I'd like that a lot.

They could implement some kind of indicator on the player's nameplate (that's gonna be the "inspection" alternative), but I feel like they won't exactly because of the things I mentioned. The toxicity would be way higher than if players had to know which cosmetics were store-bought.

Noaani

Without reading a word of text in this thread other than the title: no.

SirChancelot

Noaani wrote: »

Without reading a word of text in this thread other than the title: no.

Agreed

I'm gonna find a couple of looks I like and stick to those, no matter what gear I get.

Hinotori

Visual progression of other players doesn't matter imo. My own visual progression is the only thing I'll focus on because its my character and I want them to look their best according to my own feeling and taste because I'm using the character to interact with the world. So it's the only one I care about.

akabear

I would definately want some visual distinction between grades of players, class of players and gear level of players.. how else can you pvp with any competency if you need to wait to be hit to see what you are facing!

Dygz

I don't really care about visual progression.
I prefer my characters to have a signature look - similar to Superman, Batman and Gandalf.
Primarily, I just want to quickly have a uniquely reconizable outfit - and keep that forever.
Changing outfits is mostly for parties and events.

CROW3

No, because ‘visual progression’ isn’t progression.

Especially when there’s an xmog system: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Appearance_slots

Summpwner

I think what they mean by saying the MTX aren't better is that there will be reskins available in-game. It'll still be apparent to interest parties that "omg they have the blue one!" but most people won't notice or care after the game is launched and explored.

worddog

CROW3 wrote: »

No, because ‘visual progression’ isn’t progression.

Especially when there’s an xmog system: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Appearance_slots

Yeah I assumed appearance just wouldn't really matter much in the game and that's fine if everything else they're working on turns out good.

worddog

Summpwner wrote: »

I think what they mean by saying the MTX aren't better is that there will be reskins available in-game. It'll still be apparent to interest parties that "omg they have the blue one!" but most people won't notice or care after the game is launched and explored.

If there are reskins than I'm totally happy with that. I just assumed when they said exclusive they meant that.

Tyranthraxus

Visual progression should be an *option*; Any complaint about cash shops ruining your levelling experience by seeing other people in really cool stuff just doesn't resonate, with me.

It's like going to a concert: You - as a member of the crowd - know about what to expect from the experience, and you get there at the same time as everyone else. However? Some people have really cool swag and outfits and jackets that have been customized or that you can tell they spent some money on. This doesn't mean they're any less/more of a fan, does it?

No. Some people just arrive from a background that provided them a chance to look better. Won't there be upper-classmen accompanying the Return? Won't there be people whose "backgrounds" might include coming from a royal court, or a pre-existing faction/group that held sway/influence on Sanctus?

They don't start with any inherent advantage - they just look better than you do. You should be able to play and progress and it'll be cool to see how your looted/reward gear will grow and change and evolve as you reach higher levels - but you shouldn't be able to enforce this for other players.

I'd rather see your armor/outfit creation, rather than whatever default-colored mis-match of armor lies underneath.

worddog

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

Visual progression should be an *option*; Any complaint about cash shops ruining your levelling experience by seeing other people in really cool stuff just doesn't resonate, with me.

It's like going to a concert: You - as a member of the crowd - know about what to expect from the experience, and you get there at the same time as everyone else. However? Some people have really cool swag and outfits and jackets that have been customized or that you can tell they spent some money on. This doesn't mean they're any less/more of a fan, does it?

No. Some people just arrive from a background that provided them a chance to look better. Won't there be upper-classmen accompanying the Return? Won't there be people whose "backgrounds" might include coming from a royal court, or a pre-existing faction/group that held sway/influence on Sanctus?

They don't start with any inherent advantage - they just look better than you do. You should be able to play and progress and it'll be cool to see how your looted/reward gear will grow and change and evolve as you reach higher levels - but you shouldn't be able to enforce this for other players.

I'd rather see your armor/outfit creation, rather than whatever default-colored mis-match of armor lies underneath.

The problem is that paying real money to look good isn't interesting. If every character I see looks like the main character than I just won't care what anyone looks like anymore. If everyone looks special no one looks special. And I think that takes away from people who actually earn cool looking gear through their achievements in the world.

Summpwner

worddog wrote: »

Summpwner wrote: »

I just assumed when they said exclusive they meant that.

The color will be exclusive, so I and they wouldn't say that in that event that they had lied.

worddog

Summpwner wrote: »

The color will be exclusive, so I and they wouldn't say that in that event that they had lied.

All I see on their shop is them saying the cosmetics are only available through the monthly packs. I don't see where they say reskins will be available.

Summpwner

worddog wrote: »

All I see on their shop is them saying the cosmetics are only available through the monthly packs. I don't see where they say reskins will be available.

Sorry if that was misleading, I meant to say that IF reskins are available in-game which I think is what will happen, it will likely be impossible to replicate 100%, likely with a unique color or some small detail that is otherwise unavailable. Thus, they were never lying and they also let players get their MTX fix for free through in-game efforts rather than paying real money.

worddog

Summpwner wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

All I see on their shop is them saying the cosmetics are only available through the monthly packs. I don't see where they say reskins will be available.

Sorry if that was misleading, I meant to say that IF reskins are available in-game which I think is what will happen, it will likely be impossible to replicate 100%, likely with a unique color or some small detail that is otherwise unavailable. Thus, they were never lying and they also let players get their MTX fix for free through in-game efforts rather than paying real money.

I'm alright with that, I just don't want the cash shop to be the end game for vanity items.

George_Black

I love true visual progression as it used to be before all the skin sales and $shops.
But the reality is that it's 2022 and cosmetic shops are a huge part of the revenue of videogames.
Without it modern games cant meet the budgets.

If somebody is up to the task let them make their own beautiful mmo, with deep gameplay, good balance and variety and on top of it, true visual progression and no gear skins. The rest is pointless talk.

Vyril

worddog wrote: »

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

Visual progression should be an *option*; Any complaint about cash shops ruining your levelling experience by seeing other people in really cool stuff just doesn't resonate, with me.

It's like going to a concert: You - as a member of the crowd - know about what to expect from the experience, and you get there at the same time as everyone else. However? Some people have really cool swag and outfits and jackets that have been customized or that you can tell they spent some money on. This doesn't mean they're any less/more of a fan, does it?

No. Some people just arrive from a background that provided them a chance to look better. Won't there be upper-classmen accompanying the Return? Won't there be people whose "backgrounds" might include coming from a royal court, or a pre-existing faction/group that held sway/influence on Sanctus?

They don't start with any inherent advantage - they just look better than you do. You should be able to play and progress and it'll be cool to see how your looted/reward gear will grow and change and evolve as you reach higher levels - but you shouldn't be able to enforce this for other players.

I'd rather see your armor/outfit creation, rather than whatever default-colored mis-match of armor lies underneath.

The problem is that paying real money to look good isn't interesting. If every character I see looks like the main character than I just won't care what anyone looks like anymore. If everyone looks special no one looks special. And I think that takes away from people who actually earn cool looking gear through their achievements in the world.

Looks are subjective.

There is other forms of displaying achievements.

worddog

Vyril wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

Visual progression should be an *option*; Any complaint about cash shops ruining your levelling experience by seeing other people in really cool stuff just doesn't resonate, with me.

It's like going to a concert: You - as a member of the crowd - know about what to expect from the experience, and you get there at the same time as everyone else. However? Some people have really cool swag and outfits and jackets that have been customized or that you can tell they spent some money on. This doesn't mean they're any less/more of a fan, does it?

No. Some people just arrive from a background that provided them a chance to look better. Won't there be upper-classmen accompanying the Return? Won't there be people whose "backgrounds" might include coming from a royal court, or a pre-existing faction/group that held sway/influence on Sanctus?

They don't start with any inherent advantage - they just look better than you do. You should be able to play and progress and it'll be cool to see how your looted/reward gear will grow and change and evolve as you reach higher levels - but you shouldn't be able to enforce this for other players.

I'd rather see your armor/outfit creation, rather than whatever default-colored mis-match of armor lies underneath.

The problem is that paying real money to look good isn't interesting. If every character I see looks like the main character than I just won't care what anyone looks like anymore. If everyone looks special no one looks special. And I think that takes away from people who actually earn cool looking gear through their achievements in the world.

Looks are subjective.

There is other forms of displaying achievements.

Displaying? I don't think so. Displaying is inherently visual. I'm including titles and everything when I say that. The real money cosmetics include like every visual aspect of the game.

Tyranthraxus

worddog wrote: »

The problem is that paying real money to look good isn't interesting. If every character I see looks like the main character than I just won't care what anyone looks like anymore. If everyone looks special no one looks special. And I think that takes away from people who actually earn cool looking gear through their achievements in the world.

What in the world are you talking about? Have you played MMO's before?

What about 2 years in, when there's been time for people to flesh out characters? Will everyone's customization and "main character"-ness be too much for you to handle?

Why care about where someone you've never met before and never heard of and may never come across again obtained what they are using for their appearance set of gear?

Yours truly has never understood the concern expressed by posts like these. In short, I guess I just feel like you're too concerned about what other people are wearing. There'll be a cash shop - it will exist. If you really, REALLY want to, you can spend time memorizing which fabric texture/coloring-scheme drops of a certain style of gear come from low, medium, and high-end raid bosses, and which ones came from the cash shop. At the end of the day, though?

What's it matter?

worddog

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

The problem is that paying real money to look good isn't interesting. If every character I see looks like the main character than I just won't care what anyone looks like anymore. If everyone looks special no one looks special. And I think that takes away from people who actually earn cool looking gear through their achievements in the world.

What in the world are you talking about? Have you played MMO's before?

What about 2 years in, when there's been time for people to flesh out characters? Will everyone's customization and "main character"-ness be too much for you to handle?

Why care about where someone you've never met before and never heard of and may never come across again obtained what they are using for their appearance set of gear?

Yours truly has never understood the concern expressed by posts like these. In short, I guess I just feel like you're too concerned about what other people are wearing. There'll be a cash shop - it will exist. If you really, REALLY want to, you can spend time memorizing which fabric texture/coloring-scheme drops of a certain style of gear come from low, medium, and high-end raid bosses, and which ones came from the cash shop. At the end of the day, though?

What's it matter?

It's not that it's bad it's just you can't have everything at once.

If everyone can look cool, than looking cool doesn't mean very much.

If not everyone can look cool, than people who look cool matter more.

There's a reason not everyone gets legendary armor and weapons, the exclusivity makes them more valuable.

CROW3

worddog wrote: »

It's not that it's bad it's just you can't have everything at once.

If everyone can look cool, than looking cool doesn't mean very much.

If not everyone can look cool, than people who look cool matter more.

There's a reason not everyone gets legendary armor and weapons, the exclusivity makes them more valuable.

However, the separation of ‘looking awesome’ and ‘being awesome’ is a core economic driver to sell you more ‘awesome looking’ visuals. The irony being the more you chase ‘looking awesome’ the less and less you focus on ‘being awesome.’

Interesting people don’t buy distressed jeans. Their jeans are torn because they do interesting things. If I want to make a buck, I just tap into a person who wants to be perceived as interesting, but isn’t interested in being what they want to be perceived as.

That separation is where you get ridiculous phrases like ‘visual progression.’

LordBlank

worddog wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

I'm okay with there not being visual progression as long as the game is fun but just food for thought you know.

Lore-wise there doesn't supposed to be any visual progression because we're preestablished people who're just moving into a new location. We're not just noname peasants getting born here.

Players could always just shit on anyone who has a store-bought cosmetic instead of an earned one. It's toxic as hell and wouldn't really change anything, but it might deter some people from wearing them.

My problem is just not even knowing its a cash shop cosmetic. Like if I'm not browsing through the shop I just wouldn't even know. If there was something that told other players it was from the cash shop in game I'd like that a lot.

I get where you at coming from but at the end of the day its cosmetic. If they don't have actual high-level geears then they can get their ass kicked while looking good. Also from what I've seen they've been tunning down the epicness of these cosmetic

worddog

CROW3 wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

It's not that it's bad it's just you can't have everything at once.

If everyone can look cool, than looking cool doesn't mean very much.

If not everyone can look cool, than people who look cool matter more.

There's a reason not everyone gets legendary armor and weapons, the exclusivity makes them more valuable.

However, the separation of ‘looking awesome’ and ‘being awesome’ is a core economic driver to sell you more ‘awesome looking’ visuals. The irony being the more you chase ‘looking awesome’ the less and less you focus on ‘being awesome.’

Interesting people don’t buy distressed jeans. Their jeans are torn because they do interesting things. If I want to make a buck, I just tap into a person who wants to be perceived as interesting, but isn’t interested in being what they want to be perceived as.

That separation is where you get ridiculous phrases like ‘visual progression.’

Well actual visual progression is literally just how your gear looks from level 1-50 and then from rare-legendary gear. Like that is a very real thing. Visual progression is a way to display power progression, they go hand in hand.