Lastly, it's ok to die as a red. Just dont have more than 3 PKs without doing a redemption quest to lower them to 0.
In L2 a red player would drop gear upon death only if they had 4+ PKs while corrupted.
Everything is connected, well thought out, and works.
Any amount of corruption allows a player to drop equipped gear upon death. The higher the corruption the greater the chances.[66] – Steven Sharif
15 kills is a very high number, not jus for a red player. Let's get that out of the way and come to some understanding.
I mean, if you're doing several PKs in a row, you gonna have yourself 30+ minutes of grinding, even if any given single kill would've only given you 5-10 mins of corruption.
It's just that when I look back at L2, people were usually in the high dozens of PKs even when they PKed rarely. And they'd go do the counter cleansing quest if they started feeling that the karma timer was getting a bit too high each time they PKed. And I feel like ~15 kills should be a good number before you'd "have to" do the quest.
Depending on different situations, that'd potentially be maybe 1-2 weeks of gameplay with a PK here and there.
But again, that kind of balance only works if the time to grind off is somewhat short. If it's way longer than L2's, as Steven said, then my whole suggestion is pointless by default.
Secondly, let's agree an attacker has the element of surprise to his favour, meaning that by the time the victim realizes what's going on, the victim will have lost HP.
Not to victim blame or anything, but imo in an owpvp game you gotta be aware of your surroundings. Especially if you're in a lucrative location. But yes, the victim will have the CC upper hand so it'll balance out the first strike. And I agree with all the other points.
No need for panic. As I have said many times "it works just fine". Too much panic over some lack of MMO experience by some guy on a video. That's all it is. People haven't played many open world pvp mmos. It's all about BGs and PvP zones or faction pvp. These are the rules they are used to. Anything new (or old) seems unthinkable
He alleged that he's played L2 for thousands of hours. And while I do agree with him on the "times have changed so the system gotta change too" point, I do think that Steven has already addressed that change in his design. It just needs to be properly balanced now.
But again, that kind of balance only works if the time to grind off is somewhat short. If it's way longer than L2's, as Steven said, then my whole suggestion is pointless by default.
So for clarity, if you had to GUESS the amount of time needed to work it off based on 'longer than L2', what are we looking at here? Asking for multiple friends.
I think that by the time of launch, all corruption related features will be copy paste from L2. No matter what breadcrumbs are being shared.
I wouldnt explain all of it's design on streams out of fear of competitors.
So for clarity, if you had to GUESS the amount of time needed to work it off based on 'longer than L2', what are we looking at here? Asking for multiple friends.
I'd prooooobably go with a ~30min for your first PK? Maybe 20, but the "significantly longer" wording from Steven kinda implies that it is in fact way longer. And if I'm remembering correctly, a solo location would give you enough XP at peak farming pace to remove one kill worth of karma in 2-3 mins (I thiiiink?). Party locations would usually mean just x6-8hp mobs which gave roughly the same amount of XP per group member that was then boosted by the group XP bonus, so if your pace was similar you'd clear it a bit faster.
I thiiink that's about right. But for the hell of it I'll go download the first private server I find and just double check, for both my sake and your data. I'll ping you when I'm done.
@Azherae so I checked a somewhat old version, so in theory this should be close to what Steven has in mind when he compares his values to AoC's. A PK gives you 240 karma (this is by a lvl5 char of a lvl3 char). ~300 XP removes one point. The very first mob in the game gives you 30xp.
An interesting fact that I never noticed before, you gotta get ~300XP in one kill to remove the point. I tried killing 10 first mobs but the point didn't go away (killed around 20 and still nothing).
I'll go check a much later update and at higher lvls to make sure that the scaling doesn't change.
Now let's go back to the PKing and if you can kill multiple people without being able to CC them.
I still think it's insane. lol it's just crazy to me. That a red can't use his full class kit, his CC, against players who are attacking him. That's a new one for me. But I trust you and Nikr when you say that it works.
Sounds like in L2, based on what you said, you could kind of spec or build yourself in a way that you're not as reliant on CC. Optimize in dps/tankiness/or non CC evasion type skills maybe. Ashes could have builds like that too, that's true. If you and your guild intend to contest content through pvp at times instead of always doing a dps race for the boss loot, I guess you spec some of your most likely to go red players, in a non CC optimized way.
The smallscale scenario you laid out, yeah I see what you're talking about. Multiple different ways situations could play out.
Your post makes me understand things about L2 a little bit better and how it applies to Ashes. But like Az's post just said, chance to drop gear starts at 1 kill. Time to work off corruption is significantly increased in Ashes compared to L2. Stat dampening in Ashes, not in L2 (right? not sure). Can't use any CC at all as a red in many, if not the vast majority of fights in Ashes. Seems like we're headed towards something pretty different in Ashes than in L2.
Sounds like in L2, based on what you said, you could kind of spec or build yourself in a way that you're not as reliant on CC. Optimize in dps/tankiness/or non CC evasion type skills maybe. Ashes could have builds like that too, that's true. If you and your guild intend to contest content through pvp at times instead of always doing a dps race for the boss loot, I guess you spec some of your most likely to go red players in that way.
L2 was balanced around party gameplay too, so barely any classes had self-healing, let alone powerful one. So pvp was usually a race of dps. And depending on your buffs and class matchup (and gear difference), ttk could go from a minute or two to pure seconds. And in terms of CCs, in general only bards had roots, only a few classes had silences (mainly mages), quite a few classes had slows and quite a few fighter classes had stuns of some sort (that is the target couldn't do anything while stunned).
If you were in a situation where ttk was closer to seconds than minutes - the stun was your only chance to win out against a fast attacker who shot first. Also, due to different resistances quite a few CCs had lowish chances of even proccing, so most fights either came down to dps or to luck with a powerful CC.
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Lastly, it's ok to die as a red. Just dont have more than 3 PKs without doing a redemption quest to lower them to 0.
In L2 a red player would drop gear upon death only if they had 4+ PKs while corrupted.
Everything is connected, well thought out, and works.
Any amount of corruption has a chance of dropping gear in Ashes.
Lastly, it's ok to die as a red. Just dont have more than 3 PKs without doing a redemption quest to lower them to 0.
In L2 a red player would drop gear upon death only if they had 4+ PKs while corrupted.
Everything is connected, well thought out, and works.
Any amount of corruption has a chance of dropping gear in Ashes.
We have heard that the more PK you have the higher the corruption points earned per new kill.
We have heard that there will be redemption activities to erase the PK count (similalry to L2).
I am not concerned about the slim chances of dropping gear due to a little bit amount of corruption (which signals low PK count).
Azherae so I checked a somewhat old version, so in theory this should be close to what Steven has in mind when he compares his values to AoC's. A PK gives you 240 karma (this is by a lvl5 char of a lvl3 char). ~300 XP removes one point. The very first mob in the game gives you 30xp.
An interesting fact that I never noticed before, you gotta get ~300XP in one kill to remove the point. I tried killing 10 first mobs but the point didn't go away (killed around 20 and still nothing).
I'll go check a much later update and at higher lvls to make sure that the scaling doesn't change.
Checked a later update. Had to go to a high rate server to check high lvl chars so the math is not quite exact, but still.
The karma gain was the same, 240. Btw, after 4 kills it doubled to 480 per kill. At max lvl 117kXP removed 1 point of karma. That 117kXP is ~0.001% of a lvl. And to get that amount of XP I had to go kill 51lvl mobs while I was 85lvl.
Ok, checked a mid rate server too (at low lvls) and now the points get removed at around 9kXP (lvl %-wise that value is all over the place so it seems to be more about XP gained than purely your char's relative lvl).
In other words, the higher your lvl the easier it is to remove karma, so it seems that my initial approximation about the timings was somewhat correct. And the "significantly longer" time would most likely be quite a bit over 10min.
And in terms of CCs, in general only bards had roots, only a few classes had silences (mainly mages), quite a few classes had slows and quite a few fighter classes had stuns of some sort (that is the target couldn't do anything while stunned).
Yeah I guess it just depends on how important CC is in Ashes. If it's not important, or you can viably build around it, then maybe it doesn't matter much. If CC is important in pvp, which it is in most mmos I'd say, then you and your group going red will be absolutely debilitating, immediately. Near suicidal in regards to pvp. If everyone knows that going red is debilitating, then that's exactly what people will have to do to contest content, go red. Because so many people won't think you'll actually go red.
You're a sitting duck unless it's viable to grind off the corruption before the people you killed come back, or some comparable random group shows up. Not sure what your groupmates that got more than 1 kill during the fight are gonna do. They kinda just need to log out, or just pick a direction and start running lol. All because a boss or mob or whatever was contested with pvp instead of a pve dps race.
The risk vs reward balance seems out of wack to me, but there's still a lot of unknowns. Maybe it's not. I could be completely wrong.
I see Nooani went off in that other thread about the open sea change. It kind of seems like Intrepid is taking a shot at pleasing all camps. Open world pvp on the ocean, a corruption system on land so harsh that it's effectively a pvp toggle (fake open world pvp). This is either genius, or will be a disaster. Net win for pvers either way though. Ocean content is much harder to actually contest. Wide open spaces, slower, plodding.
Depraved says 'Slow still works', but that might mean 'Damage+CC still works, both sides work'.
George says 'Shouldn't work, just like L2'.
Which of these is the case in L2?
If that's too binary a question, feel free to actually elaborate on it please.
bru not what i said T_T
lets say you have a skill that ONLY slows. it doesnt do damage. the skill wouldnt work on a green player.
if you have a skill that does damage and also slows (lets say if you level it to 2 or 3, like the cleric for example) the skill can be used on green players, dealing damage to them and slowing them. thats how it works in l2 and probably in aoc.
Yes, i do believe Damaging CC skills should still apply their Damage to non-combatants, and yes i also do believe making greens completely immune to CC is not the best way to handle the griefing possibilities, i would rather have greens have "more chance to resist CC or less duration of CC applied to them" than straight up immunity, aswell as things like: CCing a green has chance to make them de-aggro monsters or CCing a green has a chance to make the monsters on their aggro switch to the target who used CC on the green.
As for the doubts about the CC functionality in Lineage 2, throughout the absolute majority of versions of the game you could only use a CC skill on a non-combatant if the CC skill had upfront damage attached to it, Said CC damaging skill would always deal its damage(unless blocked/evaded(or resisted in case of magic damage) and always had the chance to apply its CC may it be Soft or Hard.
There was no Non-damaging CC skill in the game that was able to be used against non-combatants.
(very few non damaging debuffs could be used on non-combatants, like Stigma of Shilien)
As for the doubts regarding time to remove your karma gained by PK,
it varied alot throughout the versions of the game, starting quite harsh(specially on lower levels as it was quantity of exp based, something like 500 exp per 1 karma point on the first versions of the game) on lower levels(~lv15) taking something like ~12min~24min killing monsters 1x hp(on your level and giving ~500 exp)to remove your first PK karma(~240 karma)(something like ~3s~6s to kill each x1 hp monster requiring you to kill ~240 1x hp monster on your level 15 to remove it), dying would remove around ~240 karma points.
Karma scaling was something like 240 + 120(50%) per PK point(against same level enemies or higher level enemies), 240 +180(75%) (against enemies 4-8 levels lower) and 240+240(%100) (against enemies 9 levels or lower)
Example: Your first 3 PKs on players on you level without removing any points =
(240 + 360 + 480 or 1080 total karma points)
Considering the karma points being removed based on pure exp gained, higher level players that could take on higher level monsters which provided way more pure exp than lv15 character killing lv 15 monster which provided ~500 exp would remove their karma way faster(lv52 1x hp monsters for example give around ~5k exp)
As version went by not only players power in comparison to monsters rised, the exp required per karma point was decreased, when Steven says Ashes Corruption will be harsher than Lineage 2's Karma, i have no idea what to think because i simple don't know about which version of L2 he would be refering to.
lets say you have a skill that ONLY slows. it doesnt do damage. the skill wouldnt work on a green player.
if you have a skill that does damage and also slows (lets say if you level it to 2 or 3, like the cleric for example) the skill can be used on green players, dealing damage to them and slowing them. thats how it works in l2 and probably in aoc.
If that's going to be how it works then I wouldn't have much issue. That's reasonable. Presumably the purpose of this is to avoid people chain CCing others without the risk of accidentally killing them.
If reds can CC greens who attack them, but not greens who don't, that's reasonable to me. The red is still in a position where he loses tactical initiative. He can't CC the healer, because the healer hasn't attacked him. He can't use initiative and CC any other greens present until they attack him. Every green can essentially open with and use CCs at will, red has to wait for each individual green to attack him. As convoluted as this is, it's reasonable.
A player in any circumstance who can't use his own slotted CC abilities to protect himself is not reasonable to me. But if that's what Intrepid's going with, then that's probably the whole point, to make it not reasonable.
lets say you have a skill that ONLY slows. it doesnt do damage. the skill wouldnt work on a green player.
if you have a skill that does damage and also slows (lets say if you level it to 2 or 3, like the cleric for example) the skill can be used on green players, dealing damage to them and slowing them. thats how it works in l2 and probably in aoc.
If that's going to be how it works then I wouldn't have much issue. That's reasonable. Presumably the purpose of this is to avoid people chain CCing others without the risk of accidentally killing them.
If reds can CC greens who attack them, but not greens who don't, that's reasonable to me. The red is still in a position where he loses tactical initiative. He can't CC the healer, because the healer hasn't attacked him. He can't use initiative and CC any other greens present until they attack him. Every green can essentially open with and use CCs at will, red has to wait for each individual green to attack him. As convoluted as this is, it's reasonable.
A player in any circumstance who can't use his own slotted CC abilities to protect himself is not reasonable to me. But if that's what Intrepid's going with, then that's probably the whole point, to make it not reasonable.
pretty sure reds wont be able to c greens who attack them, unless they are at war or something or they use a damage skill that also cc.
red isnt really a desirable state to be in. its really discouraged.
pretty sure reds wont be able to c greens who attack them, unless they are at war or something or they use a damage skill that also cc.
red isnt really a desirable state to be in. its really discouraged.
I meant that as an either/or. Either the scenario I quoted you on of damaging CC's working on greens, or the scenario of a red defending himself. Either one seems reasonable. It's always been abundantly clear that being red is discouraged by all the other risks/penalties we already knew about, and rightly so. Not being able to defend oneself with ANY CCs hits a lil bit different though ya know.
Depraved says 'Slow still works', but that might mean 'Damage+CC still works, both sides work'.
George says 'Shouldn't work, just like L2'.
Which of these is the case in L2?
If that's too binary a question, feel free to actually elaborate on it please.
bru not what i said T_T
lets say you have a skill that ONLY slows. it doesnt do damage. the skill wouldnt work on a green player.
if you have a skill that does damage and also slows (lets say if you level it to 2 or 3, like the cleric for example) the skill can be used on green players, dealing damage to them and slowing them. thats how it works in l2 and probably in aoc.
The problem with this in Ashes is that players are probably going to have the ability to add damage components to all CC abilities via augments - and probably add CC to most damage abilities (not all at the same time, obviously).
If it works the same way as L2, it may as well just not exist at all - given Ashes ability system.
pretty sure reds wont be able to c greens who attack them, unless they are at war or something or they use a damage skill that also cc.
red isnt really a desirable state to be in. its really discouraged.
I meant that as an either/or. Either the scenario I quoted you on of damaging CC's working on greens, or the scenario of a red defending himself. Either one seems reasonable. It's always been abundantly clear that being red is discouraged by all the other risks/penalties we already knew about, and rightly so. Not being able to defend oneself with ANY CCs hits a lil bit different though ya know.
oyu can still use cc from abilities that do damage. the stat dampening is probably what will get you killed as red, not the inability to use all ur cc xD
Depraved says 'Slow still works', but that might mean 'Damage+CC still works, both sides work'.
George says 'Shouldn't work, just like L2'.
Which of these is the case in L2?
If that's too binary a question, feel free to actually elaborate on it please.
bru not what i said T_T
lets say you have a skill that ONLY slows. it doesnt do damage. the skill wouldnt work on a green player.
if you have a skill that does damage and also slows (lets say if you level it to 2 or 3, like the cleric for example) the skill can be used on green players, dealing damage to them and slowing them. thats how it works in l2 and probably in aoc.
The problem with this in Ashes is that players are probably going to have the ability to add damage components to all CC abilities via augments - and probably add CC to most damage abilities (not all at the same time, obviously).
If it works the same way as L2, it may as well just not exist at all - given Ashes ability system.
you dont know that yet, and given steven response in yt, you will still have abilities that cc and dont damage.
also, you could just increase the chance or duration of your cc via augments instead of adding more. or even replacing one effect. so if an ability damages and slows for 5 seconds, you could augment it to do more damage, or slow for 10 seconds, or root for 3 or stun if the target is already slowed. we dont know yet. and if you picked a different subclass, you would instead have critical chance, critical damage, bleed or posion options for augmenting the same skill
if you have a fear that doesnt do damage, maybe you could just increase the chance, duration, reduce cooldown, or replace fear with knockdown.
and by choosing 1 subclass, you dont have access to the other 7, so you wont be able to do as you said.
oyu can still use cc from abilities that do damage. the stat dampening is probably what will get you killed as red, not the inability to use all ur cc xD
Based on Steven's quote, you can't CC a green period, with any CC, damaging CC or not damaging. That's just based on the raw quote.
If after one kill, stat dampening is massive, then yeah it's the bigger liability. Otherwise, not being able to CC people who are trying to kill you is the bigger liability.
you dont know that yet, and given steven response in yt, you will still have abilities that cc and dont damage.
Sure, there will be some.
The point I am making is that this is more a result of player choice rather than developer choice.
also, you could just increase the chance or duration of your cc via augments instead of adding more. or even replacing one effect. so if an ability damages and slows for 5 seconds, you could augment it to do more damage, or slow for 10 seconds, or root for 3 or stun if the target is already slowed. we dont know yet.
I mean, this is my point.
Say you have a CC ability. Your augments are to increase the duration, or add damage to the ability.
What that really means is increase the duration, or add damage AND make it work on greens. To the kind of player that would attack greens, this is not really a decision.
And again, there are some other things developers could do. However, with literally tens of thousands of ability combinations, if the L2 system is just transposed to Ashes, players will simply build characters to circumvent it.
Not all players will do that, but not all players need to do it in order for the whole thing to not work all that well. This is especially true when you consider that in a game as primitive as L2, they simply didn't have the ability to make one aspect of an ability work and another aspect of it not work (based on my understanding of the games back end), whereas Ashes absolutely does have that ability.
you dont know that yet, and given steven response in yt, you will still have abilities that cc and dont damage.
Sure, there will be some.
The point I am making is that this is more a result of player choice rather than developer choice.
also, you could just increase the chance or duration of your cc via augments instead of adding more. or even replacing one effect. so if an ability damages and slows for 5 seconds, you could augment it to do more damage, or slow for 10 seconds, or root for 3 or stun if the target is already slowed. we dont know yet.
I mean, this is my point.
Say you have a CC ability. Your augments are to increase the duration, or add damage to the ability.
What that really means is increase the duration, or add damage AND make it work on greens. To the kind of player that would attack greens, this is not really a decision.
And again, there are some other things developers could do. However, with literally tens of thousands of ability combinations, if the L2 system is just transposed to Ashes, players will simply build characters to circumvent it.
Not all players will do that, but not all players need to do it in order for the whole thing to not work all that well. This is especially true when you consider that in a game as primitive as L2, they simply didn't have the ability to make one aspect of an ability work and another aspect of it not work (based on my understanding of the games back end), whereas Ashes absolutely does have that ability.
if they intend players to not be able to cc greens, then i doubt they gonna add all those augment options ._. and its a devs choice if they add them or not. you might have some for sure, but not on every ility, probably not in most of them. we will have to wait until we see the augment system, but im pretty sure they will implement it in a way that follows the design of "you cant cc a green player".
who said it was impossible to make one aspect of the ability work and another aspect not work? you just code it the way you want...theres no technical limitation to that
if they intend players to not be able to cc greens, then i doubt they gonna add all those augment options ._. and its a devs choice if they add them or not. you might have some for sure, but not on every ility, probably not in most of them. we will have to wait until we see the augment system, but im pretty sure they will implement it in a way that follows the design
This would severely degrade the level of customization the developers ca offer players.
I mean, of the 8 tank abilities we know of so far, three of them already fit the above concern - and that is BEFORE we have any augments, it's just from leveling up the abilities.
To say this wouldn't happen is naive
who said it was impossible to make one aspect of the ability work and another aspect not work? you just code it the way you want...theres no technical limitation to that
I mean, not really.
If you develop your game with a single check to see if a given ability hits or misses, you dont then just go and add in a check for each effect of the ability. This takes developer time (money), and will result in an increased compute cost (money). The chances that attempting this change will break something else are very close to 100%.
In order to have individual checks for each effect in an ability, you kind of want to write that in from the very beginning.
if they intend players to not be able to cc greens, then i doubt they gonna add all those augment options ._. and its a devs choice if they add them or not. you might have some for sure, but not on every ility, probably not in most of them. we will have to wait until we see the augment system, but im pretty sure they will implement it in a way that follows the design
This would severely degrade the level of customization the developers ca offer players.
I mean, of the 8 tank abilities we know of so far, three of them already fit the above concern - and that is BEFORE we have any augments, it's just from leveling up the abilities.
To say this wouldn't happen is naive
who said it was impossible to make one aspect of the ability work and another aspect not work? you just code it the way you want...theres no technical limitation to that
I mean, not really.
If you develop your game with a single check to see if a given ability hits or misses, you dont then just go and add in a check for each effect of the ability. This takes developer time (money), and will result in an increased compute cost (money). The chances that attempting this change will break something else are very close to 100%.
In order to have individual checks for each effect in an ability, you kind of want to write that in from the very beginning.
Ashes will have that - it kind of needs to.
lmao i swear you just like arguing for no reason other than arguing. you literally have no idea what you are saying
lmao i swear you just like arguing for no reason other than arguing. you literally have no idea what you are saying
I'll try it in a more simple manner.
3 out of 8 tank skills have the ability to bypass no CC'ing greens if Ashes follows L2's sysmte directly.
Since we are expecting around 40 abilities per class, if we assume the ratio continues, that means tanks will have 15 abilities that are able to deal damage and also CC the target - meaning they will be able to spec with 15 CC's that work on greens.
And this is BEFORE we start looking at augments - so this number will go higher. Even if I have overestimated it at this point, augments will see it be higher than this.
So, with 15 available abilities that can CC a green available to tanks (all tanks, as this is without augments and so pre-subclass selection), what purpose would a mechanic that is so easily circumvented actually serve?
I mean, tanks will be able to spec in a manner where every ability has CC attached to it, I guarantee you.
I get that it worked this was in L2, and i get that you may not be able to u understand anything working any way other than how it worked in L2. However, aspects of Ashes that are different from how they were in L2 mean other aspects may need to be changed in order to fit.
Since players have far more control over how much CC they have, and indeed what abilities have that CC, having a mechanic where greens are immune to CC from players unless that CC also has a damage component means greens are simply not immune to CC, because most players will simply opt to attach damage to CC abilities, or CC to damage abilities in order to get around said rule.
Now, I know you want to go back to your "but the developers could just not put in those augments and upgrades to those abilities". To this I say - actually, they cant really do that.
There will be about 320 base abilities in the game. The thing is, each of those abilities will have around 30 different ways to alter it. When you consider that abilities players have can all be reduced down to deal damage, remove damage or CC, the idea that they could come up with 30 unique means to upgrade 320 abilities without combining dealing damage and CC is simply unreasonable.
lmao i swear you just like arguing for no reason other than arguing. you literally have no idea what you are saying
I'll try it in a more simple manner.
3 out of 8 tank skills have the ability to bypass no CC'ing greens if Ashes follows L2's sysmte directly.
Since we are expecting around 40 abilities per class, if we assume the ratio continues, that means tanks will have 15 abilities that are able to deal damage and also CC the target - meaning they will be able to spec with 15 CC's that work on greens.
And this is BEFORE we start looking at augments - so this number will go higher. Even if I have overestimated it at this point, augments will see it be higher than this.
So, with 15 available abilities that can CC a green available to tanks (all tanks, as this is without augments and so pre-subclass selection), what purpose would a mechanic that is so easily circumvented actually serve?
I mean, tanks will be able to spec in a manner where every ability has CC attached to it, I guarantee you.
I get that it worked this was in L2, and i get that you may not be able to u understand anything working any way other than how it worked in L2. However, aspects of Ashes that are different from how they were in L2 mean other aspects may need to be changed in order to fit.
Since players have far more control over how much CC they have, and indeed what abilities have that CC, having a mechanic where greens are immune to CC from players unless that CC also has a damage component means greens are simply not immune to CC, because most players will simply opt to attach damage to CC abilities, or CC to damage abilities in order to get around said rule.
Now, I know you want to go back to your "but the developers could just not put in those augments and upgrades to those abilities". To this I say - actually, they cant really do that.
There will be about 320 base abilities in the game. The thing is, each of those abilities will have around 30 different ways to alter it. When you consider that abilities players have can all be reduced down to deal damage, remove damage or CC, the idea that they could come up with 30 unique means to upgrade 320 abilities without combining dealing damage and CC is simply unreasonable.
you are just assuming the amount of abilities that will be able to do damage and cc. we havent seen them...and you are also assuming that there will be augments that will allow the tanks to do it.
you are also not considering that you need to put more than 1 point in certain abilities to be able to do damage and cc, meaning you have less points for other skills, unless you decide not to get any passives or weapon skills. you also forgot that there is a limit in how many skills you can augment. we dont know for sure if someone will be able to have 15 abilities that can do damage and cc, which is unlikely given how the system will work. how about we wait until we see all the abilities and augments then complain or argue more?
Comments
Any amount of corruption allows a player to drop equipped gear upon death. The higher the corruption the greater the chances.[66] – Steven Sharif
(this is a semi-recent change)
It's just that when I look back at L2, people were usually in the high dozens of PKs even when they PKed rarely. And they'd go do the counter cleansing quest if they started feeling that the karma timer was getting a bit too high each time they PKed. And I feel like ~15 kills should be a good number before you'd "have to" do the quest.
Depending on different situations, that'd potentially be maybe 1-2 weeks of gameplay with a PK here and there.
But again, that kind of balance only works if the time to grind off is somewhat short. If it's way longer than L2's, as Steven said, then my whole suggestion is pointless by default. Not to victim blame or anything, but imo in an owpvp game you gotta be aware of your surroundings. Especially if you're in a lucrative location. But yes, the victim will have the CC upper hand so it'll balance out the first strike. And I agree with all the other points. He alleged that he's played L2 for thousands of hours. And while I do agree with him on the "times have changed so the system gotta change too" point, I do think that Steven has already addressed that change in his design. It just needs to be properly balanced now.
So for clarity, if you had to GUESS the amount of time needed to work it off based on 'longer than L2', what are we looking at here? Asking for multiple friends.
I wouldnt explain all of it's design on streams out of fear of competitors.
I thiiink that's about right. But for the hell of it I'll go download the first private server I find and just double check, for both my sake and your data. I'll ping you when I'm done.
An interesting fact that I never noticed before, you gotta get ~300XP in one kill to remove the point. I tried killing 10 first mobs but the point didn't go away (killed around 20 and still nothing).
I'll go check a much later update and at higher lvls to make sure that the scaling doesn't change.
I still think it's insane. lol it's just crazy to me. That a red can't use his full class kit, his CC, against players who are attacking him. That's a new one for me. But I trust you and Nikr when you say that it works.
Sounds like in L2, based on what you said, you could kind of spec or build yourself in a way that you're not as reliant on CC. Optimize in dps/tankiness/or non CC evasion type skills maybe. Ashes could have builds like that too, that's true. If you and your guild intend to contest content through pvp at times instead of always doing a dps race for the boss loot, I guess you spec some of your most likely to go red players, in a non CC optimized way.
The smallscale scenario you laid out, yeah I see what you're talking about. Multiple different ways situations could play out.
Your post makes me understand things about L2 a little bit better and how it applies to Ashes. But like Az's post just said, chance to drop gear starts at 1 kill. Time to work off corruption is significantly increased in Ashes compared to L2. Stat dampening in Ashes, not in L2 (right? not sure). Can't use any CC at all as a red in many, if not the vast majority of fights in Ashes. Seems like we're headed towards something pretty different in Ashes than in L2.
If you were in a situation where ttk was closer to seconds than minutes - the stun was your only chance to win out against a fast attacker who shot first. Also, due to different resistances quite a few CCs had lowish chances of even proccing, so most fights either came down to dps or to luck with a powerful CC.
Any amount of corruption has a chance of dropping gear in Ashes.
We have heard that the more PK you have the higher the corruption points earned per new kill.
We have heard that there will be redemption activities to erase the PK count (similalry to L2).
I am not concerned about the slim chances of dropping gear due to a little bit amount of corruption (which signals low PK count).
We will see.
The karma gain was the same, 240. Btw, after 4 kills it doubled to 480 per kill. At max lvl 117kXP removed 1 point of karma. That 117kXP is ~0.001% of a lvl. And to get that amount of XP I had to go kill 51lvl mobs while I was 85lvl.
Ok, checked a mid rate server too (at low lvls) and now the points get removed at around 9kXP (lvl %-wise that value is all over the place so it seems to be more about XP gained than purely your char's relative lvl).
In other words, the higher your lvl the easier it is to remove karma, so it seems that my initial approximation about the timings was somewhat correct. And the "significantly longer" time would most likely be quite a bit over 10min.
Yeah I guess it just depends on how important CC is in Ashes. If it's not important, or you can viably build around it, then maybe it doesn't matter much. If CC is important in pvp, which it is in most mmos I'd say, then you and your group going red will be absolutely debilitating, immediately. Near suicidal in regards to pvp. If everyone knows that going red is debilitating, then that's exactly what people will have to do to contest content, go red. Because so many people won't think you'll actually go red.
You're a sitting duck unless it's viable to grind off the corruption before the people you killed come back, or some comparable random group shows up. Not sure what your groupmates that got more than 1 kill during the fight are gonna do. They kinda just need to log out, or just pick a direction and start running lol. All because a boss or mob or whatever was contested with pvp instead of a pve dps race.
The risk vs reward balance seems out of wack to me, but there's still a lot of unknowns. Maybe it's not. I could be completely wrong.
I see Nooani went off in that other thread about the open sea change. It kind of seems like Intrepid is taking a shot at pleasing all camps. Open world pvp on the ocean, a corruption system on land so harsh that it's effectively a pvp toggle (fake open world pvp). This is either genius, or will be a disaster. Net win for pvers either way though. Ocean content is much harder to actually contest. Wide open spaces, slower, plodding.
We will see. All those announcements of increased difficulty for Reds plus the BH system will protect innocent players for sure.
bru not what i said T_T
lets say you have a skill that ONLY slows. it doesnt do damage. the skill wouldnt work on a green player.
if you have a skill that does damage and also slows (lets say if you level it to 2 or 3, like the cleric for example) the skill can be used on green players, dealing damage to them and slowing them. thats how it works in l2 and probably in aoc.
As for the doubts about the CC functionality in Lineage 2, throughout the absolute majority of versions of the game you could only use a CC skill on a non-combatant if the CC skill had upfront damage attached to it, Said CC damaging skill would always deal its damage(unless blocked/evaded(or resisted in case of magic damage) and always had the chance to apply its CC may it be Soft or Hard.
There was no Non-damaging CC skill in the game that was able to be used against non-combatants.
(very few non damaging debuffs could be used on non-combatants, like Stigma of Shilien)
As for the doubts regarding time to remove your karma gained by PK,
it varied alot throughout the versions of the game, starting quite harsh(specially on lower levels as it was quantity of exp based, something like 500 exp per 1 karma point on the first versions of the game) on lower levels(~lv15) taking something like ~12min~24min killing monsters 1x hp(on your level and giving ~500 exp)to remove your first PK karma(~240 karma)(something like ~3s~6s to kill each x1 hp monster requiring you to kill ~240 1x hp monster on your level 15 to remove it), dying would remove around ~240 karma points.
Karma scaling was something like 240 + 120(50%) per PK point(against same level enemies or higher level enemies), 240 +180(75%) (against enemies 4-8 levels lower) and 240+240(%100) (against enemies 9 levels or lower)
Example: Your first 3 PKs on players on you level without removing any points =
(240 + 360 + 480 or 1080 total karma points)
Considering the karma points being removed based on pure exp gained, higher level players that could take on higher level monsters which provided way more pure exp than lv15 character killing lv 15 monster which provided ~500 exp would remove their karma way faster(lv52 1x hp monsters for example give around ~5k exp)
As version went by not only players power in comparison to monsters rised, the exp required per karma point was decreased, when Steven says Ashes Corruption will be harsher than Lineage 2's Karma, i have no idea what to think because i simple don't know about which version of L2 he would be refering to.
Aren't we all sinners?
If that's going to be how it works then I wouldn't have much issue. That's reasonable. Presumably the purpose of this is to avoid people chain CCing others without the risk of accidentally killing them.
If reds can CC greens who attack them, but not greens who don't, that's reasonable to me. The red is still in a position where he loses tactical initiative. He can't CC the healer, because the healer hasn't attacked him. He can't use initiative and CC any other greens present until they attack him. Every green can essentially open with and use CCs at will, red has to wait for each individual green to attack him. As convoluted as this is, it's reasonable.
A player in any circumstance who can't use his own slotted CC abilities to protect himself is not reasonable to me. But if that's what Intrepid's going with, then that's probably the whole point, to make it not reasonable.
pretty sure reds wont be able to c greens who attack them, unless they are at war or something or they use a damage skill that also cc.
red isnt really a desirable state to be in. its really discouraged.
I meant that as an either/or. Either the scenario I quoted you on of damaging CC's working on greens, or the scenario of a red defending himself. Either one seems reasonable. It's always been abundantly clear that being red is discouraged by all the other risks/penalties we already knew about, and rightly so. Not being able to defend oneself with ANY CCs hits a lil bit different though ya know.
The problem with this in Ashes is that players are probably going to have the ability to add damage components to all CC abilities via augments - and probably add CC to most damage abilities (not all at the same time, obviously).
If it works the same way as L2, it may as well just not exist at all - given Ashes ability system.
oyu can still use cc from abilities that do damage. the stat dampening is probably what will get you killed as red, not the inability to use all ur cc xD
you dont know that yet, and given steven response in yt, you will still have abilities that cc and dont damage.
also, you could just increase the chance or duration of your cc via augments instead of adding more. or even replacing one effect. so if an ability damages and slows for 5 seconds, you could augment it to do more damage, or slow for 10 seconds, or root for 3 or stun if the target is already slowed. we dont know yet. and if you picked a different subclass, you would instead have critical chance, critical damage, bleed or posion options for augmenting the same skill
if you have a fear that doesnt do damage, maybe you could just increase the chance, duration, reduce cooldown, or replace fear with knockdown.
and by choosing 1 subclass, you dont have access to the other 7, so you wont be able to do as you said.
Based on Steven's quote, you can't CC a green period, with any CC, damaging CC or not damaging. That's just based on the raw quote.
If after one kill, stat dampening is massive, then yeah it's the bigger liability. Otherwise, not being able to CC people who are trying to kill you is the bigger liability.
The point I am making is that this is more a result of player choice rather than developer choice.
I mean, this is my point.
Say you have a CC ability. Your augments are to increase the duration, or add damage to the ability.
What that really means is increase the duration, or add damage AND make it work on greens. To the kind of player that would attack greens, this is not really a decision.
And again, there are some other things developers could do. However, with literally tens of thousands of ability combinations, if the L2 system is just transposed to Ashes, players will simply build characters to circumvent it.
Not all players will do that, but not all players need to do it in order for the whole thing to not work all that well. This is especially true when you consider that in a game as primitive as L2, they simply didn't have the ability to make one aspect of an ability work and another aspect of it not work (based on my understanding of the games back end), whereas Ashes absolutely does have that ability.
In the comments section
if they intend players to not be able to cc greens, then i doubt they gonna add all those augment options ._. and its a devs choice if they add them or not. you might have some for sure, but not on every ility, probably not in most of them. we will have to wait until we see the augment system, but im pretty sure they will implement it in a way that follows the design of "you cant cc a green player".
who said it was impossible to make one aspect of the ability work and another aspect not work? you just code it the way you want...theres no technical limitation to that
I mean, of the 8 tank abilities we know of so far, three of them already fit the above concern - and that is BEFORE we have any augments, it's just from leveling up the abilities.
To say this wouldn't happen is naive
I mean, not really.
If you develop your game with a single check to see if a given ability hits or misses, you dont then just go and add in a check for each effect of the ability. This takes developer time (money), and will result in an increased compute cost (money). The chances that attempting this change will break something else are very close to 100%.
In order to have individual checks for each effect in an ability, you kind of want to write that in from the very beginning.
Ashes will have that - it kind of needs to.
just use another skill
lmao i swear you just like arguing for no reason other than arguing. you literally have no idea what you are saying
3 out of 8 tank skills have the ability to bypass no CC'ing greens if Ashes follows L2's sysmte directly.
Since we are expecting around 40 abilities per class, if we assume the ratio continues, that means tanks will have 15 abilities that are able to deal damage and also CC the target - meaning they will be able to spec with 15 CC's that work on greens.
And this is BEFORE we start looking at augments - so this number will go higher. Even if I have overestimated it at this point, augments will see it be higher than this.
So, with 15 available abilities that can CC a green available to tanks (all tanks, as this is without augments and so pre-subclass selection), what purpose would a mechanic that is so easily circumvented actually serve?
I mean, tanks will be able to spec in a manner where every ability has CC attached to it, I guarantee you.
I get that it worked this was in L2, and i get that you may not be able to u understand anything working any way other than how it worked in L2. However, aspects of Ashes that are different from how they were in L2 mean other aspects may need to be changed in order to fit.
Since players have far more control over how much CC they have, and indeed what abilities have that CC, having a mechanic where greens are immune to CC from players unless that CC also has a damage component means greens are simply not immune to CC, because most players will simply opt to attach damage to CC abilities, or CC to damage abilities in order to get around said rule.
Now, I know you want to go back to your "but the developers could just not put in those augments and upgrades to those abilities". To this I say - actually, they cant really do that.
There will be about 320 base abilities in the game. The thing is, each of those abilities will have around 30 different ways to alter it. When you consider that abilities players have can all be reduced down to deal damage, remove damage or CC, the idea that they could come up with 30 unique means to upgrade 320 abilities without combining dealing damage and CC is simply unreasonable.
you are just assuming the amount of abilities that will be able to do damage and cc. we havent seen them...and you are also assuming that there will be augments that will allow the tanks to do it.
you are also not considering that you need to put more than 1 point in certain abilities to be able to do damage and cc, meaning you have less points for other skills, unless you decide not to get any passives or weapon skills. you also forgot that there is a limit in how many skills you can augment. we dont know for sure if someone will be able to have 15 abilities that can do damage and cc, which is unlikely given how the system will work. how about we wait until we see all the abilities and augments then complain or argue more?